Marital Drift Podcast Episode

So, you can be in the same house, you can physically be together, but yet there’s this sense that at some point you feel miles apart. Welcome, everyone, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. My name’s Matt Kaufman. Kaleb Beyer is with me, and we’re going to talk about marital drift. 

Yeah. Something that you’ve talked about before, and I was privy of that, and I think there is some really important content here, and I’d like to bring that to our audience. Let’s first start, as we set this up, drift is a good word. When I think of drift, I think of slow. I think of movement when I’m not detecting movement. We were down at the beach over spring break with the kids, and they’re playing in the ocean, okay. And you’re not paying attention, you kind of move slowly and you don’t notice there’s a distance until all of a sudden, you look up and say where are Mom and Dad at? Where are we supposed to be right now? Yes. So true.  

There’s this incremental movement that we’re unaware of. And at the beach is one thing. In marriage, it’s another thing. Yeah. And so, we pretty quickly see the seriousness of it. And I think we all wake up thinking, yes, I should probably be thoughtful about marital drift. 

Is that a fair setup to the topic? Yeah, I think so. The piece of oh, this happens subtly and quietly is accurate. And I think the thing about it is the movements are small, and sometimes we don’t pick it up until there’s a great distance. Then we start to realize, “Oh, what did we miss?” 

And I think part of that is just the axis that we’re working on here, and it’s not one of physical proximity. Yeah. And so, you can be blind to all that is in motion because we’re close in proximity. Yeah. Which is the case for many marriages. 

Yeah. But we’re talking about distancing of another type. Not one of proximity as much as relationally. Yeah, but it’s something that doesn’t happen overnight, right? Drift is about that subtle, ongoing something that doesn’t happen overnight, but over a period of time. All right. Let’s paint this picture of marital drift as you see it in couples. What does it look like? How does it happen? What should we be on alert for? And then certainly we want to talk about remedy.  

Yeah. So, some of this, what it looks like we stepped into, is just the whole idea that routine replaces intimacy. So, the idea of just finding ourselves going through the motions. I don’t know if you’ve experienced that in your life. Yep. I’m sure you have at some level. It’s like I’m just doing things, but there’s no joy in them. There’s not that experience of deep connection or meaningfulness, and I would say drift is like that in the sense of we’re going through the motions, but there’s no spark. 

There’s no sense of joy. And we would say, obviously, there are days that are like this, but this is kind of ongoing. So, would intimacy be something on the radar that would give a pretty big indicator? The sense of how close we feel to each other, but also the felt sense of how much my spouse knows of my inner world, my experiences, what’s going on in life, and so we’re doing things, getting things done but without the sense of intimacy. Do marriages atrophy in that? Yep, I know who she is. Yep, I know who he is. Got him figured out. Got her figured out. Is there a sense that we let off the gas on that? 

Yeah. Yes, I do think we let off the gas over time. I don’t think it’s intentional. I think, generally speaking, as a couple becomes engaged, in their early years in relationship, there’s a lot of newness. There’s a lot of discovery. There’s a lot of general excitement, joy, and you’re just growing, as far as what you’re learning, engaging in, and discovering. 

But over time, there are other responsibilities and things that come into life, and your life begins to change. Even in good things, good responsibilities, whether it’s kids, or church response, or work. And so, then the picture begins to shift, and both may now be pouring into other things even together. I think one of the things about drift is that we can be independently growing and learning, but it isn’t the sense that we’re sharing in it together.  

And so yeah, I think over time we kind of let our foot off the gas. We can take for granted the one who we love the most, and in small ways begin to pour into other things and make sacrifices at home, that then over time it begins to drift. And I wonder how much is due to the fact that we lose practice a little bit because of all of the other things. Pouring into kids and career and ministry perhaps, or other passions and those types of things. 

Yeah. There’s a lot that can distract a marriage. When at the outset, not so much. Yes. Correct. I don’t remember who said this, but I just remember this phrase, reinforcement erosion, and this idea that we need to reinforce our commitment. It’s not, “Oh, I told you I loved you,” I need to continue to be reminded of, wow, thanks for the wonderful things you do. Or I see God working in your life. That’s not something that stops, but over time we can say, “Oh, they know that.” Yeah. I think about it, but I don’t share it as much. We have to be creative. Yeah. And I think realizing that we’re all changing over time provides new opportunities for intimacy in each other’s life.  

Now, I think that’s a profound and an important true statement. We are changing over time. Let’s linger on that point a little bit, Kaleb, as you hear the unfortunate narrative of marriages that break apart. And I’m thinking even in the wider culture. Okay. Yeah. A lot of times what is said is, we grew apart. We both took forks in the road, and we’re not the best for one another anymore. And you get a sense of this individual growth that has now grown us apart. 

