The Rise of Psychedelics Podcast Episode

God calls us over and over in the Bible to use our minds. We
know that the mind is powerful, and we’re also cautioned about being deceived.
We are thankful for this beautiful tool of the mind. We want to protect it, and
we want to thank God for the potential that the mind has. And so, part of that
is being stewards of what we do to our minds, both in ways that are healthy and
ways that may not be healthy, but also just to be grateful for the amazing
power and potential that we have to seek after wisdom.

Welcome, everyone, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to
you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent as always
to have you along. My name is Matt Kaufman. I have psychiatrist Aaron Plattner
with me today. Good to see you. Yeah, you as well. Via internet. I’m going to
call upon Aaron’s profession here in today’s topic.

Aaron, I want to talk about psychedelics. Aaron is a
psychiatrist and a person who is actively engaged in understanding the nature
of the brain and what’s happening here. Aaron, let’s start this conversation by
just saying it seems to me that psychedelics are on my radar, okay, and if
they’re on my radar, that means that something is bubbling up in the culture
for me to even know the term and to think it to be a relevant conversation.

Am I right in saying that there’s more conversation and more
abuzz about psychedelics at this time and place? Is that a true statement or am
I missing it? No, you’re absolutely correct. We have seen even at the
psychiatric conferences I go to that some of the most popular lectures that are
attended are about psychedelics, and just looking at different conferences,
articles, and literature there’s a swell of interest and research in
psychedelics, even to the point of President Trump passing a bill that’s going
to accelerate research into this field as well.

So, let’s just start with what psychedelics are. When I think
of psychedelics, I think of mushrooms. Is that a good mental association? What
are psychedelics? And help bring clarity there. Yeah, probably one of the most
famous would be like LSD, which was synthetically made, and some of the other
ones would be what you mentioned, more natural like mushrooms.

But essentially, they’re a class of substances that alter or
change your sensory perception, thought process, time awareness, and emotional
state, which basically means as you take them, they’re going to change the way
that you see the world around you. So, we usually associate that with the word
trip. Had a trip on that different psychedelic substance.

So, how does a psychedelic then differ from medicine? For those
of us who are thinking about the difference between taking medicine or
psychedelics, would they be under the umbrella of medicine or drugs? That’s a
great question, and I think when you look at terminology, most people would
associate something like LSD or peyote or these different substances as drugs,
and I think part of that comes from the early 1970s where there was a law
passed, The Comprehensive Drug Abuse Prevention and Control Act, which
basically outlawed these different substances and would label them more as
drugs.

So, marijuana would also have been a part of that and was
outlawed or given this class that there’s no benefit medically. So, that would
shift it over to drugs. Medications would be things that we also take, but they
have benefits for medical or psychiatric purposes. And so, a lot of the shifts
that we’ve seen and talked about this previously with marijuana, is this
shifting from these drugs to maybe they will have more medical benefits.

And so, they’ve shifted away from that different classification
that said there’s no benefit at all. So, when you think about Western medicine,
which we’d say would be more of the medications versus the psychedelics, you’re
going to think that the traditional medications are going to be this daily
regimen where you take the same medication consistently day in and day out for
longer term use.

Whereas the psychedelics would be more like you take it
episodically, one to three sessions a year or so. They’re hoping that the
psychedelic treatments are going to help the brain change the way that it
functions or changes the connectivity whereas medications are going to alter
neurotransmitters.

Can I interrupt here? Yeah. Because I perceive in that comment
that there is now an opening of a door that says, “Wait a minute, this
might be helpful in treating people.” So, you mentioned psychedelics being
used in treatment. So, yeah, professionals are using psychedelics to treat
people.

Is that a true statement? This is correct. And is that legal?
That’s legal because those things have been lifted? In some ways. So, it
depends. Yeah. Good question. So, we know that one type of psychedelic is
ketamine, and ketamine is legal for people to take intranasally for depression.

