When Neurodiversity Is Present In Marriage Podcast

You don’t need to try any harder. We need to shift in the way we’re trying and what we’re focusing on, on the path to healing and reconciliation and whatever that looks like for a specific couple.  

Greetings and welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Counseling and Family Services. Great to have you along. I’ve got Kaleb Beyer here in the studio with me and glad to have a conversation. It’s good to be with you, Matt. Looking forward to our conversation. Kaleb, we talk marriage in this podcast with you primarily and I’m really looking forward to this conversation. Neurodiversity is the big 25 word, and I want you to break that down and help us understand what neurodiversity is, how it impacts marriage, and then we’re going to go into a specific issue regarding. 

Matt, 1 Peter 3 calls spouses to live with one another in an understanding way, and the topic that we’re walking through today, I think, provides instruction to this end, how to do that when there are differences, neurological differences within marriage. We’re all created in God’s image, and we see in creation both a simplicity and a complexity to His creation. 

We all have different giftings and talents. This is reflective of the beauty of God’s creation. We then should expect differences in how we process the world that we live in, and certainly we see that even in the relationship of a marriage. So, the term neurodiversity really has come out and is used in the mental health field predominantly now, and it really encompasses a group of individuals that live in the world differently, Matt. 

So, meaning that there are neurological differences that influence the way they think, the way they respond, the way they perhaps engage with their emotions. And so, this can be a group of individuals such as someone who has autism, someone with ADHD, someone with dyslexia, all of those. Functionally in their brain, we would expect different things and they view the world and interact with the world in different ways. 

Well, I’m familiar with the educational setting, Kaleb, and you’re absolutely right. These are all really important matters as an educator we take very, very close care of. Oh, how do I teach a person with ADHD? What does the classroom environment, how does that impact a person who might be on the spectrum or have dyslexia. Yeah, their environment has a lot to do with their world. So now in marriage. Oh, yeah, absolutely. Right. Yeah.  

So, you’re absolutely familiar in your own experience and it can impact then obviously communication and how learning takes place and being present and responsive and all of these engaged relationally. And so, someone who is neurodiverse has neurological differences from what we’d call neurotypical. So, individuals that through the process of development we would say have a typical brain structure. And so, part of this a term flows, Matt, out of the reality that actually those that are neurodiverse have some giftedness, they have giftings within those differences that actually are to be valued. 

And it’s not just, as we’ve seen in the past, a disability per se. So, with that, what we find, again, is within couples in marriage relationships, it can be really difficult where we have either a couple where one spouse is neurodivergent, so they have ADHD, they’re on the spectrum, and the other one is neurotypical. 

And so there, again, are differences in the way that their brain is structured and how they process the world. And we’re not just talking about personality differences. So when that setup happens, it can be painful, difficult, at times really exciting what those differences can bring out. But I think it’s important to understand that a neurodiverse couple is different than a neurotypical couple that have both the same brain structures trying to work through conflict.  

Sure. That looks very different. I would have to believe, Kaleb, that this can come as both a surprise and perhaps a relief for some couples to come to the awareness that, oh, we have neuro diversity going on in our marriage dynamics. 

And that’s not always known when we say I do, is that true? True. Very true. And to the individual who has ADHD, for example, they may be unaware. It may not have been diagnosed. They may have inklings. But again, some of this is both unaware to the spouse who marries someone who’s neurodivergent but also to the individuals themselves. 

And so, I think even as we have this discussion, sometimes we can make the assumption that just because we talk about these symptoms, people are aware that they have it. And that’s simply not true. And have you had cases where you suspect that these things are going on, and the couple does not, and you help bring that understanding? 

Yes, which is a beautiful thing, I think, to make sense of a distressing dynamic that’s present in the relationship that we’ll talk more about. But it’s both validating, I think, for both of them but on the flip side, it’s also, anytime we put a label on something, there can also be a mixture of emotions that come with that. But by and large, it has been, in my experience, a helpful framework when couples are able to accept it and understand. Oh, this is why he or she does this, and this makes sense, and that I don’t need to personalize those things. It’s still hard and hurtful at times, but it changes the way that we perceive the motives. 

