Compassion Fatigue Podcast

What happens is the next day or the next situation you’re in, you’re not as effective, you’re overwhelmed, your energy is drained, and so you’re not bringing your best to every situation because you’re letting yourself stay in that place of too much care. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

Excellent to have you along. Kathy Knochel and Brian Sutter are with me here today. Great to have you here. Glad to be here. Good to be here. We’re going to talk about compassion fatigue. And so just a really important topic, something that you two deal with certainly in the line of work that you do, but everybody at some level does, and I’d like to set up a couple of different rings. 

Certainly, our health care workers right now know that compassion fatigue is real. And let me just stop and say a huge heartfelt thanks. They have cared for others in the midst of a pandemic in the hardest situations, and it’s taken a toll. For sure. Certainly, this topic applies to them. And let me go out another ring, okay? 

Because there’s others that are rising up to the challenge, I think, of our teachers right now. Yes. Understaffed. And so, we have this group here that is very active and a lot of other professions like that. And the jobs that they’ve done and loved and cared for now are so much more complicated. 

The teacher, not only do you teach the students in your class, but you’ve also got to be prepared to teach those that aren’t able to be in your class. It’s just endless. And so, when we think of that ring, teachers and many other professionals. And then let’s go out another ring that’s very real and that’s community. 

We’re all engaging in a community, and we are required at some level to have compassion to navigate these days and stamina. And some of those things can wane. And it makes a difference in how we engage our communities. Oh, for sure. Yeah, even the local community, your neighbors, even the church community who you’re interacting with there and you’ve got different needs and different opinions. And how do you love each other in the midst of already being worn out? 

And so yeah, for sure, those different rings make sense. So, let’s start with compassion fatigue. I would love your thoughts on what it is. I think we can probably piece together, but I’m sure you’d provide some nuances that would be helpful for us. So, maybe just as a starting point would be differentiating a little bit. Burnout versus compassion fatigue. Burnout’s been around for a long time. That’s a term that most would have known for a long time. And that’s basically this idea that at your job, you’re just getting tired and worn out. And because of the job or the setting, that’s taking a toll. Whereas compassion fatigue really is more about the work you’re doing and particularly being around work that’s really emotionally exhausting. You’re hearing difficult things. You’re around, you’re seeing difficult things and that just wears your body and your emotions out, just overloading your ability to process that with the speed with which it’s coming in. I think that’s an important distinction, Kathy. 

Yes, absolutely. I think that word fatigue is really important to think about. It’s just that piece of being really tired, just feeling sometimes when there’s a lot of stress, our bodies are in that fight or flight mode and that really drains our energy and so it’s just that tiredness of being compassionate and showing empathy. 

Yeah. And so, we’re going to keep really at the center of our understanding of the term here for this podcast is this emotional toll because compassion and care is required. And that is what is at crisis. At some level, all of us have an ability to have compassion and empathy for others, and that’s part of just how we’re hardwired. 

Some of us have more or less than that, but that draws you into difficulties and hurts that you see others experiencing. And then that difficulty, when it comes to a level that’s overwhelming, whether that’s our capacity to handle it or it’s just anybody’s capacity to handle it would overwhelm us. And that puts you in a position where it’s possible to experience this, what we call compassion fatigue. 

So, let’s start with that compassion part. Brian, as you mentioned the overload, Kathy, we are confronted with brokenness in volume and sheer volume today, and I think unprecedented measures. That’s got to have some impact on the psyche. Am I right? Absolutely. We have all of the hurts and hard things and traumas and natural disasters right at our fingertips all day. 

And so, we all have this level of taking in just so much hard information and then not always knowing what to do with it, which certainly adds to that stress and fatigue. What can the human person handle? Brian, is there a ceiling to our compassion? There is, particularly when we look at it through a lens of what can I do? 

It is just overwhelming because so often the answer is I don’t know. How can I help when I think about what’s going on across the globe or even across the country that it feels so paralyzing and then it just kind of feels stuck. So, there is a level at which we just give up and just say, there’s nothing I can do. 