There are ketamine clinics that are giving it IV. It’s not that
it’s necessarily illegal, they just don’t have the FDA, which is the Federal
Drug Administration approval to say, “We approve this use of
ketamine.” Certainly, there are people who have traveled outside the
United States to take part of these different healing centers where people will
take these different psychedelics together in community.

Here in the United States, in 2006, Johns Hopkins did study on
one of the psychedelics called psilocybin and had promising results, and that
really started pushing some of the research. And so, in the state of Oregon,
some of these substances are made legal as well. Other states have not made it
legal.

So, it depends on what the specific substance is, and it
depends on what state you’re in, which would say if it is or isn’t illegal. So,
can I map that comment on a previous comment you made about being Western
medicine as opposed to what? Have psychedelics been a part of medicine or
treatment in other parts of the world for quite a long time?

So, depending on the sources, it is clear that at some level,
psychedelics have been around for a very long time. Now, how much of a role
they have or have not played in society, I think, is one of the things that’s a
bit more controversial or up for interpretation. I think one of the things
that’s also pushing this renewed interest is basically podcasts.

There are a lot of very famous podcasters that are touting the
benefits of these different substances. They would point out that in many
different societies, psychedelics have been used in ways to have these new ways
of thinking about things and have come up with profound shifts in humankind and
their development.

So, there is clear evidence that these psychedelics have been
used. And if you think of different indigenous cultures in South America,
peyote or different things are used by traditional healers. They have used
those substances in a way to promote healing within the community.

It’s just not widespread in Western traditional medicine. What
are they healing? Is it a headache? Is it a broken arm? I’m assuming not. What are
they attempting to heal? From a psychiatry perspective, I look at these
different substances, and on one hand, I say, “Wow, let’s not push ahead
too fast, and let’s slow down and let the research find where it is or isn’t
beneficial and in what doses.”

But I also have to understand that across America, we’re having
increased rates of all sorts of psychiatric illnesses. I think one of the
probably more well-known is PTSD. Someone who’s had a trauma, and they have a
stress response to that trauma, which can be haunting in some ways. And as a
psychiatrist, that population is very difficult to treat, and it usually is
going with more talk therapy and also medications.

And so, what the psychedelic treatments are saying is,
“Look, we can treat PTSD in one or two of these, basically
psychedelic-assisted therapy.” So, the person will go into an environment,
and they’ll have their eyes closed with a mask, and they’ll sit with at least
two therapists who will provide them with something like psilocybin.

And then they will talk them through their experience with
psilocybin to discuss some of the traumas and some of the things that happened
with the hope that the psilocybin’s going to help make different connections
that weren’t there previously. And by making these new connections maybe this
will help the person work through their different traumas.

So, an example that was provided is if I go skiing down a
mountain, and I go down the same path every single time, I have developed this
pathway that is just comfortable and is easy for me to go. But if I were to
have snow dumped on the mountain, then perhaps that one path that I look at and
I always want to go down, is not there.

And all of a sudden, I’ve opened myself up to all these
different paths on this mountain that I didn’t go down because of this new view
of life. And so, we have this system in our brain that’s like basically this
default mode where when we think different things, we have this certain path,
we have these disinhibitions, if you will, that cause us to maybe not go in a
specific way because of experiences or different kind of traumas.

And the psychedelics are going to open that up so then people
can traverse down that road and once again make connections of maybe why the
trauma happened to gain peace. Now, that’s what therapy and meds are supposed
to do. The medications can help tamper or blunt some of that anxiety or those
emotions with trauma, and then the talk therapy will help them process or work
through those things.

Whereas taking the psychedelics, people will say that these
experiences are some of the most profound experiences they’ve had in their
life. And if you would look up different famous people, they will tout the
benefits of these experiences they’ve had.

