Introversion & the Church Podcast

So, I’m an introvert plus I’m shy, which is like two strikes against me sometimes. No, not strikes against you, two facets of your personality. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent to have you along. I’m glad to have in the studio today, a couple of special guests. 

I’ve got Ron Messner and Kristen Schwind, and welcome both of you. Great to have you here. Thanks. Ron needs very little introduction. Kristen? You’re a new voice. Yeah, I have been at ACCFS for about a year and a half. It’ll be two years in October, and I work at the front desk. I am Ted’s personal assistant so whatever he needs done, I try to do and anything else the counselors or anybody else needs I try to do that as well. 

Thank you both for being here. Our topic today is introversion as it intersects the church. This matter of personality has a lot to do with how we interact with the church and view the church. I think we could probably say introversion and extroversion is all on a spectrum. None of us perhaps are classically one way or the other, and we all have tendencies. 

But I think between the three of us, we can provide some sort of voice to this experience. To what end? Well, to the end that we might all live wisely with one another. Does that foundation make sense to you? Yes, I do think it’s a good thing to speak into. Anytime you choose to define people using a dichotomy, you immediately run into trouble. 

And we’ll probably speak to that during this podcast, that somebody is not just an introvert or just an extravert. It’s important to know what that means. If there was some way to describe people by their actual personality. not just by a term, it’d probably be more useful. But I think it will be good to talk about how we interact at church and what value we have. 

Even what churches will be good to talk about. I’d like to see two different goals. I think one goal from this conversation would be to help extraverts understand what an introvert might be experiencing in the church experience and fellowship. And also, I would like a two-pronged goal also for introverts to see this is how I should be living and how I could live in the church reality in a healthy way as well.  

So maybe two-pronged there, but Kris, I’d be glad to hear just how this setup strikes you. Is there anything that says, yeah, I can relate to that or any sanction that you can provide there. Like, we had baptisms at our church this past Sunday, and there were so many people there, and I just was up against the wall, just people watching, just trying not to get too involved because it would stress me out. 

But I do think that if church wasn’t extraverted, then there would be no interaction with people whatsoever. So, you have to have a balance of both introverts and extraverts. So, we do have a tension, and I appreciate you acknowledging that. There’s a tension here because church is classically communal. I mean, what is church if it’s not together? That’s going to pose perhaps a difficult reality for some. 

I want to push back a little bit, Matt. I was thinking about it this morning. We’re describing church as what happens on Sunday between 9:30 and 2:00. And actually, that’s just one piece of church. That’s the worship part of church. And I think we would all agree, and I think it gives some context for introverts, if we describe church as the body and all the functions of the body. And I would say this about Washington church, but I’m sure it’s true in each of yours, I’m constantly reminded and surprised at things that are happening on a much smaller scale and that the introverts fit in very nicely. But we have a tendency to describe or to think of church as communal church worship. But the church function is made up of many smaller interactions. And I think it’s helpful for those of us who tend to be more introverted and think of it in the bigger context of all that occurs. Our favorite place might not be the Sunday worship service or the Wednesday worship service. It might be in those other places.  

I love that pushback and I think that’s a very important nuance to speak to. But yes, we’re talking about churches as an expansive reality that far extends the time together. And I appreciate you putting voice to that, Ron, and maybe our favorite time is not that time. 

I’m not sure we ever hear that voiced, Ron, what you just voiced there. I think a great deal of people would feel bad if they had those thoughts. And we all do. You see what I’m saying? It’s because that’s what we see. That’s not a criticism of any of us thinking that way, because we all react from our senses and visually and in other ways. 

What we see is church in that communal sense, but from a church leadership place and thinking of what the needs are and where they are met, that’s really just a subset of church. That subset is communal. Kristen, does that resonate with you how Ron described maybe my favorite time of the week is not this time? 

