Perfectionism Podcast Episodes

And when that becomes an all or nothing thing, it’s like I’m good when I’m worth it, when I hit it, and I’m not worth it when I don’t hit it. And that outcome instead of a motivator, it becomes the statement of my worth. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

Delighted to have you along Ted Witzig. Jr. is with me here today. Ted, I think a phrase that everybody’s familiar with and probably uses is, I’m just a perfectionist, or, sure, perfectionism. And I want to needle in on that topic here today just to understand what it is and what it isn’t. 

Because there again, is a term that’s broadly used, but actually has a very, very well-defined clinical use. Yes. And so that’s where we want to go today, is this concept of perfectionism. Yes, it’s a good one, Matt, because perfectionism is a style of thinking, a style of relating and handling emotions that affects a lot of people. 

It’s seen a lot of times in some of the disorders we work with when somebody comes in for counseling, for depression or OCD, but it’s experienced much more broadly than that. You don’t have to have a diagnosable disorder to be dealing with perfectionism. And then like many things you can have this mildly, moderately, or very severely. 

And an interesting feature is it can really show up in some areas of your life in less than others. And so, it’s one of the things that feels like a moving target. Hopefully today we will give you some ideas of what it is and isn’t so that it is clearer. This is in a category of its own, perfectionism. 

So, it’s like a direction that everybody wants to be going towards. Yes. But yet, the harder we run towards that good and right direction, the unhealthier we become. That’s really tricky. That’s different than the trajectory of depression and anxiety. Yes. It is an interesting one because there are benefits and payoffs to highly accurate work, being known to have good high expectations and being able to hit a mark. I mean, just think about it if I want my accountant to be a perfectionist, your accountant, your neurosurgeon, your heart surgeon. Yeah, and I think that’s one of the things that happens. 

Even take an Olympic athlete. I mean, there are so many different things in which perfection is acclaimed. So, what we’re talking about here is a concept that is hard to just put in one bucket because what one person means when they say it is sometimes different than another person. I’ll tell you another thing. 

Probably one of the biggest misconceptions that I hear from people is that perfectionism equals orderliness or cleanliness. And so, we’ll talk to somebody and say, oh, I think what you’re dealing with here is some perfectionism. So, they’ll say, no, I can’t be. Have you ever seen my desk? 

And I think one of the things that happens is just that misunderstanding that it’s going to show up the same for everybody. And again, maybe perfectionism shows up in terms of orderliness for some people, but not for all. So can we say to that example that some of us are dealing with perfectionism and don’t know it. 

That is correct. Some people have a definition of perfectionism that doesn’t encapsulate what they’re dealing with, and because of it, they haven’t really labeled it correctly. So, maybe we should just start off by talking about the types. I think so. I think we want to talk about the types of perfectionism to the intent that a person understands this is what perfectionism is and perhaps I may or may not be dealing with it. 

Yeah, because we talked about in a previous podcast on labeling. The importance of labels, right? Yeah. If you don’t have the proper label, then sometimes you don’t have the proper remedy. That’s correct. And so that’s a little bit about where this fits as well. So, let’s elevate the term, help us understand what that is. 

Alright, so when I talk about perfectionism, I’m going to talk about three different types of perfectionism to try to tease apart some of the things that people are dealing with. So first is called self-oriented perfectionism. And this is when somebody has really high exacting standards for themselves. 

Okay. Oftentimes it has all or nothing thinking as a part of it. Kind of pass-fail. I either did it a hundred percent and if it was ninety-nine percent or below, I failed. So, it’s harsh self-criticism and this shows up in things everywhere in people wanting to do really well. It can be students, it can be mothers, it can be kids. 

There are no gender differences or things like that regarding this. But it’s important to note that self-worn perfectionism comes from inside the person. Okay? So other people may be saying, hey, take it easy. Or let’s say this person gets a ninety-five on a test. Okay. But for them, ninety-five still meant they didn’t do as well as they ought to have. 

Okay. Or things of that nature. Now that doesn’t always compute. Sometimes people are like, if they’ve gotten an A, that’s good enough. But I think what happens is that this particular thing is oftentimes very self-reinforcing. Because what happens is when I meet my standards, I feel good for that moment. 