Further, they’ll say, “I had one experience, and it lasted
for a significant amount of time.” The experience helped them heal for
months after they had the specific treatment. And the thought would be because
it shut down the default network, that default inhibition of people trying to
process through these things, new ideas are discovered, new connections are
made, and that’s where people have these, quote-unquote,
“breakthroughs.” That’s the hope of a lot of people with PTSD, but
they’ve expanded it into other areas. So, some people have said, “I know I
should stop drinking alcohol, but I can’t.” And so, they take these
psychedelics, have this session with therapy, and all of a sudden, once again,
they have this connection, and therefore alcohol is not as powerful as it once
was.

So, you see we have a powerful mind-changing agent. Is that a
good way to say it? That is the theory. The hypothesis, yes. This is going to
change the mind in a powerful and substantial way that will help that
breakthrough. Can you get into the neurology of it? What is medicine doing, and
what is the psychedelic drug doing? I remember from other conversations with
medicine, for example, you’ve got neurotransmitters, and you’ve talked about
that and how you are amping up one or maybe dampening another. Are psychedelics
doing something altogether different?

In a way, yes. So, most of the psychedelics are working on
serotonin, that receptor, which is what we talk about SSRI, serotonin selective
receptor inhibitors. So, they are working on that serotonergic pathway. Now,
when you say SSRI, that’s a medicine. That is a medicine, yes. So, they work on
that same neurotransmitter, which is usually affiliated with anxiety or
depression, those sorts of issues.

Now, the SSRIs are supposed to interact with different parts of
the brain. Once again, it’s almost blunting, and I’m nervous to use the word
blunt because I don’t want to say that it takes people away, but it can help
with some of the pathways that are contributing to anxiety and depression.

But with the psychedelics, it’s going to not so much blunt, but
once again, just have that more of that opening up. So, the different pathways
that have been restricted for whatever reason are no longer restricted. So, for
example, the amygdala is something that’s a fear response. I once got T-boned
in a car when I was driving at an intersection, and I remember the next time I
got into the car, there was this heightened anxiety. There was just this
heightened response of my goodness, remember the last time you got into a car,
you got hit. And so, there was this surge of anxiety, and that’s more the
amygdala saying “Watch out. Be careful.” Now I can override that. I
can say, “It’s okay,” and I can kind of reason through it.

But if someone had such a huge disinhibition from a trauma, the
amygdala’s firing a ton in all of these areas of watch out, which can be
paralyzing. And so, medications can help restrict that or blunt that response,
whereas the psychedelics can say, “Hey, let’s pull that back so then you
can look at the situation in a different way.”

And once again, making those connections with the therapy. And
some of these therapy sessions last for hours. And I think it’s crucial to say
that these studies are being done in a very tight, controlled setting with
tight, controlled doses with professionals who help work through the different
experiences that the person has had.

So, they’re very intense, and they’re very long, and the person
is reportedly waking up after that and saying, “I never realized these
things, and now I have a certain peace about it.” There’s an amount of
mental flexibility that a person has on a trip that a therapist is trying to
play on.

Yeah. Whereas the medicine somewhat allows for connections to
be made by playing maybe some defense. The trip that allows for that seems to
be more offensive or it seems to allow for some dexterity. Yeah. So, you would
say that the SSRIs or the medications are going to alter baseline
neurotransmitters, whereas the psychedelics are going to basically trigger this
neuroplasticity.

It’s going to trigger or create different connections that
weren’t there. Okay. So, what’s happening chemically in the brain with a
psychedelic? I’m sure it’s way over my head. That is a wonderful question that
they’re doing a lot of research on. But when they look at the brain, they can
see these increased activities in different areas of the brain in connection
that generally are not in connection.

And it must also be said that setting is a very significant
issue in psychedelics versus traditional medications. So, I have to know what
my set is. What is my brain? What am I bringing into the condition when I take
the substance? So those who have a religious background are going to be much
more likely to report a religious experience versus those who don’t have a
religious background.

Also in the setting, are you in a place that is comfortable and
peaceful and non-threatening? Whereas you even hear these terms that the person
had, quote, “a bad trip,” end quote. A bad trip could be where
someone went into a condition and the setting is disturbing or alarming, and in
that altered state it created a sense of confusion which made them very
unsettled.