And it feels hopeless and overwhelming and therefore I do think part of that is being able to recognize where we’re at on that scale and then being able to find ways to process the overwhelming amount of information as well as the overwhelming amount of hurt and tragedy that we’re seeing around us. If we can find ways to somehow digest some of that and refuel us so that we have some degree of compassion. 

And that’s a really tricky thing when it just keeps hitting you and keeps hitting you and keeps hitting you. And it’s just overwhelming the system and turning it off in some ways. And I know from personal experiences, I process how I do that. Not caring is a great way to deal with it. 

And I think that’s the crossroads of the crisis, right? If I can pull back my care, I’m able to handle it. But I just can’t believe that’s the answer. Sometimes the things that are protective, the things that help us feel better and even walk through the day aren’t necessarily wise or what’s best for us, but they certainly make sense. 

And that’s a tricky balance too, to be able to acknowledge that we are human and at some point, you are going to get overwhelmed and recognize that’s not where we want to stay, but also like, that makes sense to connect with that, but also then to say, what does it look like to move to a different place? 

And so, here’s what I want you both to help me with. How do I hang on to care and do it in a healthy manner? Okay. And I want you to reach into your own experience because you deal with crises every day. I don’t know, four to 10 crises every day, right? And at some level, you both have to care deeply, and yet not be overwhelmed.  

I think one of the important things there is in order to stay in that place of caring and not move to that place of being completely overwhelmed, the first step is just really having to know yourself, understand what your signs are, that things are starting to get a little bit more overwhelming. Hey, I’m responding in a lot more irritable tone to people or I’m starting to feel physically sick. 

And so just being able to really know what’s going on with yourself as a good identifier of how I am handling all of the things I need to handle. And when those indicators come, Brian, what adjustments can be made? Yeah. Well, I think there’s so many in it. And again, like Kathy’s talking about there, part of that would be to recognize for yourself, what are the things that tend to be helpful? 

What are the things that tend to be restorative? And to begin to make sure that those are purposefully a part of day to day life and one of the challenges is almost always those are the first things to go when we’re under stress, when we’ve got a lot going on, you cut out those things that maybe are small, but are really essential to keeping you grounded day in and day out. 

And if you do that for a day, it’s not a big deal, but if you do that for a few months, it just takes a real toll. And I think like Kathy’s saying, too, if you’re a person who is really an empathetic person, which is a wonderful gift from God. That’s probably going to put you in a place where you’re going to be around a lot more of these difficulties and challenges. 

And to just recognize that and find ways even to be able to connect empathetically with the pain, but also give yourself some distance so that their story doesn’t become your story, which is really a challenge if you’re a deeply empathetic individual. Kathy, I’d love to hear how you do that, how you keep that proper distance and what does that look like? 

You know, the word that always comes to mind there for me is this term of almost being able to compartmentalize different things. And so, for me, I learned this early in my career. Things at work need to stay at work. If I’m letting my entire ride home from work be just turning over the events or the stories I heard through the day, or if I’m focusing on them afterwards, that is not helpful and really, I’m just staying in that place with my body being more stressed and overwhelmed. And so just that ability to purposely disconnect from things and focus on things that are better for me. So, whether that’s activities to do or sometimes listening to music or that sort of thing to just purposely connect and recharge.  

So let me be the voice of a person who struggles with that. And then I’d like you to respond to that, Kathy. I think for those who care, and we know we should care. Right. And so, there’s a conscience. And when the voice in our head says, we don’t care, a great deal of conviction comes upon us. So, then we care deeply again, and we struggle with the fatigue. So, as you’re on your way, you compartmentalize, and you say, I’m going to leave that at work. For some, that voice of you don’t care creeps in that moment. You’ve had to work through that, Kathy. Absolutely. So, I’d like you to speak to that voice. What does it look like to care? 