But then the clock resets. It’s a treadmill. Okay, so if I had 10 things on my list today and I got nine of them done. I didn’t make it so I’ve got to work harder. If I got all 10 done, how good do I feel? I felt good at that moment. Now tomorrow starts again. It’s kind of this treadmill thing. So, it is very associated with higher self-criticism. 

They have a really hard time giving themselves self-compassion and giving themselves grace. The other thing that happens there is when they can’t meet their standards, they’re more likely to be discouraged. And sometimes that’s where we see people actually end up getting into depression because depression will fuel their expectations and then they don’t meet their expectations and they get more discouraged. 

Does this type of perfectionism expect perfection out of other people? Is there a difference there? So, here’s the interesting thing about self-oriented perfectionists. Sometimes they have the capacity to have much more grace with others than they do themselves. So, it’s almost like they’re able to see truth more clearly in the other people. 

Yeah. It’s very interesting. And this plays out oftentimes in how they feel about their spiritual walk too, because they would tell somebody else that God loves them, they can be forgiven, they’re loved and appreciated by God. Those different kinds of things they would say to encourage you but beat themselves up for the same thing. 

Yeah. So, part of the problem, we’ll talk about this a little bit later. When we talk about what we do about it is understanding that when we rate everything in an all or nothing sense, we accidentally take things that are really on a continuum. Things that are good enough. Most things in life, I’m not talking about moral issues. 

By the way, moral issues are things that are right or wrong, you should do or not do. But when it comes to dinner on Tuesday night. Okay. There isn’t such a thing as the perfect dinner, but many, many families, many moms struggle with whether they’re doing good enough. Okay. Now you’re touching on a sacred cow. 

Okay. So, I want you to address this, okay? A phrase that we’ve all been told.  And I tell my kids too. Do your best. Sure. And kind of like that is the mark. Yeah. You do your best. Everything you do, you do your best. I’m wondering, even based on what you’ve said, Ted, how realistic is for us to do our best all the time? That meal on Tuesday night. That person could be evaluating themselves. Did I do my best? That’s right. Well, I could have pulled out all the stops. Yes. Because I know how to do that. I could have done, but I didn’t. Yes, I’d love you to comment on do your best.  

Oh, first of all, I think it’s an okay thing to say. I don’t want to get too technical about that, but I do think that there’s a thing behind that that we have to understand. The phrase that I said to my daughters over and over, they’ll remember this all their lives because as they’re growing up, one of the things I would say when they were going to school, I’d say, do your best and leave the rest. 

Okay. The concept is they need to try, they need to do what they can, but then they need to move on. The reality is that when we look at doing our best in terms of is there more that I could do, and that’s why this is such a catchy topic or difficult topic for Christians. It’s kind of like, is it too much to ask to do this for the Lord? 

Okay. Well, yeah, we want to give our all, we talk about that. And this is so important to understand our trajectory, where we’re aiming is Christlikeness. Okay? Now that’s a perfect standard. So, if you measure yourself from the perfect standard to where you are, you can always look at that and say, I’m not where I ought to be. Okay. Now if you look at that in a perfectionistic mindset. You always have a reason to feel failure. Sure. Now flip it around and measure yourself from where you were and where he has brought you and where you are going. You see yourself in part of a process of growth. 

And that process of growth isn’t done. But also, the Lord joys over us where we are. This is essential because one of the things that happens is where I am in my spiritual walk, when I think of where I was the day I gave my testimony before the church, what I understood. Oh, I understood so little. 

But the Lord loved me. And he accepted me. And then I look at where I’m at today, and I’m so much further along than I was then. But you know what? 20 years from now, I’m going to look back on this time in my life and say, oh, what I thought I understood then. But here’s the point. The point is that God loves us where we are, and he is also working with us in this process of growth. 

We are living and just like every organism, it is a living process of growth, stagnation, or going backwards. You know, that isn’t where we want to be, but to measure myself and say, because I’m not exactly like Christ today, then I’m a failure and I should just not try is incorrect.  

I had a little bit of an aha through all of that. And so, I want to check this aha against what you think. Does a perfectionistic person tend to focus on minutiae and evaluate their lives on a thousand categories? On whether I did or didn’t do that to standard or my best. The example that you gave there was a person lifting their head to see the long trajectory of where they’ve come from, where they’ve going to provide evaluation on that larger picture than on a hundred different categories. Yeah. So one of the things that we ask when we’re looking at perfectionism is what are you rating yourself against? And so, what happens is that can be rated against a thousand things, or for some people it’s rated against one outcome. 