And I don’t know if those are just coverup rhetoric for deep things that are really hurtful, but it’s almost like a nonchalant acceptance that this is the way people grow. Yeah. That’s right. I’d be glad for your take on that because I do think it is a little bit of the air we breathe when it comes to marriages in our current culture. Yeah. We have to understand that narrative. Yeah. And I think the piece of it at a fundamental level, I don’t know if this is where you want to take this, Matt, but at a fundamental level, what is the purpose for marriage?  

In a sense, I think culture has gone to that it’s about the best self, right? That I can become the best self. And as soon as that kind of has gone, what’s the purpose of marriage? And we would say certainly that marriage is a formation, a kind of discipleship, right? Yeah. Yep. We use that term. And so, in that sense, yes, God uses it to form us and grow us and hopefully become more in his likeness, but that’s not for the purpose of me. 

It’s for his glory and reflecting him and encouraging and supporting each other in that journey. It makes a lot of sense. And I think it’s important to tease that out so that we understand what we’re looking at. And we understand how these narratives play. 

Let’s go back to this drift thing. What are some other ways? What does drift look like? Yeah. I’d love to fill more of that space out. Yeah. So, some of the things I think we talked about a little bit that fade are the little things. I’ll hear, “Oh, we used to write love notes to each other. Early in the relationship it was like a regular thing that we did. Small thing.” “But we no longer do that.” So those small gestures that seem at the time like not a big deal. But it is a big deal. Yeah. And small gestures begin to fade over time, and that is another way that I think drift happens, is those small, seemingly somewhat insignificant, but actually are, significant things. 

So, maybe what we should have our eye towards is if those small things have matured and shifted to other small things, that’s probably okay. But if we have left off on the small things, that would be an indicator that says, man we might have some drift going on. Yep. 

I think one of the things, and I’m sure many have heard this, is that we find our conversation shifting from how are you doing to how are we going to get Jimmy to practice or how are we going to get Anne or more logistical conversations that begin to bleed in and take our focus. 

And if we’re not careful when we do have a breather, that’s what we’re going to. It’s like going down the list of whether it’s planning or tasks and it misses the heart, the person behind what we’re trying to accomplish. Does that make sense? Yes, it makes a lot of sense how that can become routine and the foundation for which a relationship is built is quite plausible with all the demands of life. And so, the remedy of that really is a calling back to what? That oneness of marriage.  

How do you coach a couple when you detect that’s what’s going on? Yeah. So, one of the things about drift is we never get there intentionally. It’s actually passive. One of the characteristics of drift is just don’t do anything and you’ll find yourself there. You’ll get there. Yeah. And so, one of the ways I think is intentional time where we are sharing and opening up and communicating about our feelings, our needs, what’s happening inside of us, our fears, our aspirations, our hopes, how God is working. 

Those things that aren’t about a calendar, logistics, schedule, or even things that have to do with church or work. All those things are good, but how are you doing? Does that make sense? But intentional time where we’re actually saying, “You know what? I know we need to talk about vacation and plans for vacation, but actually tonight, can we do this?” Yeah. I think that’s a powerful statement and awareness that drift is passive. So, it is somewhat the result of not doing some of these things. But I’m curious what other matters then would you say is how you fight against passive? 

Yeah. So, I think one of the ways that actually fighting against it is acknowledging that it’s happening, even with drift. I think all of us drift. Yeah. It’s a part of life. It’s going to happen, and I think part of it is just acknowledging it, beginning to recognize, we’re talking about the signs, but also recognize that it does happen. 

I think you’ve seen this video of couples. The speaker has couples come together in the middle, and then he just asks questions like, “Now, I want you to…” And they’re back-to-back. Okay. And he asks them questions like, “Okay, for every time that you didn’t go to bed together at the same time this past week, take two steps.” 

“Every time that you were together and you picked up your phone rather than having a conversation, take three steps.” And you get this picture of small steps and moments over time that were actually distancing. And so, recognizing what those things are, but also acknowledging that drift is a part of life, and I think part of the remedy is just together acknowledging that it’s happening. 

And I think part of the advantage of a conversation like this, Kaleb, is it does give words to it. Because sometimes I think bringing and broaching the topic can be a challenging thing. How do we have this conversation, right? Yeah. But using drift, for example, I think can be really helpful. 

It’s a shared language. Yeah. Are we drifting apart? Yeah. Is there distance where there once wasn’t? Where did that come from? How can we recover this? And do we want to? Which is a scary question, right? That some probably ask at some point. Yeah, for sure. 

Being able to verbalize, yes, I’m not sure where to take that, Matt. I’m just thinking through what I was going to say. I think for spouses to express their desire, “Hey, I miss you, I would like to grow closer.” I was just thinking through the scenarios, because I would imagine when drift goes for long enough, you have other ideas. Perhaps the distance seems overwhelming and how do we get it back? 