There’s a cost to caring, and I don’t even say that in a bad way, but the cost can be of how it impacts me or other helpers in their profession and how it affects them. And then what happens is the next day or the next situation you’re in, you’re not as effective. You’re overwhelmed. Your energy is drained. 

And so, you’re not bringing your best to every situation because you’re letting yourself stay in that place of too much care and concern. Okay. That’s how I heard it. Because you care, you hold it at a distance, which I think is a really important voice against the accusation, right? Absolutely. And I think in many ways, what you’re doing there is redefining what caring means or what helping looks like. 

Exactly. And I think that’s so important to be able to do that and even to be able to recognize that voice as the accuser. rather than the Spirit, which I think, again, is really tricky to be able to do that. But you see, if the consequences take you in a place that’s different than who you desire to be or who the Scriptures would say, this is who we want to be, then that gives us good reason to believe that something else other than the Spirit is at work here. 

And therefore, we can have great confidence when it comes up and you don’t care. You know what? I do care. And part of me caring, part of me being ready to step back into the battle zone tomorrow requires that I give this to the Lord, I recognize that He is sovereign and that He can care in ways that I can’t. 

He doesn’t need me to always be on because He is able to be on and He’s got other people that can fit into that and fill in those gaps. And right now, it’s probably better for me to sit and listen to a song or do a Sudoku puzzle rather than something else that’s going to continue to deplete me in a way that helps me disconnect from God and disconnect from being a caring, loving individual. 

It really requires an element of faith, doesn’t it? Yes. Kathy, speak more about that. So, one piece that Brian had said is really important in that, and it’s remembering that God has other people also at work. And sometimes just the faith that I can do what I know I can, and I have to let God do the rest. 

And so often we are never the only person that is doing all things. But that compassion fatigue sets in so much quicker when we feel like we have to have the perfect answer and have to do the right things. And so just that reminder that there are other people, other helpers out there that can step in, I think is an important thing to know. 

You know, at one level, there’s just no surprise compassion fatigue. There’s something very unnatural about it. I don’t think that this was God’s garden intent, that his creation would have to process deep brokenness. It has come by way of the fall, right? But here we are. And so, I wonder, God’s heart must grieve, and this is what He wanted to protect us from, isn’t it? 

Yeah. And just to see that in Romans 8, the whole creation groans, waiting for restoration. And certainly, we, when we get into that brokenness and we experience what we weren’t originally supposed to experience, that’s going to tear us apart and for that to be a pointer back to God back to his goodness back to there will be a restored state at some point even though it’s so hard to see that. And even to believe that is tricky. This ability to have a lot of compassion and even feeling some of these effects of compassion fatigue I think it’s good to think about it that it’s actually not a weakness. 

It actually shows that we’re just a really empathetic, helpful, caring people. It’s just really a good sign and signal to us that something needs to change. I need to shift my view back to heaven and know that all things can work together for good here. And so, I think it’s more than a weakness. It’s just a good sign of things.  

You know, this has really been excellent. I think we’ve laid some really good foundational work. Let’s get really practical here for the person who says, you know, what’s some practical advice for me? What are some things you’d say? One of the really important things is just maybe taking some time to evaluate how are my relationships doing, who do I have that’s supportive that I can talk to and reach out to? Who’s keeping me accountable? Who’s checking in and saying, I’ve noticed that you’ve not been places you usually go, or I’ve noticed that you’ve kind of been distant? 

So, just make sure that you have a really good solid support group there for you. And that makes me think too, Kathy, that a lot of times different ones in our support group play different roles. And so, the person that maybe is able to hold us accountable might be different from the person that we get to go do something fun with. 

And just to recognize that both of those may be important in recognizing who fits into those different slots. And maybe you’ve got somebody that can do multiple things, but relationships are really a key here. I think another thing that comes to mind, Matt, and some of this is just, as we think about the Scripture and how God’s created us, it’s just like, oh, rest is such an important thing. 