So, when you talk about psychedelics, the interesting thing is
who is the person taking it and what is in their mind and what is the setting
that they’re in that can significantly impact their experience. And I also
think one thing that’s very different is, when you see these people travel
overseas, they will take the psychedelics as a community.

It almost becomes this community encounter or experience
together in which they gather and take whatever psychedelic they take and then
have this time where they break bread and eat with each other. So, there can be
this almost religious-type element to psychedelics that you don’t usually see
with other types of substances.

Okay. So, this is very interesting. You didn’t explain what’s
happening in the brain, and it could be because you know that I do not have the
capacity to understand it. But I perceive there’s some mystery. Is that a true
statement? I think there’s great mystery, and when I do the research or watch
the interviews, most of the experts will say, “We’re not quite sure. We
think, or we’re hoping.” And once again, it, depending on what substance
they’re taking. The same pathway pulling back that default network can be
suppressive to open up connections. But once again, the specifics of how that
happens we don’t really know. Okay. Now, we’ve talked about it being used
medically, so that’s one category.

And I’m assuming that recreational use is at a height as well
now. Is that true? So, I don’t know statistics, but I think when people think
about psychedelics, they do think of the hippies, right? The hippies and LSD,
where they would take that together as this experience that they have.

We’re seeing more interest primarily in the medical realm, I
think as a response to the growing psychiatric conditions that people have. But
one thing I’ll say that’s very different from psychedelic than traditional
medicines is that people who describe themself as being healthy or not having
significant psychiatric ill- illness also are taking psychedelics as a way to
maximize their potential, as a way to find their betterment or maybe to provide
insights into pursuing or growing their relationships or their business ideas.

So, you do have this different slant of people who are
interested saying, “Look, maybe if I take this, I’m going to make some
connections that’s going to really grow my career.” Yeah. Or, “It’s going
to help me be more of a social person.” And this is a different spin on
things than what we’ve seen in the past, where people who are, quote unquote,
“healthy” aren’t necessarily taking it maybe to feel good like
alcohol or marijuana, just to feel good. But you have people interested,
“I’m taking this so that I can have a higher status of being,” so to
speak, “that I can have more insights to actually grow my already
perceivable healthy life.” Okay, so now if we look at the traditional
drugs such as cocaine and marijuana, even alcohol, and we understand the ditch
of recreational use that can be harmful, in fact, tragic.

Do we have the same element with psychedelics? We really don’t,
and the fact that there’s not a significant percentage of people who get, quote
unquote, “addicted” to this. And I think that’s one of the main
arguments of people who are pushing psychedelics, saying “Look, if you want
to look at what’s the most harmful for people, as in who intake it, and then
people who are affected by the people who are taking it, alcohol is way up
there.”

You think about people who drink alcohol, problems with their
liver, problems with it can cause cognitive things, they can fall, or drunk
driving accidents, right? You can see that alcohol can be very addictive, and
it can cause a lot of problems. They’re pointing out that with psychedelics; there’s
not this high percentage of people who actually get addicted to it.

And yes, when you’re under the experience, you need to be
careful, but there’s not a lot of concern for withdrawal. And even after
someone takes the psychedelic, which they usually take once, twice, a couple
times a year, right? That would be quite extreme. Some of these people are
taking it saying “I’ve had a couple experiences two, three times in my
lifetime.”

But you don’t usually have significant residual symptoms except
for some people who will take particularly LSD. They can have basically a
flashback. Something triggers in their mind that reminds them of taking it, and
so they have another experience like when they took it before, so they can have
a flashback in a moment, even when they’re not under the experience.

So, there are some concerns about the flashbacks, but really,
when you look at the data, compared to things like alcohol or marijuana, which
we see are growing in legality, psychedelics don’t have that same significant
potential risk of harm that we see with the other substances. Now, I’m not
saying that because I’m promoting it to be legal.

