Between Apathy and Activism Podcast Episode

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent as always to have you along. I’m really excited about today’s conversation topic. I’ve got Kathy Knochel and Amber Miller to join me in that conversation. Welcome ladies. 

Thanks, Matt. Good to be here, Matt. It’s great to have you on. Amber, it’s been a while. It’s been maybe a couple years, so anyway. It does feel like it’s been a little bit. It’s good to be back. We’re long past due. And Kathy, your voice has not worn out, so don’t get insecure about that. No, not yet. Okay. This topic originated on my front porch over a cup of coffee with Rebecca, my wife. I thought she put her finger on an aspect of today’s culture that I think is worth considering and having a conversation more about. A more robust treatise of the topic you might say. 

And it was her experience, and I agreed with her, and I don’t know if it’s the nature of the way feeds work and the way the way information is passed along, the way that we coordinate as humans today. I don’t know. I suppose it probably can be mapped onto that at some sense. But her observation is that we seem to be very topically intense today. 

And let me explain what topically intense means. There are so many big issues that we should be opinionated about. And so, there’s a feeling of pressure that we need to care a lot about everything, and we feel sometimes shame when we don’t champion a cause in a way that’s being asked or being pressured or being expected, right? 

You can hear the refrain, “Don’t you care?” Everyone says, “Don’t you care about this legislation? Don’t you care about this social issue? Don’t you care about these particular matters?” And I could start listing them, and even in listing them, I would think our audience would all nod, and then they say, “Hey, not that one. That one we should care about.” Which would be more to my point, right? I would hit your issue, and you would say, “I love this conversation except for that one,” right? Because, Matt, there’s clearly some that are outlined in Scripture, and so there are some that are clearly more biblical than others, right? 

Okay, and now I have the advantage in two ways, Amber, seeing you in the video right here, which people can’t see, and knowing you personally to say there’s a lot behind that comment. So, I’m going to let you unpack what you meant by that. I think we’ve all found ourselves in those conversations where it’s just a- and again, it’s dangerous to start listing, but I am going to list a few. 

Adoption or caring for the elderly or missions. It seems like Scripture is painted with different outlines for what this looks like and what our commission is to step into these places. And so, I think that is where you can find yourself in these conversations and then feel really guilty afterward if you walk away and you’re like why aren’t I adopting? “Why aren’t I going to the mission field and taking my family?” And so, it can just feel challenging, especially when you do see some scriptural backing not to step into something. Yeah. And if you cared, you would recycle, right? And if you cared you’d certainly be writing your congressmen and women about that. 

And if you cared, you would be tithing to this organization, right? If you really cared. And again, mapped to very scriptural things. So, I appreciate that even the Scripture itself causes us to be activists at some level. When I say activists, action-oriented, doing something. And really, that’s where this finds itself. Yeah, just that piece of not only should you be doing something about it, but you should be fully educated on the topic. And that is where for me my overwhelm starts. How does one educate themselves on all of the topics and know both sides of it, what you should do, what you shouldn’t do, how you should say it, how you should not say it? 

So yes, not only are you called to action, but you’re actually called to be an expert in everything. I think that’s well said. So Amber, I want you to pick up painting out this space and give us perhaps a spectrum or a way that we can think about this topically intense world that we live in. What does it look like to live healthily in this space?  

So, one of the places my mind goes is just thinking about where I can find myself when I feel like I can’t be an expert. I can’t fully be educated about a topic I don’t have time to invest in. I find myself going to apathy. And so, I think that is a dangerous place to go at times. 

And one of the things that I think about with this topic is if that’s one bookend of a spectrum and maybe the other bookend is advocacy. What’s actually in between? And sometimes when you’re having these discussions, it feels like those are your only options. You’re either apathetic or you have to become an activist. 

And the reality is there are actually a lot of places in between where you can read a book about a topic, you can be prayerful for topics, you can show care and concern for those that are investing in different ways and do feel called to that efficacy. You can ask good questions, but you might not have to find yourself in one of those two places of either apathy or activism. 