Absolutely. Yeah. Or maybe in the drift, we’ve made some bad choices that are going to be difficult now as a result of maybe even dealing with some of that kind of disconnection. Yeah, it’s interesting. I think one of the things in this whole vein of drift is certainly there are couples that are dealing with relationship struggles that are a result of a crisis. 

Okay? That happens, the affair but rarely. Oftentimes it is the slow fade over time. There was a drift that happened. Yes, exactly. It’s interesting based on John Gottman’s research, one of the things that he talks about is that two things prime couples for an affair: lack of intimate sharing and making negative comparisons. 

So, comparing my spouse negatively to others. And those don’t seem like big things. Yeah. But again, that doesn’t mean because we’re not doing them, we’re going to have an affair. It just opens the gateway for drift to happen, and the idea that even those difficult things that happen in marriages don’t happen overnight. 

They are over small, subtle, passive steps. I think that’s part of the real help in a statement like that, that simply says lack of sharing and intimacy and negative comparisons, which both of these things can creep in very easily. And to have an awareness that says, “Oh, these are warning signs.” This left unchecked with passivity is going to result in drift. I think that alone is valuable to know. Sure. Anyhow, I think Kaleb, you’ve already provided some remedy and some healthy course correction for marriages in drift, but what buckets would you give us in terms of thinking about these things if you want to keep your marriage from drifting? 

Yeah. So, I don’t know about you, but sometimes I’m looking for just this one thing that if I could just do this, it would change, it’ll fix it. Yeah, exactly. And these remedies are not like that. Actually, it’s in the vein of small but often is the whole idea. It actually has to be equal and opposite to drift. And if drift is slow, this is slow. Yes. If drift is subtle, this will be subtle. Yeah. Engaging in a similar way. If drift works on passivity, this works on intentionality. Yeah. So, we can predict a little bit about what these things are going to feel like, and yeah, it’s not a pill to take. Yeah. So, it can be like small things. This seems small, but it is a way to fight against drift, and that is consistently showing up, consistently following through on what you say you’re going to do or when you’re going to be home or whatever. 

So, Ange and I just had a conversation. I have a meeting tonight and it’s from 7:00 to 9:00 and usually it goes over. We’re talking about, okay, when are you going to be done? And if I tell her, “You know what? I’ll be home at 9:15,” and consistently I’m late, what does that communicate over time to her? So, those sorts of things. If I say that time, then I commit to being there, even when it says, “Hey, you know what? I need to leave. I need to go.” And so, I think it’s that consistency over time that challenges drift. Yeah. And maybe even with that example, you’re not only honoring her, so that would make sense, but there’s also a trust aspect to that? Yes.  

And so, speak maybe to trust and where that finds itself here in the marriage drift story. So, trust is the foundation for building intimacy. And even friendships are built out of this sense of, hey, you have my back. We’re in this together. And when you’re going about life, you have me in mind. It’s not just you. As we think about moving from a place of being single to married, now it’s us. Does that make sense? So, when I make decisions, even when it’s related to my own life, I am thinking about and being intentional about how does this impact Ange? It’s no longer just me. Does that make sense? Yeah. And so, I think part of building trust is making decisions with that in mind. 

You said trust was foundational. It is foundational. And it really runs with intimacy, doesn’t it? It does. Because you said at the outset how critical intimacy is to drift. Yes. But without trust, intimacy has nothing. It’s too scary to even try if there isn’t that sense of trust. I would say, with trust, it is built out of safety, okay? One of the things in working with couples is those that have broken trust, the first layer is truth. Openness, transparency. Then there’s this sense of safety, right? Emotional safety. Yeah. That I can open up, you’ll receive me, and then that builds trust, and then from trust we can experience intimacy.  

Because when I trust, it’s like the trapeze artist, right? That’s right. When you let go over here. It’s either nuts or trust. I’m not sure which it is. Yeah. That’s true. Yeah. I think more nuts than trust. But to the point of that’s what it feels like sometimes when I’m starting to open up my heart in those spaces, and to expect spouses to do that. You might even be caught on the other side of this. Yes. That’s good, Kaleb. Trust, intimacy what else?  

One of the things I think that happens with drift is that we’re also not intentional about repairing conflict discussions that didn’t go well. And repairing isn’t meaning even the sense of resolving that we both agree with some solution moving forward, but a repairing that says, “Oh, okay, I could see how that makes sense now that why felt this way, or you experienced it this way, or you responded that way.” Okay. So, that even gives us another metaphor to use, which is helpful. 

Drift sometimes is a loss of maintenance. Which now as I think about my house, for example, if I’m passive there, it’s going to go in disarray. Yeah. And it’s not going to go in disarray tomorrow, but it will over a decade. Yeah, absolutely. And that is a function of maintenance. It’s a function of repair. So that’s really helpful to think about repairing. For the couple that feels like, “Oh, my word, Kaleb, I don’t even know where to start with the repair,” where would you start? So again, I think starting with the acknowledgement that it is needed.  