I’m saying I can see how people compare this to other things
that are legal and saying why not use this if this can also be of help to
people with less risks? All right. That’s helpful. So, let’s talk about
prudence and wisdom then. As a believer, how do you process these, or how
should we be thinking? What are some of the questions that we should be asking
ourselves when we think about its use and understanding it in our larger
culture?

So, a few things that make me a little bit concerned about the
psychedelics. One of the things that makes me very concerned about it is it
seems to almost be a shortcut to sanctification. And what I mean by that is,
God has called us to reason with one another, to be in community with one
another, to be in fellowship, to encourage and, maybe have times of admonition
towards one another, to build those relationships, and that’s hard.

And sometimes I think it’s been through some very hard and
difficult seasons that God has showed up and showed his grace and his mercy and
has really established relationships, and I think that we can all have a
testimony of that. What makes me nervous is some people say, “Hey, if I
just take this, one time and have this experience, I’m going to grow immensely
closer to God. I’m going to be able to have these amazing experiences and have
this breakthrough in my, Christian walk or spirituality.” And I almost
wonder, is this a little bit of a shortcut? Kind of like in Acts where the
magician was going to the disciples to say, “I’m going to give you money
so I can get this Holy Spirit,” and he was rebuked.

It doesn’t work like that. So, I get nervous when I hear these
amazing spiritual breakthroughs through the use of psychedelics, wondering if this
is going to maybe replace what God has called us to be in communion with other
people. Can I ask and maybe push back on that a little bit, Aaron, is it the
method that concerns you, or do you question the end as being authentic?

Do you know what I’m saying? Yeah. I think at some level we
don’t know what this is going to look like long term. We just don’t have the
data for it. Part of me goes back to the point of, I understand that people
have been using this for a very long time, and that different cultures have
been using this for a very long time.

When people say, “We’ve got this amazing breakthrough, and
we’ve got this amazing new treatment,” but this is something that’s been
around for a long time, there’s almost a kind of comfort in not inventing
something new, which sometimes I get it has connotation of pharmaceutical
companies trying to make money.

Look, we’ve got this original natural thing, this different
mushroom or- A new potion … a different plant. And yet at the same time
saying, but if this has been around for a long time, why isn’t this being used
like worldwide decades, centuries ago? Because if something does work, people
tend to get hold of it.

Now, I understand they’re saying, look, Richard Nixon with his
war on drugs, killed this potential growth that we could have. But I’m still
saying in other countries that don’t have the laws that we have, why aren’t we
seeing amazing breakthroughs of people who are having all sorts of different
healings and all sorts of different substance or psychiatric and medical
conditions, addressed or fixed by these things?

The fact that it’s been around for a long time but hasn’t shown
this consistent improvement just brings to me that this is probably not as
great as we’re thinking. If things are too good to be true, it just might be
that. So, I’ve been around in psychiatry long enough that we’ve had these
different treatments that have come and gone, and they come with great pomp and
great excitement.

And then as you try to do it in practice, there are some people
who have been helped, there are some people who also have not helped, and some
treatments stick around and a lot of treatments go away. So, I’m glad about
this excitement about it, but I hesitate because historically something has
stifled its growth.

And the other thing is the whole placebo effect, which means if
I believe this thing is going to work, it’s probably going to work. So, you get
people in these studies, and there’s great excitement with the people who are
doing the studies, and there’s great excitement of people who are actually
taking part in the studies.

They’re wanting this treatment, which is why they’re signing up
for it. And the best way to do a treatment is take a group of people and give
them a placebo which is like a sugar pill, and then you match them or make them
the same as the other group of people who are actually taking the treatment,
and then you follow them forward.

So, the people who are getting the treatment versus not don’t
know if they’re actually getting the treatment, and the people who are giving
them the medications or the placebo don’t know either, which is called a
double-blind test. They don’t know that they’re getting it, and the other
people don’t know they’re giving it to them.