Kathy, why do you think we tend towards apathy? I’m lumping myself in that. I would agree with that experience, Amber. I think what’s interesting is I hear the word apathy, and I actually have a little bit of an internal reaction of “We’re not supposed to be apathetic.” But what I wonder in this space, if because of how it has become distorted, like how much information we have access to has become a bit distorted, that actually apathy does have to be considered here. Where we normally would be like not a helpful place, but does that actually help us, I don’t know, realize that we do not have an infinite capacity for all of these things. 

So, I think sometimes people can choose apathy just because they don’t know what else to do, and it’s just “I can’t possibly care.” But could it also be, “I’m going to choose. I understand the biblical principle here, but I also am not going to choose to go farther than that,” which in this space could be considered a bit apathetic. 

Yeah. I hear what you’re saying here, Kathy, I really appreciate that, too. I really think that we’re further shading and coloring this conversation, which needs to be done, because we’re too black and white with it. I think that’s the problem that we’ve been too black and white. If you cared, then this would be happening. But what I hear you saying here, Kathy, is that sometimes we have to keep our eyes on certain things, which means they’re not on other things. And that might differentiate from one person to another. So, not having my eye on X, Y, or Z, I think we could creatively call that apathy. 

And I think Amber’s calling it something different and that’s fine. Am I hearing that right? Yes. That’s where some of the wisdom is, and your perspective is you’re going to have to let go of some things. I think so. And I think even if I would go back then and answer your question of “Why do people tend towards apathy?” I think that was the question. Does it almost feel a bit safer if I don’t know where all the landmines are in this situation, or something about it scares me, or if I start down this rabbit trail, I know myself personally that I’m going to have to feel like I have to become an expert. So, is that the reason people go towards apathy? 

Yeah. Amber, say more about this spectrum. You raised the term and I think we’re looking at this term from a couple different angles, which I think is really helpful. You start filling out that space. So again, I think there is a good question about capacity that comes into play here too. And so, not necessarily starting with the question of should this matter? But more of a question, what is my capacity in this particular topic? Or am I letting go of some things, as Kathy stated, that are more important that I should be invested in right now for the sake of this other thing? 

And one of the things I see is that people can really attach their identity to a particular cause at times. And so again, that can just be another landmine in this conversation where it can be difficult to engage or disengage without feeling like you’re dismissing another person who is invested or feels called to actually invest in this way. 

And so, I think you do have to step back, and as you look at the continuum of where do I find myself, ask yourself the question, okay, what is my capacity at the beginning? And how has the Lord already worked on my heart? If I’m someone who breaks out in hives around the topic of politics, it’s probably not a place for me to invest my time in world matters right now. 

But if you’re someone who loves kids deeply, maybe that is a place where you can start investing and considering whether that’s VBS, whether that’s foster care, adoption, all of those things. Hey, maybe I’m not called right now to bring in a child to my home, but maybe I can advocate in different ways. 

Maybe I can do respite care. Maybe I can pray for a particular person or babysit at times. And just looking for ways to invest in each other as a church body that are supportive and helpful and not taking up the cause yourself. Rather you’re holding up people’s arms who do feel invested. 

No, that makes sense. I really like that, Amber. Kathy, I’m going to come to you here pretty quickly here about the maturity and the self-awareness we need to have to carry out Amber’s prescription, which I think is really good. And I’m going to say why I don’t, and then I’ll let you analyze me. 

Okay. Sometimes I don’t, Amber, because I feel guilty. And so, I can slip into that apathy thing. I don’t necessarily do what I can do about a matter that I do care about because when I do step into that whether it be supporting a person who’s in the space or whether it’s being to be in advocacy, is somehow I feel guilty that I’m not doing more. 

And since I don’t like to feel guilty, I’m going to slide towards apathy. Kathy, all right, you’ve got a patient call. Here’s your chance. You’ve always wanted to do this. So, I’m going to use maybe a different word than the guilty word there, but would it be there is some sort of emotion that is prompting that reaction? 

So, like you said, guilt. I think for other people it can actually be more of an anxiety-related thing. So, can anxiety masquerade as feeling responsible to fill in the blank, right? Yeah. Like I need to care more about this or because I had the thought that I need to care about this, maybe I do need to care about this more. 