I think so. There are many different roles in the church and many different communities within the church and groups and things that help the church run as a community. I really appreciate that we tend to associate leadership with extroversion. People assume because you manage crowds that you’re extraverted. A lot of elders go home exhausted. And that’s a definition of introversion. Let’s spell that out because we haven’t even yet, Ron, why don’t you say a little bit about how we would address introversion, extroversion? 

I think there are different ways to define it, but I think a really simple way is not how much you like going to an event or not, or how much you like people or not, but the impact that it has on you. Those of us who tend to be more introverted, some of us really like events or groups, but we go home tired. 

The extraverts that I know are like, well, could we have a lunch call too or is there something else? They’re not tired yet because they’ve been pumped up with the interaction as opposed to wearied. And they thrive off the interaction and are recharged by the interaction. An extravert is equal to an introvert who is recharged by maybe some solitude. 

I actually think that’s a better definition than sometimes we think of introvert as socially avoidant. And that might be true, but that’s not always true. That’s a different definition. I think this definition of those who get charged up and thrive in crowds and those who enjoy that have a lot to offer, but we’re used and we don’t have more to give.  

Kristen, do you ever feel like perhaps because of your personality that you might be judged differently? Based on the choices you make on what you attend and don’t attend. Definitely. Sometimes I feel like I come off as aloof because I tend to be apart from a group or I’m not quite sure how to insert myself into a group because I will tend to run the conversation through my mind to see if it’s even worth putting the energy into it. And I’m like, no, it’s all right, I’ll just hang back.  

I couldn’t help but chuckle a little bit when you said, people might find you aloof. I have this distinct memory of when I was 14 or 15 on the bus and this girl who was my friend said, you can be so conceited. And I thought, conceited? I’m more working on self-esteem on the other side of that. It wasn’t until later, maybe years later, I realized I wasn’t interacting, and people interpret that as not caring or that we think we were better than or that they’re not worth engaging with. And we’re sitting there trying to figure out what I would say if I did or would they even want me to as opposed to avoiding because we think we’re better or different. 

So, I think introverts can be very easily misunderstood or misinterpreted. Yeah. So, I appreciate you. Yeah, that resonates for sure. Some have claimed that the church tends to emphasize extraversion, reward extraversion, what would you say to that? True? False?  

In what way is it true? I think it goes back to where we started. I think that’s true when we’re talking about communal events, some people define extraversion or particularly the ability to step in and visit. The desire to visit is almost a moral quality or a Christian quality that shows that somebody cares or that they want to engage with others when in fact what they’re observing is somebody’s personality. 

That desire to step into, and I think it’s true. Those of us who are more introverted can be a bit of a weight on a conversation or socializing because we’re not always participating or we don’t participate as easily, but it’s not a moral quality. It’s not a Christian quality. It’s a part of our personality and where we have the energy or enter into comfortably in terms of interactions. We’re still good people, in other words. 

No, that’s good. I’m just curious, Kristen, you mentioned about being seen as a loop, whether you’ve actually faced a situation where you sensed that people were questioning you or disapproving or unsure of your motives because of your introversion. I don’t know if I’ve ever been in a certain situation like that, but I tend to judge myself more that way as well as just being more unsure of myself. 

So, I’m an introvert plus I’m shy, which is like two strikes against me sometimes. No, not strikes against you, two facets of your personality. Yeah, well, I want to comment. I think it’s fair, Kristen. It does sometimes make it difficult. The more introverted we are, it isn’t just what others think. It means more work or questioning our own, whether we’re not motivated to be engaged with people or don’t care about them as much. Yeah. I’m really fascinated at the construct of church and how we lay it out. I’m going to talk about that, you know, those hours that you have raised that point very well. But we would say those hours on Sunday and Wednesday nights and other events are important. 