And then as you go through the study, some people separate and
they’re getting better versus the others are not. That’s your best way to
treat. It’s really difficult to give someone a psychedelic and give someone not
a psychedelic and the people not getting it realizing, “Oh I’m getting
placebo or I’m not,” versus those that are getting it.

They generally know they’re getting it because of the
experience. And I know they’re trying to work that out in a different way, but
those studies inherently are going to have some of those flaws because it’s
really hard to differentiate who does or doesn’t get the treatment.

And with all that excitement, you see these really amazing studies,
and how do you separate what is excitement about this new treatment study and
what is just placebo? So, what is true and what is bias is really tricky with
the research surrounding psychedelics. Yes. So, I am all about how we can
figure this out and what we can do to really determine how we may be able to
treat some people who haven’t really gotten better with other treatments.

But sometimes people get very excited and it moves ahead of science.
And sometimes people know how to make money off these things. And so, my
concern is the same concern I had for ketamine, and it’s the same concern I
have for cannabis, is that people are starting to do research, but then it
became legal, and it became this Wild West of let’s do all these kinds of
treatments, and people who were charging a lot of money to provide these
treatments.

I’m concerned that science is just not going to catch up with
how quickly it’s getting released into the environment around us. Critical to
the Christian is our belief and faith. I think of Paul who writes, “Don’t
be drunk, but be filled with the Spirit.”

This idea of not giving oneself over to other faculties. I’m
curious. In your reflection on psychedelics, does that translate here with
psychedelics? How should a believer think about a trip? There’s a condition
called microdosing, which gives very low doses of these psychedelics that
people say they’re still cognizant and they’re still aware.

So, I think when you understand how these things are being
taken, number one, I’d make sure that they’re taken in a very controlled
setting where you have someone who is very professional, knows what they’re
doing, with an end goal of some sort of response of trying to work through some
sort of trauma or try to work through something that’s causing a lot of
distress.

Not to replace what God has called us to do in community and
our sanctification of reading and praying and being in community. But I’m
hesitant to say that the Bible prohibits this well-calculated use that might
have some benefits. But I think recreational, I would have concerns about that
because I do think that the fact that people can have these experiences, which
are very unsettling under the experience of psychedelics, I think that would
violate Paul’s call to be sober-minded and be alert and aware.

I also would caution people against doing it as far as some
sort of fun experience without any specific goal in mind. I don’t know if
that’s going to be honoring to God if taken in that way.

Help me understand even a trip. So, let’s, for example, take
alcohol. For an alcoholic, the response to alcohol is repeatable. It’s the same
thing. It plays itself over again. It’s quite predictable. Drunkenness looks
like this for that particular individual. That particular individual is going
to get drunk 100% of the times that they drink like that, and their behavior is
going to look like that, and their experience is going to look like that.

There’s something very predictable about it. I’m curious about
a trip. Does a person have the same experience by the same dosage in the same
setting, or is it wildly different from one trip to another? And I guess I’m
trying to ask about the consistency, predictability, or is it much more varied?
I think it would be much more varied, once again, depending on who’s taking
what and who’s helping them under the influence.

That’s going to change quite a bit. Because you mentioned that
setting is so important. Yeah. This is a similar concern with marijuana. If you
would go to your local dispensary, it is not FDA-approved as far as what
they’re actually dispensing, so you don’t really know what you’re getting,
right?

And so, if you would go down to, some South American country,
you’re not guaranteed that what you’re being provided is actually that. So,
ketamine would be an example, so ketamine is given intranasal, you know exactly
what someone is getting, and you know why they’re specifically getting that.

And ketamine, in a way, is an anesthetic, so we would never say
to someone, “Don’t take this anesthetic to get a surgery that you
need.” Your appendix has burst. You need an anesthetic to make you
unconscious so that you can be treated medically, that this appendix could be
removed, right?

Or so a cancer surgery could be done. So, in the same way, if
you have someone who has this specific psychedelic medicine that they’re
getting, and they’re providing it for you with a specific goal, and you know
it’s in a controlled setting, I do think that there can be some health to that.