It provides some really helpful meaning. And meaning goes a long way, doesn’t it? It does. Yeah. Yes. So, I know that you wanted to address a very narrow issue of ADHD, which time doesn’t allow. And perhaps other podcasts will give us the opportunity to go into some of those other ones. ADHD though might be enough for today’s topic. Let’s go into that one narrowly.  

Yep. So, when someone is diagnosed with ADHD, they can be diagnosed with predominantly inattention, attention deficit disorder, or they can be diagnosed with predominantly hyperactivity or a combination of both. 

There’s a number of symptoms that are often present. So, the first is, think in the area of energy and speed. Just imagine you’re on a race 90 miles an hour with faulty windshield wipers and it’s in the rain. And so, there is a sense of thrill at the midst of the speed at which you’re going, and so for someone with ADHD, there is a sense of thrill in the fact of the way things are both coming at them right in the way that they’re processing, which leads to them on one hand easily getting bored, but on a flip side, at times, easily becoming overwhelmed with all of that energy. 

Okay. So, there’s this very narrow, beautiful spot, of being stimulated, but not overwhelmed. Yes. Exactly. Which looks different for someone with ADHD than it does for someone that’s neurotypical. Kaleb, I know we run some risks here because we’re not diagnosing things over the air here, but we do want to provide some caricature that’s like, okay, what does this look like? Right. And how can we see it perhaps playing out in real life? So, we’ve got a husband and wife, suppose he has ADHD. What does that look like in a typical evening.  

Let’s say, so in this case, the husband has ADHD, two times more likely that adult men, have ADHD than women, but women also have it. So, let’s say the husband gets home and she has expressed and wants to have a conversation that night about the finances, the budget, that’s been an ongoing stressor, and she really would like to work through it because he’s made some decisions that haven’t been according to what they agreed upon. 

Several things come into play here. One is related to time. When it comes to time, they have two time zones. That is now and not now, which means they are focused in the present, which means they easily forget 10 minutes ago, and they lose track of I need to be ready to leave for church in 10 minutes, for example. 

And so, it’s a now and a not now kind of continuum and remembering things out here just doesn’t happen. And so, it’s in this space, we often think of someone with ADHD not being able to pay attention. That’s not completely accurate. In fact, they hyper focus sometimes on things that give them the reward. 

They don’t pay attention when things don’t reward them because the brain structure of someone with ADHD is different from someone who doesn’t have ADHD and is neurotypical. They have less of what’s called dopamine receptors. Well, for someone with ADHD, it takes more for them to feel the same amount of rush. 

Reward. Exactly. And so, coming back to the example of the husband coming home with the budget, that doesn’t sound very rewarding. But it takes more stimulus for them to stay in the present budget conversation when the budget has a ton to do with the past and the future. Yes, exactly. And another thing that comes into play here too is for someone with ADHD, Melissa Orloff uses this term called flat brain. 

So, when it comes to brain, you and I, who are neurotypical, we are able to put hierarchy on information coming in. Meaning you would be able to say something related to your wife, I can put up here as importance compared to taking out the trash. ADHD? It’s flat. Issues that are not a high priority in the present become presently prioritized. Exactly. And so, with that, you think about that, Matt, which is extremely overwhelming. So, when he’s sitting down here, the husband with ADHD, to have this conversation, an important conversation, that his wife’s distressed over, that he’s made some really poor decisions related to finances. Tt’s not a great setup for having a conversation that leads to understanding, that leads to the wife feeling validated, the husband feeling validated but all of this in the context of probably this is not the first conversation they’ve had. So, they’re probably coming into that conversation with some meaning already back here. 

You know what? I don’t matter to him. Yeah. He forgets things. So, the meaning she’s made up about this difficult interaction is he doesn’t care about the budget or he’s not a good steward, not a good provider, not a good planner. He doesn’t care about my needs. A lot of meaning. Yes. False meaning is made in this moment. 