And so, whether that’s like Sabbath rest, or if that’s making sure we’re getting enough sleep, or just checking out mentally. And sometimes the difference between what is a passive thing like we get on our phone and we’re resting or checking out. That’s not going to be nearly as restorative as purposefully closing your eyes and giving yourself 10 minutes to just have nothing going on, or even taking a nap, or doing a Sudoku puzzle that gives your mind a different kind of thing to exercise rather than more information to try to sort through. 

So, something that everybody really needs to evaluate for themselves is, are my attempts for rest really restful? Yes. Absolutely. Speak more about that because I think there’s something really key there. Well, one thought that comes to mind there, I think so often we do turn to our phones. We turn to whatever comes up on our phones. If it’s Facebook, if it’s other social media, if it’s messages from people or even the news that can come up. And the trouble with that is actually unhelpful or negative, hard things keep creeping in. So those sorts of things that are really going to help you step out of some of the difficulties, step out of relationship and information would be helpful. And for some, that might be a sudoku puzzle, for some that might be reading a novel, for others that might be cleaning the dishes who knows. But they’re just some things that are going to step out of the information and stressful things and into things that are going to exercise your brain in helpful ways or exercise your body in helpful ways. 

And this goes back to knowing yourself. Yeah, absolutely. I like what Brian said there. For some people, it is purposeful thinking about other things. And for others, it’s needing to find that outlet of something active or being able to do something that is more in line with some of the other gifts that God has given you so that it feels like you’re doing good, but maybe in a different capacity. 

And even with that, if you’re somebody who’s musical that you make sure you take time to sit down and play the piano or the guitar or listen to your favorite music. If you’re somebody who’s very artistic, to sit down and draw something or paint something, if you’re somebody who’s very active to make sure that you spend some time in the garden or whatever those things are that get you back in line with the reality that yes, there’s so much more brokenness in this world than we can wrap our minds around, but there are also good things. There are also things we can enjoy and appreciate, and we may not experience the emotion that we’d like to with them, but to just have that faith again, that it’s doing something good for us, even if we don’t feel it in the moment. 

You know, it makes me think we mentioned the fall and God’s creation, and certainly we live with that brokenness, but the shape and the shading and the hues of God’s divine and beautiful creation is still here. And what I heard you say there, Brian, is walk in that world, right? Walk in that garden. We’ve got to walk in the broken one, but the divine one is here in many ways yet to enjoy that. 

Absolutely. And one of the visuals that’s helpful for me is it takes me back to the where’s Waldo books that I did as a kid that sometimes in the midst of so much brokenness, you have to really fight and look and search for those good things. And it’s kind of like finding Waldo sometimes. And, that’s a helpful picture for me that I need as I’m on my drive home or as I’m doing things in the evening to look for Waldo, to look for those small things. And sometimes it’s just seeing a smile on a neighbor’s face. And I think that would be a really important key here is just that we’re looking for little things.  

I’ve really benefited from this conversation. I really hope and pray our listeners have, and I want to, as we close, Brian and Kathy, I’d like you to speak to the three different spheres of the audience that I laid out at the beginning. I want you to speak right now to that healthcare industry who is, again, as we’ve said it, in the trenches in very profound ways. 

What final parting thoughts do you have for them? Thank you. Thank you for what you’ve done. It really has mattered that you are blessing and caring for those and even though there’s still so much tragedy, there’s great value in what you’re doing. You are providing those Waldo moments for other people, and they may not see it always, they may not acknowledge it always, but thank you for the work that you’re doing that is unspeakably difficult right now and yet amazing so thank you. 

Absolutely. Those of us that are not on the front lines like all of you are, we cannot even begin to imagine what it feels like walking into the hospital every day or just even the sounds that are there and just all of the memories from the past year. It is difficult and we appreciate that you continue to go to work each day for all of us. 