If every time you’re turning the corner, there’s another topic that your brain is trying to decide, “Should I actually care about this?” Or, again, I think it just goes to that energy drain. So, whether it’s that or the guilt feeling, And that’s really interesting. I’m wondering if this connects back to what Amber said about identity. 

Amber, I want you to pick up with identity again, because I might have another feeling, Kathy, on feeling challenged in one’s identity. It’s like, “Oh that’s a space yeah, that I don’t feel like I measure up in. So even though I care, I don’t measure up, and so I’m going to avoid it altogether and maybe not step into the spectrum appropriately.” 

And I don’t know. Does that fit, does that map on the identity comment that you made, Amber? Yeah, I think it can. Sometimes we are concerned with measuring up or the amount of commitment that could be there. I would certainly caution some people that do heavily invest in a particular cause to not let that cause become the only thing in their life. 

And sometimes it becomes the only thing that they ever talk about, and anyone who engages with them knows that’s what’s going to happen. And so, it can almost be like this self-fulfilling prophecy of no one’s caring, and I’m talking about these things and people are just disengaging from me. 

It’s because you might be driving them away with your strong tone or the inability to really help people get involved. And so, I guess this is maybe a point for those who find themselves closer to the advocacy tip instead of the apathy tip is to consider, you know what? It is great that the Lord has maybe called you to something. How are ways that I can help others understand the opportunities here and the prayer that is needed in some of these things? And maybe just help them see that it’d be great if we get more foster parents, or it’d be great if we get more missionaries or whatever the thing is, but maybe that’s not what they’re called to. 

I do think sometimes of Scripture like in Proverbs 21:2 it says, “Every man is right in his own eyes, but the Lord weighs the heart.” And I think there is just such a need for self-reflection in this topic of, hey, we can put the cause out there, social media can put the cause out there, but then at the end of the day, where are we finding our identity? And the Lord will help us discern where we should invest. I really appreciate that.  

So, you really filled out that conversation with identity. I understand how that impacts me when I’m towards the apathy side of things, and you really helped understand identity closer to the advocacy spectrum. And so, anyway, I think that was helpful to the conversation. Yeah, and even the other side of that too. So, if we want to say the word apathy here or be in a stuck position of that’s just not who I am, therefore I will not even consider it, right? That, I think, is the equal danger of it. 

So, from an identity perspective, we have to be willing to explore and consider, are there areas that I can pour into? Kathy, how should one determine– what are some of the questions we should be asking ourselves about what we should be investing in? I think this is worth considering. 

I think it goes to the capacity issue that Amber brings up and let me start with a story. There were a lot of really hot topics in 2020. Maybe you remember that. One big cultural topic after another, and I remember waxing eloquent about one of them, and then I realized in a moment that I was not understanding my young teenager that was across the table from me, and yet I was waxing eloquent about some societal, cultural thing. 

I think that’s a great example of missing where I was supposed to be, and I became an expert in something that was not really within my influence and actually missing my place. So, there are a thousand things to be advocates for. We all have to make these decisions. Kathy, what would be ways that we could think about capacity and which of these matters, right? 

Yeah. So, ultimately, it’s the Holy Spirit’s work, right? What doors God opens and what situations are in front of you that can lead towards an interest or a decision to add that into the circle of influence that you are desiring to have. 

I think the question actually is maybe what do you need to be careful of here? I go back to being a kid, and we would go to my grandparents’ house, and when we were there, it was a really bad deal if we showed up during the six o’clock news. I need to know what’s going on in the world right now, right? This news is really important to them because that was their window to find out what was going on. We have that 24/7 now. It doesn’t matter what the 6:00 news says because we all have access to every topic there is 24/7. So, when you’re deciding what you have capacity for and whatnot, I think we need to make sure that we’re not just trying to decide that on the things that are constantly in front of our faces. 

Are we feeling urgency after we’ve scrolled Instagram for an hour? Or are we feeling that after there’s been this thing blown up in the news about this political thing or this culture thing or whatever? Is God laying it on my heart or is some other algorithm laying it on my heart? Yes. I think is a really good point. 