Right. Correct. And, and understandably so. Sure. Absolutely. For myself, if my spouse continually forgets things, I begin to wonder, is what I value important to them? I mean, it’s a natural outworking, but I think what we’re saying here is the symptom of ADHD is such that one with ADHD is unable to differentiate hierarchy and has difficulty maintaining focus when something’s not rewarded. If that makes sense. And so it isn’t that he isn’t trying hard to do that or that his wife doesn’t matter. And I think that’s the painful dynamic that can play out in the marriage relationship. So, as you work with couples, step one is bringing awareness to this reality. I’m curious, where do you go from there?  

Yeah, I think, so again, it depends on where couples are at. If this is a new thing for them, if they’re unaware, if the husband, let’s say, has ADHD and hasn’t been diagnosed by a professional, we start there in getting that individual assessed and really educating both spouses on ADHD, the symptoms, how they manifest, and the tendency of couples to misinterpret symptoms for motives. 

So, forgetfulness to I don’t matter to you or distraction to you don’t care about me, which is easy and natural to happen, but rather begin seeing that as a symptom of ADHD and not an ill motive of the individual that has. ADHD. Sure. What’s critical here is the treatment of ADHD. Appropriate treatment. So just like you think of diabetes when someone is diagnosed with diabetes or a hormone imbalance. 

It sets a course of action and their structural differences. So, what we’re talking about is we didn’t talk about impulse control, which is also relevant to making financial decisions. Part of someone with ADHD, a symptom is impulse control. So, the part of their brain, prefrontal cortex, which acts as a break when we think, maybe I shouldn’t say this right now in this heated conversation with my wife over finances. 

So, the ability to kind of put the brakes on isn’t present. So, because of that, treatment in the form of one, we would say physical. So that includes exercise, eating, but also medications that can help the break work properly. Regulate emotions properly is important. Skill development. Finding ways that I can say, okay, how do I accept that there are neurological differences that I need to accept and address appropriately. 

But what you’re saying is there are ways to address these things. Yes, absolutely. Again, we look at the physical, which is the medication, the body. So, changing that, yeah. We look at the behavioral development, which is skill development, enhance being present and organized and all these things. 

And then the third thing is relationally learning external cues that can help me understand how I’m showing up in this relationship. And beginning to do that in a different way. And I think also with this, Matt, it’s helpful for couples to recognize the pattern that shows up. Numbers of patterns can show up, right? 

So, someone who’s not diagnosed with ADHD during the engagement phase, there’s generally a lot of excitement, enthusiasm, attention, because someone with ADHD is getting rewarded a great deal by doing things for their fiancé, right? Not that they don’t care about them, but a lot of it has to do with this feeling really good to my brain, right? 

Infatuation is also generally present. And then you move along relationally after marriage, and then suddenly something shifts. Something’s no longer rewarded, right, for the attention they bring. And then suddenly, the attention that was there for the non-ADHD spouse is no longer there.  Which is incredibly painful and feels alone to the individual that has ADHD, right? Things haven’t changed. Remember, they have a flat brain in the sense that there’s not hierarchy. And so, their ability to pick up those different things. But then the second thing is too, and the one that doesn’t have ADHD, a whole lot has changed. 

Yes. And now you’re not the center of attention and it’s not thrilling and exciting. And this individual’s on to something different and new and that’s thrilling. So, do we see crises at marital phases? You mentioned engagement to marriage. Yes, for sure. There’s not like a specific area. It depends on where couples are and just different circumstances. But, definitely, Matt, there is a dynamic that plays out where there’s thrill and excitement and engagement. Then you move into the relationship and life starts to happen and you get into maybe it’s kids, maybe it’s just work, you know, as the years go by that loses the excitement and thrill and reward for the ADHD spouse. Again, things show up like forgetfulness or distraction or restlessness or inability to control emotions, right and they feel emotions. By the way, there is some research that has shown the intensity of emotions they feel is heightened, right?  

And by the way, they have a context of growing up being reminded that you just need to try harder when you forget something in school. Like you just need to apply yourself. So, they’ve internalized the message coming into this relationship. So, there’s been some social formation that this individual is carrying good, bad, or other. Generally, that’s true. And so, that sets up, in the marital relationship, as things become less exciting, understandably so for the non-ADHD spouse, to be okay, I’m reminding him. He’s forgetting things that I asked him to do. He’s making really poor decisions that compromise the finances for the family, for the kids, right? 