And I just want to accent that you’re right. They have been an article of grace personified in our world today, no doubt, combating against the brokenness which is so like Jesus. And so, thank you. Let’s go to that next ring. I mentioned teachers and other professionals who are interacting with the public in very large ways and having to flex in many thankless ways. I just think so often with teachers, especially through 2020, and then some of the uncertainty, even now, this is not what you signed up for. When you taught, you signed up to be there, be present with your students, be right next to them, monitoring their growth, seeing what they’re doing. 

And this is not how you ever imagined the classroom playing out. And so, like a lot of people, you all have had to be very flexible. And I just know from what I have heard, the most difficult thing has been just this piece of not being able to really touch the students the way that you want to touch, not just academically, but also socially. And so just hanging in there with really difficult circumstances, we appreciate that. Certainly, I would echo what Kathy says there and just that you’re in circumstances and serving in ways that you didn’t anticipate. And that’s always difficult. Thank you for the flexibility. 

I think it’s a great message and what you’re teaching the public in that way is we rise to the challenge, and we make adjustments because we’re going to get through this thing. And what a powerful lesson to young people and to the community at large. Let’s go now to that outer one. We’re all in the community, right? 

We’re in neighborhoods. We’re all thrown in this together. We have a very similar experience at the workplace, going to church. What parting comments for this audience? Well, a couple things would just come to mind. I think, naturally, some of the things that have happened at a societal level over decades is that we’ve gotten very used to only be around and only interacting with those that are just like us. 

And I think all of this has thrown us into the reality that we have to interact with each other and we’re seeing the differences that are there. We’ve all sorted each other out differently. There are different lines. And again, in that, it is very exhausting and all of us are trying to think through what I am supposed to do and how do I do this well and just to be able to trust in each other, trusting that everybody’s trying to do what they think is right and just to have that patience with each other and for each other in the midst of it. 

None of us know exactly what we’re supposed to do. And again, that can be very wearing and can move us to this place of not caring and recognizing when we’re moving into that spot, trying to resist that and refocusing on what it looks like to love each other in the midst of it. Yeah. And I would say just as we’re interacting with people from the community, just remember that everybody has their own stories that are going on in their own head, their own level of compassion fatigue, their own level of uncertainty and fear. And so being able to remember that first and evaluate what the person is saying and that sort of thing. The other thing is just that reminder to look for the good. Remember to see Jesus in all people and being able to set aside the differences and be able to reconnect even with some of the things that used to make you all friends and care about each other and that sort of thing. 

You know, we spent a great deal of this podcast talking about understanding oneself and understanding our emotional world and how these inputs are affecting us emotionally. Kathy, you’ve really posited this idea. Recognize that other people are dealing with that. And sometimes we’re interacting with an emotional other person’s self. You know what I mean? This is really tricky business. But I think understanding promotes the grace, Brian, that you really challenge us to care and to have compassion and to give the benefit of the doubt. What you may have expected a few years ago, as far as how somebody might respond to you or how they might even look at you across from church or across the street may not be the same. 

And it may not have anything to do with their thoughts towards you. It’s probably got a lot to do with what they’re wrestling with in their own heart. You know, I think COVID has taught us a lot of things. One thing it’s taught me, and I guess I can only speak for myself, I changed my mind a lot. 

Now that I understand that about myself, I would imagine other people are experiencing something similar. I don’t know. It says something about the human experience, doesn’t it? As more information comes in, as experiences pile up, as we talk with other people, yeah, our minds shift, and it can be very confusing at times. And like you said, we find ourselves in different spots at different times. And to be able to recognize that and be compassionate towards the reality that they’re going to be in that same place.  

Thanks both of you so much. Thanks for bringing this topic to bear, filling in the lines, coloring it in, shading it, and speaking from your own personal experiences, ones who have to continually think about compassion fatigue. It’s real. And we all believe you now because we’re all experiencing it. To our listeners, I just trust and pray that this could be a blessing to you, perhaps be the start of some promptings of personal reflection, so that we all take the personal health we require and live that out so that we can continue to care, to love, to be empathetic. 

Thanks.