Yeah. I think we find the things that we pour into in a healthy way, come about in a much quieter way. Like experience after experience, God has opened the door, and we have capacity because we want to, we’re equipped for it, all of that. Yeah, I really like that, and I think that’s helpful and really important to bring up. And I think it is so important to remember that this is ultimately between you and the Lord. And Instagram might be the thing that gets your attention, but it is something that you have to work out with the Lord what he is calling you to, where you can invest, and step back to actually seek that out. 

I think one of the things that is important to consider too is just like the, the, the who are we becoming as we step into causes, I think there are some opportunities that can take us closer to the heart of God. And I think that the Lord does speak strongly about some topics. I do think that there can be an opportunity for pride. There can be an opportunity for judgment if others don’t want to invest in the same ways that we do.  

And so, I think we have to be a little cautious of becoming like a Pharisee in some things if we’re not careful. And so, I would just encourage, too, as we’re reflecting and doing that self-examination of where should I invest, where should I not, also consider, hey, what are the things that the Lord has called me to all the time? 

He has called me to be a listener. He has called me to be a learner. He has called me to care for others, and so how can I keep those things at the forefront, and then the particular cause or thing that I get behind follows second. But how can I do those things primary? That’s great. And for those people-pleasing people out there like myself, we can champion causes or jump on things to please people, but really, you’re calling us back to ultimately this is about pleasing God. 

And allowing that to guide us I think is excellent. Isn’t there something to be said there, too, if this is maybe back to a different conversation we had, but, like, when we do feel called, maybe like Amber said, like when we are more to the advocacy part of that, I think that’s okay. There’s nothing wrong with being in that place. It’s okay if the people around you are not there either. I just think it’s so easy to place a judgment on which is this whole topic in reverse, not like I need to care, they need to care. We can project that out on others, and people can feel that. 

People know that is happening. Let’s just, let’s go from that perspective, because I really appreciate that, and let’s now paint the other side. What would it look like to do advocacy really well, as God probably wants us to do? So, I think you’re absolutely right, Kathy. Some of the giants of history have been advocates. 

Yes. We could start by listing names of people who cared a lot. William Wilberforce cared a lot about slavery And I’m so glad that he did. This is very well played, Matt, that you picked two social workers to join you on your call today to talk about advocacy. Ignorance is bliss. Yes. Wow, no kidding. I did. Yes. Great choice, Matt. Yes. So, how do we want to honor that side of the spectrum? How do they do it well? What is the perspective that maybe a William Wilberforce had or choose those mighty men and women of history? So, to me it becomes an issue of faithfulness more than about the results. 

And I think you have to stay in that spot which is so easy to say right now, but so hard in the emotional moments to remember that if you are called to step into a space, you have to remember that it is because it is another step toward faithfulness, and that you have to be faithful to what God has called you to. 

It is not about changing the world, ultimately. It’s not about seeing the fruit, because you might not see any fruit. And I think that is what can be a very discouraging spot as an advocate, trying to balance that. People who step into that space tend to be pretty passionate people. The Lord has made them and so it’s a great way to use their gifts. 

But at the same time, you’ve got to keep the main thing the main thing. You look at Jeremiah, right? He had nothing to show for it. Or even in Noah for that matter, who had no converts. We have examples of men and women who are faithful in spite of the metrics we use. 

One of the qualities has to be a posture of, “I am actually not an expert.” Like a posture of being willing to hear the other side. I think any prominent, well-known person has to have that character trait or had that character trait which got them to the place that they are. Here is what I know. Here is what I am passionate about but tell me your side of it.  

Maybe that example you gave Matt, maybe that’s what you failed in there, is not being willing to hear what the teen had to say and hear their perspective. Yeah. I also think it gets a little bit tricky, and I felt this when I was in college and I was being asked to advocate for a cause or whatever it was a little bit off-putting to me that there were causes that I was trying to advocate for that I actually didn’t have any experience in. 

At that point, I didn’t walk along with people that had experiences. I didn’t have personal experiences. So, I think when we have not done the work of learning about what the cause is actually affecting or the reason that it’s there or the people that are affected, whether this plays out or doesn’t play out. Yeah, I think that’s just tricky. 