You can see how then that leads to nagging and badgering. And by the way, this is someone that’s seen outside of the marriage relationship as fun and exciting. And so it’s easy to paint this picture that the one with non-ADHD is just cranky and she just needs to get, you know, and the one with ADHD, outside of the marriage, is fun and exciting to be with. 

So, as that plays out, there can be a dynamic of nagging and oftentimes, for the one with ADHD, it’s not so much that they don’t want to, often they desire for it to be different, the more they try and fail. What do you do? I mean, at some point you just give in and give up or get angry and defensive. 

And so, as that pattern plays out in the marriage relationship, the less the ADHD spouse remembers and is present and shows value, that I value you and I will follow through on that. The less the non-ADHD spouse is able to trust them and really feel like they care, and they matter. So, the more she nags and says, okay, you know what? You said you were going to clean the kitchen. I’m going to stand right here and watch you clean the kitchen. Well, it sets up a parent child dynamic. One that they’re very familiar with and the more places this plays out, the more hopeless it feels. 

Okay. So, this is really helpful, Kaleb. Let’s go now to the neurotypical spouse. What do you help them with? Yeah, so one is I think for them education about ADHD is going to be helpful as well for them to understand the differences that are present related to their brain and the neurological differences. 

The second thing is for them, there is some grieving that needs to happen, right? Their anger makes sense. They came into this relationship not knowing, that’s the assumption, not knowing this individual had ADHD. And had different expectations and actually good and healthy expectations for a healthy relationship that we can sit down and have a conversation and you’re not going to be distracted or that you’ll remember date night or that all these things, right? Or that you won’t react impulsively or with anger in the moment, for example. And so there is some grieving that will happen with that for the non-ADHD. 

With the intent to come to a place of acceptance that this is my right. And this is the dynamics. And it’s not all together bad. Right. Yes. And with that, that their feelings are real, but the underlying causes of those feelings are treatable. Is part of that the neurodiverse spouse acknowledging that pain and saying, this must be hard for you? 

Yes. And I think part of what we often run into in working with couples is rebuilding trust. So, when you think about trust, Matt, you think about someone following through on what they said they’d follow through on. Now we’re talking here about ADHD, which is a symptom, by the way, of untreated ADHD is the lack of consistent follow through. 

And so even in the area of trust that begins to change as far as how we rebuild and repair that. You almost have to measure trust differently. You do. Yes, in a sense, trust becomes now, is the ADHD spouse consistently taking their treatment seriously? Because we would expect some lack of follow-through, some distractibility. 

We wouldn’t expect a neurodivergent person to act like a neurotypical. So that’s not going to happen, but what we can do is say, are they taking their treatment seriously? Yeah. Are we communicating? Is the health of communication growing and the affection shown towards me increasing. And those components can be healthy to consider when we think about building trust. 

I really like that. So now at the outset, we said that there is a beauty as well as challenge in these different neuro states. Okay, so let’s come back to that point. Where is the beauty?  

So, I think the beauty and the gift of ADHD is exciting, thrilling, typically fun, adventurous in the moment, the ability to just kind of be flexible and go with the flow, like that is a gift and creative. Oftentimes they’re very creative. So those are some, just on the surface, someone with ADHD has those gifts and that can be a very beautiful thing and actually critical thing for all couples to have some level of in our relationship.  

Kaleb, what hope is there in getting these difficult interplays to become good and healthy, in a good and healthy place? 

I think there’s great hope, Matt. I certainly have seen it when couples together approach this as a team, right, and step into this understanding both ADHD, but also what it’s like to live with someone with ADHD. It’s not trying harder. It’s trying differently. It’s looking at this differently and trying in different ways. You don’t need to try any harder. We need to shift in the way we’re trying and what we’re focusing on the path to healing and reconciliation and whatever that looks like for a specific couple.  

I love that. I think that provides a great deal of context. I think the light certainly went on in my head to see the difficult nature of these relationships, but also the beautiful hope, and I trust for each of our listeners that you’ve also found that and thanks, Kaleb, for helping us see this a bit more clearly that we can live wisely together and in a beautiful place regardless of our neurodiversities, right? 

Absolutely. Yeah. Good to be with you. Thank you.