But if you are in a place which looks different than when
you’re getting it, you don’t know what specifically you’re getting, and also
your mindset of that is different, you could have a quite variety of different
experiences taking that substance, which would probably look different from
alcohol, like you mentioned, because really, yes, there are different types of
alcohol, but alcohol in of itself generally does the same thing to the brain,
whereas, the psychedelics, those different connections can create a varied
response.

I’m circling back, and I find it very interesting that the
medical profession and scientists don’t exactly know what’s going on in the
brain with psychedelics. Is that concerning at all? Is that super troubling to
professionals to be like, “Okay, yes, it seems like it’s having some good
outcomes, but we don’t even know what it’s doing chemically and biologically in
the brain”?

So, the hope is that psychiatry will quote-unquote, “catch
up” to other medical fields where they can do scans or different tests to
see what’s going on. But at the end of the day, how does the body heal? Like,
how does the body really heal itself? That is a mystery, and there are a lot of
psychiatric treatments that are not particularly well-known how they work.

So, for instance, ECT is electrical convulsive therapy where
someone has a seizure induced that can treat depressive symptoms. ECT has been
going on for a significant amount of time, and there’s a lot of controversy
around it. It does help people pull out of their depression. But if you talk to
the leading experts, they have a lot of theories, but we don’t particularly
know how ECT works.

And so, even with some of the medications, we have lots of
theories and we have lots of data, but the data isn’t always the most
conclusive, nor is it repeatable to say, “This is how this medicine does
or does not specifically work.” So, I think psychedelics are probably a
bit down the road as far as that mystery, and people would argue that’s because
we don’t have the research done on it.

But I think it does join this this group of psychiatric
treatments that we can see by the data it works, but how it works, we’re not
100% sure. So, I think that is troubling and we’d like to know more about it,
but that’s also the reality of this area that we work in. And so, we look at
new findings, and we try to adapt that into the patient population that we
treat. But at the end of the day, what I’m really looking at is this treatment
helping the person or not? If it’s not, what can we change based on the
information I received from them and then move forward from there.

Let’s go back to that Christian worldview and understanding.
You mentioned sanctification. You mentioned that we sometimes want to shortcut what
may be God’s longer process in changing our mind. But what else would you have
to say as it concerns the Christian understanding of mind, faith, belief, and
psychedelics. Yeah. I grieve with those who are struggling with various
psychiatric ailments, and I long for healing for many different people who have
many different issues.

And I’m hopeful that we’ll have better treatments, but I also
rest that we have everything we need provided for us through God’s Word and the
working of the Holy Spirit in our local church community and body. And so, by
people leaning into what is available, this has been a treatment for many
centuries, that early Christians have also suffered with many things, and
they’ve been able to find peace in Christ and what he has been providing for
us.

I caution people not to say, “Oh, this thing is going to
be it. This is going to be the key to unlocking all these things.”
Sometimes it just feels like we are forgetting what we already have through
Christ and what we already have through his Word and community. And leaning on
those things can be very helpful and beneficial.

And so, we are thankful for the foundation that we have and are
cautiously optimistic about what God is allowing us to learn and what he has
provided for us here on his earth. I think he made these mushrooms and these
different leaves that have these properties for a reason. I don’t know what that
is, but they’re there for a reason to glorify him. And so, I just exercise
caution with people. Once again, I have seen a lot of different treatments come
through, and there’s a lot of excitement, and they fizzle out. And I’m hoping
that some people are treated by this, but I would want them to really hold on to
the truths of God’s Word and the community and in prayer before just jumping to
this new potential treatment.

That’s good. I appreciate that there is a concern that a person
through a trip would have their faith unsettled, for example, or have their
perspective changed in a way that could deconstruct all that they previously
believed. Yeah, I can’t speak to the specifics if someone would deconstruct or
maybe that their vision of the Lord would change. What concerns me is that
someone would rely more on their experience while taking a psychedelic than
actually what has been revealed to them in Christ. If their foundation of their
faith or just their Christian walk is based more on this amazing experience
they had while taking psychedelics versus through prayer and reading God’s
Word, that’s where I’d see it almost becoming an idolatry issue.