They do have fellowship very central in them. And I’m just curious, and now I’m just pontificating, I’m curious what the church would have looked like over the ages and what those times together would look like. Have we gravitated towards a more dynamic interaction required in emphasis then. I’m thinking of a person slipping into a cathedral and worshiping God, meeting God there in and among the family of God. Those hours were important hours in their weekly real estate, but it had less to do with being chatty and more to do with worship. Does that make sense? Yeah. I don’t know if this is accurate or not. Sometimes I notice how churches are built, specifically Apostolic Christian churches, and if you go back 70 to 80 years, they didn’t have a fellowship area. 

They had a coat area and enough room for a fourth or less of the church to stand. And then as times changed, churches really emphasize a large fellowship area. And it makes me wonder if we’ve changed and use the Sunday worship time in particular, maybe Wednesday night also, more for fellowship than we used to, if it used to be more a time of worship. 

So, the assembly was larger. The fellowship area is smaller. I don’t know if this is true, but I can’t imagine, well, they couldn’t have fellowshipped as much. There was not a place to do it. And I’m sure they didn’t approve of that happening in the assembly. So, people had to come, hang up their coat, and gone in and sat down. 

Did fellowship happen at a different place other than during church? Is that a part of the kind of charismatic nature that church has developed into? And the last thing I would want to do is really posit this idea that we need to do less fellowship. Right? Because I think we all agree right here that fellowship is critical and that is a huge function of the church. 

We have a desire for brotherhood, for engaging in church. We see the body having value for us and being able to give to it. It’s not that, it’s that it takes more effort and discipline to engage, but it’s not a discounting of the value of that. So, it is who we are. It is a personality issue. Yeah, but I’m interested, Kristen, about what your worship looks like, your Sunday worship, because some do go to church excited to meet, greet, fellowship and those types of things as well as worship. 

I don’t mean to say that, but I would have to imagine that we have something to learn from how the introvert slips into church, what their experience is, what they’re excited about. I enjoy the singing. We have more singing that we do, so I enjoy that aspect of it is being in there and singing and then listening and I want to capture the beauty of singing. What a beautiful communal event. It’s much better than singing by yourself at home, right? When we sing with people, I think there’s something really powerful in participation in that. Yeah. I would definitely agree. I think a key piece, at least for myself, I don’t know if this is true. I think it is true of most introverts. We want to know what’s expected of us. So, while singing, it’s find your part, blend in. So, we know what we’re doing during the worship service, regardless of how attentive we are, we know that it’s, open the Bible, follow along, listen, try to understand. When we talk about church seeming to be more extraverted, we’re talking about the fellowship time, a distinct subset of what church is, not only of the body, but even of the Sunday or Wednesday worship time. Introverts are not afraid of assignments. We’re not afraid to sit on committees. We’re not afraid to leave the committees. 

We’re not afraid, afraid is maybe not the right word, but intimidated by meeting one on one, serving as a mentor, being involved in discipleship. It’s the fellowship time, which many of us still enjoy. I want to be really clear on that. We vary a lot in how much, but it does tire us because it’s a lot of work figuring it out. 

It doesn’t come naturally to us. So, definition, if you think about how to support or how to value introverts in your church, think of those defined roles. Use them, whether it’s mentoring or something like that. Those of us who are introverted, at least for a certain part of the church, have as much and maybe more to offer, because we can let the other person talk, pay attention, but we don’t need to engage in it as much. There’s not just a place, I think there’s a value that we need to look for and recognize.  

I would like you to speak about weaknesses. Introversion at its worst could be this. And then we also want the flip side of the coin. How is God beautifully using the gifts of the introvert in the church? I think one of the things to look for is when an introvert is in church and hangs back every Sunday or every Wednesday night and is not interacting at all, they may feel like they don’t fit in the church. 

And that is not true, they have a role to play. What does that approach look like? I’m sure it’s varied. It’s got lots of nuances, depending on the person, but help us with a mindset to draw that person in or meet that person’s needs. Sure. Like depending on how it is definitely dependent on the person, the age difference, if you’re around the same age, it’s a little bit easier to go up to them and just kind of, you know, like, hey, how’s it going? 