Like did I hit this body mass index or this weight. So, what happens is this outcome, which is also oftentimes very elusive, okay, or I need to get this particular grade or whatever. If people are setting that outside of what they’re able to do or beyond what they’re able to do. Okay. Or that pushes them to a place where they’re unhealthy in other aspects of their life, then that becomes an all-or-nothing. 

Okay. And when that becomes an all-or-nothing, it’s like, I’m good when I’m worth it, when I hit it, and I’m not worth it when I don’t hit it. That outcome becomes instead of a motivator, it becomes the statement of my worth. That I am worth it if I’ve hit that. So, I think really when you say do your best, what you want to say to your son or daughter or what I want to say is we’re just saying, hey, try hard, do what you can, get in there and use your skills, those kinds of things. But what can be communicated by any of us, and I’m not just saying you, Matt, by any of us, is we want to disconnect that from the outcome of whether this math grade is a perfect one. That’s actually what we’re not asking for. 

We actually just want them to try. Yeah, and here’s the thing, you and I would both say. We would be pleased with our spouse, our kids, our church members, if they try, okay. If they lean into it, whatever that outcome is, we’re just pleased. Yes. Okay. It’s not actually that they had to get a perfect outcome, but if they did their best, if they put their effort into it, and so one of the things we want to do is we want to really reward the right things. Because I remember somebody here in this example, there once was a child, I think he was a high school kid, he was getting all F’s. His dad said, you know what? Hey, if you get all A’s, I’ll buy you a car. Okay, well, how likely is that? That you think a student who is doing poorly and is very behind, seriously behind, is going to go, Yeah, from all F’s to all A’s. So, what started to happen is the first two weeks he tried like crazy. But when he saw that it was out of reach, what was his motivation to try? Yeah. Gone. Zero, zero. Because there was no concept of growth in this. None. It was all or nothing. And that kind of a thing ends up from an emotional perfectionist perspective really hurting us. 

So, we’ve talked about personal oriented perfectionism. You mentioned there’s another. Yes. Another one is called other oriented perfectionism. And it’s exactly what it says it is. When I have very high perfectionistic expectations for somebody else. And so, this is an interpersonal form of perfectionism. 

It is. When we have exacting standards and those kinds of things. Here’s the interesting part that other oriented perfectionists see themselves as being helpful. Giving suggestions, holding up quality, those kinds of things. They are perceived, however, as being critical, demanding and controlling. Okay, I’ve got to ask this question. 

Who sends this person to your office? Do they send themselves, that’s like I am an other perfectionist. I mean, do they see that in themselves or is it their family and co-workers that are sending them to you? So, here’s the interesting part. It is rare for individuals with other oriented perfectionism to say, wow, you know what? I’m the one with a critical spirit. They may after getting much feedback or maybe conflict or whatever, the pushback may lead them to get some help in this area. But unfortunately, many people just would look at somebody that’s a strong other imperfectionist and just say, that person’s a pain. That person’s a grouch. That person’s unpleasable. And that may be true of some people. I think the other part is I find oftentimes they have a belief system that they’re upholding something very deep. Or they’re the guardian of something.  

Now I think that statement deserves a little bit of dwelling on because I think that was pretty powerful. Yeah. And my brain is a little bit behind it. Yeah. So, it’s usually in areas where the standard can’t be dropped in their view and their fear is that the standard will be dropped. Okay. So, there’s a fear element. Yeah. Which I think is key. 

They oftentimes will have just a sense of this is just the right way. Whether this person is a carpenter or an accountant or a teacher or whatever, they will feel in them the sensation of this is just the right way to do it. Okay. And they will oftentimes feel that the standard has been dropped. 

And then when this comes out in a Christian context, it will feel like we’re just immediately dishonoring. Okay. So, I think what happens is because these individuals are sometimes seen by others as mean, sometimes just exacting or controlling, whatever, and people step back from them. Keep a wide berth from them. They’re also oftentimes known, if they are craftsmen, for their output. You know, because, oh wow, you want so-and-so. If you want that built, I’d have so-and-so do that. I have to tell you that the surgeon who did my heart surgery was known like that. 