And I think when you hear people say, “When I took this
psychedelic, it was one of my top three experiences of life,” that seems
very powerful, and that seems very idol-like. And so, I would just caution
people not to give it more weight than it should have. I would rather have
people cautiously and under good, sound research and providers say, “I’m going
to take this experience in order to treat this psychiatric condition,”
depression or trauma, “in order that I now can be freed from that to then
serve the Lord better or to have the ability to be more active in my church
body.”

So, the experience, I would hope, would be the means by which
they are then able to better serve the Lord and to draw closer to him, not that
the actual experience itself becomes the vehicle to serve the Lord by that
experience. Once again, I think that’s almost manufacturing these kinds of
experiences that sometimes need to come from just trusting and waiting on the
Lord for him to provide.

 I really like that
caution. If this becomes your top connection or top experience you had with
God, it should be a warning sign, right? That we would live with God in such a
real way that we would find moments in normalcy with Christ to be the sweetest
moments of all. Yeah.

Now, I want you to speak here to this recreational use. We are
not encouraging recreational use to some 16-year-old who’s found psychedelics
at a party. Yes. But what do they need to know? If a person’s going to say no
to marijuana, why are they saying no to it? Or if they’re going to say no to
the bottle, they’ve got some understanding that says, “You know what? I
know that about alcohol. I know that about marijuana. I know that about
cocaine. Those are things that I don’t want.” What would you say to, let’s
say, young people, for example, who encounter psychedelics today to say,
“Listen, you need to understand this so that you can be more resolved in
your no”?

Yeah. So, some of them can have cardiovascular consequences.
People who have high blood pressure or heart problems should be careful with
that. Some of them like Echinacea, which is a kind of plant that they take in
community. If you’re on an SSRI, it can interact with that, and you can have
side effects of serotonin syndrome.

I would say for the majority of people, if they want to take it
recreationally, besides the spiritual issues that we discussed before, they
need to know what they’re taking. Because higher doses can cause those bad
trips, as you say, or if they’re taking it in a place that is not safe, it can
be quite a frightening situation or frightening scenario.

So, I would say to people from purely not a spiritual
perspective, that taking these different conditions, you are going to be in an
altered status or your mind’s going to be altered and so it’s going to be receptive
or open to both good and bad inputs.

And so, if it’s not specifically taken for a goal and it’s
taken more for recreation and you can’t really control your environment and
your mind is not in the right setting to have some sort of healing and moving
forward, you’re really vulnerable. And I’d say it’s the same thing as they
don’t have us drive after dental work. They don’t have us drive after
anesthesia from different, surgical conditions. Why? Because your brain is in
this place where it’s not thinking critically and it’s not aware of the
surroundings around us, and that places you at risk of harm both as far as
obviously driving, but I think for other people, because they don’t know what’s
around them. I think it can really set them up to have some bad experiences
that may be harmful in their future.

That’s helpful. Land the plane by talking about the brain, its
mystery, and God. How’s that sound? Yeah, God calls us over and over in the
Bible to use our minds to gird up our minds and to be thinking things that are
of the Lord. We know that the mind is powerful, and we’re also cautioned about
being deceived.

And so, there are even books writing about the battle for the
mind and taking every thought captive. So, we’re thankful for this beautiful
tool of the mind. We want to protect it, and we want to thank God for the
potential that the mind has. And so, part of that is being stewards of what we
do to our minds, both in ways that are healthy and ways that may not be healthy
in the same aspect, but also just to be grateful for the amazing power and
potential that we have to praise the Lord and to serve others as we seek after
wisdom.

Thanks a lot, Aaron. I really appreciate your expertise, your
counsel, and your wisdom as we encounter all kinds of matters medically and
psychologically. I think it’s been really helpful. Thanks for sharing. Thank
you.