And kind of get a little conversation started with them. It may not last very long. But they will feel like they have been noticed. And that will mean the world to them, that someone at church has noticed them instead of them just being at the back and not sure what to do with themselves. Here’s what I really love about that, because I do think there’s a lot of shades of uniqueness to people. 

What’s the right thing to say? Probably depends on the person, but that concept of notice is probably universal. That’s probably the message that’s going to be helpful at that moment, and that could be done through a lot of different ways and methods, but notice I think, is a handle that we can take. 

I think drawing somebody in means asking their opinion, what they’re doing, how life’s going, what they’re interested in. That’s a good skill with anyone, not just with an introvert, but it’s helpful to somebody who can tend a little more towards social isolation. If you define the conversation and things that they know what to say about. 

That’s helpful. Yeah. That’s very helpful. I think sometimes though, it can be a little off putting if the person coming up to them asks them super deep questions and they don’t know them very well, they’re not going to get a very good answer. Introverts, like me, would say, I am not comfortable. I may not know them. I’m not comfortable telling them those things. I am going to avoid the answer and talk about something else because I don’t want to go there.  

So, I think that’s something else to be aware of. So, here’s the question. And again, lots of shades I’m sure to this. But as a rule of thumb, do introverts prefer deep conversations to shallow conversations? 

So that’s toggle, the first toggle, and then. I don’t think extravert or introvert lines up with deep or shallow, but I appreciate Kristen’s point of don’t ask us to be deep if it’s not a comfortable relationship. And I don’t think it has as much to do with equity as making it with personalities that click. 

I think I would focus more on a sense of trust, so if it feels safe, because I know it’s not going to go someplace else, or you’re going to respect it. Or I know you’re genuinely interested, then it’s not difficult to get a little bit deeper, but you have to make it safe. Let me know if you care. So, I don’t think so. 

There’s a realness to it. I think if you want to say an introvert wants real conversation. Oh, I would definitely say that’s true. Yeah, I think that’s helpful. You asked a question, Matt, and I want to tuck it in there. This is coming from the counseling side and perhaps some of what Ted sees. So, when you ask what’s the downside of introversion, depending on how strongly introverted somebody is, people can become socially isolated and do, and we see that happen. 

There are people who are loners and not always by choice. They need more interaction but can’t find a safe place to do it. So as introverts, we need to work against that. Introverts need to be careful to discipline themselves to engage. It can be, depending on where we are in life and how strong that is, too easy to stay home or avoid the group or feel isolated from the church body and that the church body does have something to offer. 

It is an important part. So, we have work to do also. Let’s go to that beautiful space of God and his wisdom has knit us all wonderfully. And it’s not a mistake necessarily that we have tendencies towards introversion and tendencies towards extraversion. Where do you see God using introversion really beautifully in the church? 

And we’re going to expand that not only in those hours that we talked about, but beyond. I would say in the one-on-one experiences, mentor, mentee, or even just a small group of friends or Bible study. I have a group that I’m doing a Bible study with, and I really enjoy that cause I’m able to have those deeper conversations with them and be in that safe place and then with the mentor mentee relationship. 

You can get to know somebody really well and have that trust there and have those deep conversations with them as well and just be comfortable with that. And that’s such a critical part of church, right? That people, and you can see God’s mind even in this, in the gifting, right? You are not going to be the welcomer at the door, but we need welcomers at the door who just see a visitor, a person who is new, and is able to strike up a conversation with no equity at all. The extravert can do that and bring that person in. But then for that person to be able to find a deep well of relationships that will go the distance extraverts do that as well. 

But introverts do that very well. As I think about who I’ve referred people to, if there’s somebody who needs some support or accountability or just some walking side by side, I probably tend to refer them more not to extreme introverts, but to people who are a bit more introverted because I know they will listen well and contemplate with them and that the person won’t be intimidated by them. 