We have to be able to actually know the population or the situation well, and you only do that through listening and being willing to hear stories. And to that point, Kathy, I think that also helps us actually correctly diagnose the problem. Yeah. I think so often you can jump into a cause and get very gung-ho, and all of a sudden, it’s like the more you learn, the more you realize “Oh, actually I’ve been maybe campaigning for the wrong thing here.” 

Yes. Like maybe that’s actually not what’s going to bring about real change. Yeah. And so, yeah, if you only follow media and you don’t do other research or don’t do some personal exposure to some of these things, it can be really tricky. Yeah. One example I would say, and I’m not giving a political opinion here by any means, but I think it was very easy. So, an experience that shaped me is it was very easy to have an opinion on government programs for people, why they should happen or why they should not happen. 

And then I spent a number of years working at a place where every person I interacted with depended on those for different reasons. And then you get to see the full picture. You get to see why it doesn’t always work, and you get to see why it is really necessary, too. And then you can find a balanced view. 

There almost has to be a sense of like reconciliation, like you are striving for, and I mean that in the big sense of the word. That you’re trying to reconcile relationships, reconcile wrong that’s been committed or injustice that’s been committed. And so again, like how do you advocate in healthy ways when I think a lot of us have seen the media paint advocacy or politics or whatever that may be, it’s painted a bad picture in our mind of what that is. 

And so again, how can we redeem that? If you are advocating, you can do it in a respectful way. You can do it in a way that brings about reconciliation. You can do it in a way that’s actually hitting the real root causes and not just muddying more and more of the picture and playing on people’s emotions. 

And what I hear you say there, Amber, is almost a detachment of the personal nature of it. This is about me. Yeah, it’s not about me. This is about something larger than me. Yeah. And remember that you’re a piece of this, and you’re not the savior. If we go back to the original thought that we’re just in such a topic-heavy world right now, I just wonder if it’s because of what we’re being modeled. 

We’re living in a time where influencers are the people who make the most money. That’s probably not the truth. But we live in a world of influencers who are passionate about a topic, and I don’t mean this in a judgmental way at all but are passionate about a topic because it’s how they make their income. 

And when we see that they’re an advocate for whatever topic they’re talking about, their paychecks also depend on it, or their followers depend on it. I think that’s really insightful, Kathy. And there’s more to it just than economics, right? Yeah. We have a currency today that is built on fame. Yeah. Like probably no other. I mean, choose a world figure 200 years ago, and they were big in their place but not world known. How could you be, right? I think that’s interesting. I think it’s important for us to think about what influencers and influences play on. 

Most of us are not going to go on and be that type of influencer. Maybe we are, but I’m not going to be. So, there is likely not one topic that I can allow to take all my attention or be known for or that sort of thing. Wow, that’s a fun space to think about. Models are important. Models impact on us, and I think what you’re really suggesting here, Kathy, is we have a model of advocacy today which has taken on a life of its own. Yes. And for us to think that doesn’t affect us is probably naive.  

So yes, as we think through some of these things, whether it’s finding ourselves gravitating toward apathy or advocacy I think it is just really important to remember the balance in those things and that there are a whole lot of areas where we can invest time, we can invest prayer, we can learn a lot of new things. 

But at the end of the day, we really have to go back to some self-reflection and where the Lord has called us and are we faithful in what he has revealed to us. Again, just not losing ourselves in these topics, not letting it overwhelm us and overwhelm our identity, that this becomes the only thing on the forefront of our minds. 

But how are we still seeing others who aren’t engaged in this cause? How are we still engaging with others in our community around us? How are we caring for one another in these spaces? I really like that. I appreciate both of you ladies speaking into this topic. I think a huge takeaway for me is to be thoughtful about my capacity, and then to resist the urge towards apathy for bad reasons. 

And instead acknowledge that care is important and that I do, assuming it’s biblical, and then stepping into whatever that looks like at the capacity that I could be matched, which could be supporting others, could be towards advocacy, could be prayer. It could be blessing the work of other people. 

Anyway, that’s where my thoughts are at. Yeah, well said, Matt. Thank you. I really appreciate it a lot ladies. And to everybody who’s listening we trust and pray that this is helpful and God-glorifying. God bless you, each one. Goodbye.