Hmm. And it was one of those things that it was kind of like, I think that’s a great example. Yeah. Oh, it is. That makes for an awesome surgeon. Yeah. And you probably, if you were to have heard that prior to selecting your surgeon, that would’ve been okay. Yeah. This is the type of guy I want running the operating room. 

It’s very interesting, isn’t it? He didn’t have a warm demeanor as another patient told me. He says, you’re not choosing him as a friend to go out to coffee with. Yeah. Okay. But I think one of the things is with self-oriented perfectionism, the standard is internal to the person, and it is their standards that they’re measuring themselves against. The other oriented perfectionism has a standard and they are measuring other people’s behavior by the standard they hold in themselves. Now, does that mean we’re supposed to not have any standard? I want you to understand we have to watch out for this thing that says to have standards is bad or that we should just drop all standards. 

That’s not what I’m saying. I think one of the questions we must be careful about saying that getting things perfect, whether that’s artwork or whether that’s painting, or whether that’s whatever. We have to measure the human cost of perfection. Yes. Because if I set a standard that is so exacting that nobody can hit it, I might get it wrong by trying to get it right. 

Yeah. Now can I make an observation? Sure. In my limited experience with individuals that may be this type of perfectionist. I have found that these individuals are really good at what they’re asking people to do. And so, it’s almost a curse of their own brilliance. 

It is. And Matt, I think that’s an important part here. Oftentimes they have lived by this particular code, and it has brought some kind of blessing or help. So, what ends up happening is they want other people to reproduce that, but they can’t reproduce themselves. The other thing is that while it’s possible that some people may be perfectionistic in every area of their life, I think what you would find is with other oriented perfectionists, you will find that there are some areas that they’re just like this is just the way it has to be and, and again, where does this kind of thing come out? It’ll come out around how we have to do this meal at Christmas time or how we operate this thing in the church. This is how we do it. And again, there may be blessing in that to some degree, but there can also be a human cost. 

So, if you think about it, just to summarize the negative impact of self-oriented perfectionism is that self-criticism causes discouragement. The negative outcome of other-oriented perfectionism is that other people feel controlled, demeaned, and told they’re not good enough.  

Thank you, friends, for being with us for this episode of Perfectionism. I’m going to interrupt my conversation with Ted at this time, but promise you that we’ll be back and we’re going to address the third and final type of perfectionism as well as good steps forward in remedy for the perfectionism we may struggle with. Thanks each one for being on. 

Then, you know what we forget, Matt, is that Jesus came to be our perfection and we’re not trying to lower the standard. We can’t. In fact, when it comes to the value of the soul, that was set, that was set by God, the standard also for entry into heaven was perfection. Perfection that we can’t meet. Greetings everyone. 

This is Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I’m glad to bring to you the second portion of a conversation I had with Ted Witzig Jr. on perfectionism. In the last episode, we talked about two types of perfectionism, self-oriented perfectionism, and other-oriented perfectionism. 

And today we’ll address the third as well as good, healthy ways forward with the perfectionism we may be dealing with. Thanks each one for being here. This third one is called socially prescribed perfectionism. Now I know that’s a funny name, socially prescribed. It is when I start to try to get into somebody else’s head and I think they think I should act this way. 

It’s called, I think they think. This is a social kind of perfectionism where I am reacting to my perceived beliefs about what others expect of me. Now here’s the thing. We all have perceived beliefs about whether it’s expected of us and it’s not wrong to, but here’s what happens. 

It can make us very socially anxious, feel insecure. And it can make us then get into a lot of people-pleasing and a lot of, oh no, what if they think this of me or that of me? It’s important to understand that these perceived expectations can be actual, or they might be perceived. I just don’t feel like I’m doing a good enough job. 

You know my boss says this or that, I think he’s upset with me. I think he’s going to think this or that. Give us an example of, yeah. You know, Sally has got this. And this is how Sally thinks and what she does. How about this? So, Sally goes to a church and she goes to visit another one of our churches, and she’s unfamiliar with that church and she’s never been there before. 

Okay, and its church culture is different than her church culture to some degree, one direction or the other. When she walks in the door, she immediately wonders if she’s accepted, and she immediately wonders because she notices that she’s different one way or the other. You could do this either direction here, and as she walks in, she realizes she’s different. 