It’ll feel safe. So certainly that, but I think also just other kinds of one-on-one tasks, things that just need to be done about the church. Introverts like definition, so if you give them a committee or a task, and I don’t mean just like cleaning the bathrooms or vacuuming the carpet or whatever. 

An example might be reviewing Sunday school curriculum. You know, it’s something they can sit down and do and think that through and how it hits others. So, a wide range of tasks. They won’t get frustrated with the lack of interaction that’s going on. The task will be fulfilling of itself and not needing other social clarity is what I’m hearing for the social context. Whether it’s a committee whether it’s a team you’re working on, there’s a clarity brought to that social setting, and it sounds to me when there’s not clarity, it’s a free for all. Those social settings can induce anxiety. So, Kristen mentioned about being in a Bible study. It makes me curious I suspect that introverts would do well in a Bible study. That’s really focused on understanding and study because we know what the topic is, what we’re going to be talking about can bring some thoughts with that. 

But there’s a book or some format, specific questions. I think most of them would be glad to share their perspective on what that is, but it’s in a defined context. There’s social clarity as well as a method by which to get deep, to be meaningful, and usually in that context you have some order in how people talk and listen. 

And those roles are made very clear. I really have been blessed by that. I think that’s really helpful. Now I hear you say, listening is a real likelihood to be a strength there. Not only listening to people, but listening, I would have to believe to God. And I wonder if the introvert has some to share and offer the church in this ability to be silent, to not have to run around, to not be afraid of being home on a Friday night. Right. Or being able to have that space.  

And I think it can be easily judged as non-spiritual, not being here when the doors are open. Right. But yet recharging in those times, I don’t know. Is there anything to say to that? Well, I’m interested in Kristen’s take on that. 

I would be careful about implying that introverts, because of their willingness to be alone, have a deeper connection with God. So that’s not necessarily true. I would say that varies from person to person. I agree. Those Friday nights that I spend by myself, I am most likely not just humming and reading the Bible. I am doing other things that just help me relax because I tend to get in my head a lot.  

And I appreciate that humility, Kristen, and the authenticity that you’re having here. But let’s be clear, I think God finds a great deal of pleasure in us, even outside of reading the Bible and humming and singing. I think he finds a great deal of pleasure in us finding pleasure in good, wholesome things that recharge us, which is very likely happening in many ways. Do you know, I wonder, Matt, if maybe the difference or the issue is for the extraverted person, they need to discipline themselves to be alone so they can connect with God, the introverted person has that time and needs to discipline themselves so that they use it for that purpose. 

I don’t think one is necessarily more connected or it comes more easily, but the discipline that’s needed is a different discipline. I really appreciate thanks both of you for just providing voice and bringing up and having a conversation about this because I think it’s important. So, I think, Matt, one of the values of using this as a discussion is not just about introversion or extraversion, it is about difference. And in the broad sense, recognize that people who are not like us don’t contribute less and don’t have less to offer in the church. And the Bible speaks clearly about gifts and some of those gifts are about personality. They’re not just about skill sets. We all have a tendency to feel people should be a little bit more like us because we understand that and to not be as understanding of people of a different nature. 

So, I think this topic lends itself to reminding us no matter what the difference is, whatever that continuum is, that there’s value in personalities which are different than ours. And I think that’s an excellent way to close. So, thank you. Thanks, Ron. I know, Kristen, you’ve been just counting down the days to have your voice. 

So that wasn’t nearly as painful as you thought, right? No. Oh, I’m so glad. Your voice was so important on this podcast. And for our listeners, hopefully this stirred up some thoughts, stirred up some perspectives. Certainly, we didn’t overturn every stone and a lot of things have been left unsaid, but it expands our minds again to everybody that we worship with and God has called into our families. 

And now we can live with one another in a more winsome, wise, healthy way as we fellowship with one another according to the gifts and according to our personalities, to the glory of God. Thanks, each one. Thank you.