So, as we think about a repair, there’s been a disconnect, and starting with acknowledging, “Hey, you know what? I would like to at least understand what happened, and I want to step into this. I know this is hard for both of us.” And I think with a level of tentativeness that can we learn together. Can we grow together? My encouragement is just to acknowledge together that this is really uncomfortable. 

This is scary. This is hard. Yeah. But let’s learn together. We can take breaks, right? We can step into conversations because I think sometimes, especially when conversations haven’t gone well, thinking about sitting down and having a conversation can be uncomfortable. But I think finding different ways to do it as well. Some couples find it helpful to go on walks rather than sitting on the couch together and having this conversation. So, thinking about creatively, okay, when we have discussions on repair, what environment or ways would help us step into that? There’s the intimacy first matter and repair a second matter. 

I’m just wondering, do you need the equity of intimacy in order to do repair? Yeah. But can we step into repair too soon or maybe too aggressive? Yeah. Certainly. I would say my initial thought, Matt, would be it’s a both/and. Okay. And it depends on what we’re repairing, right? Is this a repair that has been a conflict conversation, and generally our relationship has a level of friendship, there is a level of connection. 

That feels a lot different than a repair where there’s been a significant breach of trust or injury in the relationship. Yeah, that in itself isn’t just an easy repair. Yeah. So, we’re on a spectrum here of lots of different possibilities. Yeah. I really like that acknowledgement piece though, Kaleb, because that’s very doable. 

And really what that does is it allows for grace, which is going to be required. Because it sounds to me like it’s a real confession, is what it is. It’s a real humbling of sorts. We know that grace is given to the humble, and that’s just the way we are when we hear our spouse saying, “I think we’ve got some repair to do.” 

Yeah. “And I don’t know where to start.” Yeah. “But I’m in.” Yes, “I’m in.” And I think this piece of “I want to understand what it was like for you.” I think if we can approach it with a mindset of coming into the conversation where both want to be understood but also, I’m missing you. So, I think if we can acknowledge that, it also greases the skids to be able to step into a hard conversation and you used the word friendship, too, which seems to be germane to this whole thing. And just an observation, where drift can do some real damage, does some real damage to that friendship. 

Because with distance, allowing yourself to change in certain ways, and it’s pretty easy, probably, to look across the table and say, “it’s not the friend I married.” “A completely different person.” Yes. And I have to believe that’s experienced by some. Yep. Yeah. Which again, back to the small moments of things like we take this for granted, or just being able to express appreciation or thankfulness for what our spouse does, or appreciation for who they are. Again, those are things that are really important seeds to be planted to resist drift but are so easy to just let go and to not engage regularly. 

Yeah. And with so many matters of marriage and healthy marriage, you really need two that are in. Am I right? It’s hard to do this if one of the two doesn’t want to. Certainly. And Kaleb, have you found that in some marriages there’s, “You know what? I’m good with this.” Yeah. I’m good with where we’re at. The distance that we’ve drifted is what do you do, right?” Of course. I think for them that’s what works, and they’re okay with it for whatever reason. Yeah. In order to resist drift, it needs to be something we do together. 

Yeah. Kaleb, I always really appreciate these conversations, and we always want to hear from you, too. Have you seen marriages drift together again? And is there that hope, right? Yeah. Certainly, it’s something I see both within my own relationship but also couples that I work with, and it is something that’s common, I think, to all of us, both in various spheres, not just marriage relationships. We think about relationships in church or about family relationships. I was talking to somebody the other day about how infrequently I’m reaching out to my biological brother or parents for a phone call. 

It’s just that life fills up. Yeah. Now that’s really interesting, too, Kaleb, because I totally agree, and there’s something to be said, too, about how we change. Rebecca and I are not in a young marriage anymore. We’re not two young people married anymore. Yeah. And that’s different. And that’s something. And so, you have to learn how to love one another as you grow in different stages. Yeah. And so, I think that gives permission for a variety of things and what it can look like. 

But it is something to be reckoned with as we go through life. Am I right about that? Yes. For sure. Yeah. Which is both challenging and exciting. There are opportunities available through those stages. Yeah. Who are we now, and how do we glorify God in our relationship where we’re at? Yeah. But becoming closer is going to be part of that answer, I think. And I think that’s the encouragement we’ve heard here today. Yeah. So, I appreciate that. Thank you so much for your ongoing work in the lives of many marriages and also sharing that with us and our listeners. 

Good to be with you, Matt. Yeah. God bless each one of you. We have profound respect for the marriages that we speak to, knowing that it is a God-ordained, beautiful institution of relationship that we have. And so, we trust and pray this has been helpful. We’ll see you.