And then as she does, she starts to wonder. And just starts to play out. Am I accepted? Am I accepted? And then, oh, that lady looked at me. I think she thinks that I shouldn’t be here. I think she thinks that I’m rigid, or I think she thinks that I am not good enough. And so, what starts to happen? 

How easy is it to strike up a conversation when that’s going on in your head? Pretty hard. So, then you start to hang back and as you’re hanging back and anxious in the social situation, you don’t let your natural personality come out. It’s hard to have that conversation. It’s hard to get to know people. 

And so, what ends up happening is, can you imagine this? This happens all the time. It happens every Sunday in every church where two people have a picture in their head of what they think the other person wants from them. And you know what? They end up, instead of having a conversation from my heart to your heart and from your heart to my heart, we end up having a conversation. 

What I think you want of me, and you have a conversation, what you think I want of you. And you know what? That’s not an authentic community. That’s interesting. And I think it’s important for us to explode this example to every area of our life. This is happening at the family gathering. Oh yes, this is happening at the workstation. 

Yes, this is happening. All of these places where we are now behaving according to some narratives in our head that we’re fabricating, but it goes back to that. They think so I think. Flip it around. It’s, I think, I think they think, and so it’s like in my mind, I am picturing I would be unacceptable to them in this. 

Interesting. Okay, so here’s one of the things that happens with socially prescribed perfectionists. The noise actually in their head, the replay of conversations that they have. They can be in their own house, sitting in their own living room. And then they can have the thought that somebody not there that doesn’t even know that they’re doing whatever they’re doing, would not like this or wouldn’t agree with X or wouldn’t do Y. 

And they inadvertently invite that person into the room in their head and it can destroy the moment. But one of the things that really, really stands out with socially prescribed perfectionism is mind reading. I’m in somebody else’s head. I am not saying that we shouldn’t be aware of the social norms that are around us or things of that nature, but there isn’t anything good about socially prescribed perfectionism. 

It makes people anxious. It makes people self-conscious and in fact, they don’t learn to be better social participants. They learn this is a scary place and I want to get out of here. How do we move forward with this? Whether it’s self-oriented. Other-oriented. Or this relational-social. 

What are healthy steps forward? I’m going to give one key skill for each. Okay. So first with the self-oriented perfectionist, they have this all-or-nothing mindset that really says, I’ve either got to hit it out of the park or I’ve not done it well enough. And I really would encourage them to develop a place in their life, a way to think about what is good enough. And I know there’s been many a thought about how good enough isn’t good enough and those kinds of things. But you know what, back to that dinner on Tuesday night, the question isn’t, did you make the perfect dinner for your family on Tuesday night? The question is, was your family nourished? And if they were nourished, it was good enough because that’s the outcome goal.  

The outcome goal isn’t to have been perfect. I come from an educational background. We write rubrics. A rubric is a standard by which you judge an artifact that students produce. And usually, you’ve got a number of categories and one through five or whatnot. And really what you’re saying to that self-oriented perfectionist is they need to take a hard look at the rubric they’re using. That’s correct. And there are probably categories on there or standards that you can receive an A on this meal, but not with your rubric. 

You need a new rubric because an A isn’t met by the way you’re thinking about it. Exactly. I’ll tell you another one. What is a good devotion if her perfectionism says that a good devotion is exactly this many minutes with this much devotion, this much fervor, this much prayer, this much understanding. What starts to happen is you accidentally miss the fact that the devotion is about being with God. And him being with you and you aware of that?  

So, the other oriented perfectionist. It is really important here because they oftentimes feel like an order for something to be done. Things have to always hit a certain high mark, and so they can feel like any deviation from that is a failure. 

And one of the things that happens there is that we end up, instead of becoming good mentors, becoming good teachers, we end up being so threatening that the values we wish we could pass on, we actually turn people away from. We’re talking about remedies here. We’re talking about the next best step.  

To that person, that other oriented perfectionist person, they are being driven by ideals. And you’re asking them to change the ideal. A little bit. I’m asking them to shift from seeing and rating everything as does this match the ideal, to thinking about growth. How do I help people grow? 

Expecting everybody to be you. It ends up disappointing everybody. And so, what we want to do moves away from the goals, it actually moves away from the goals that you really hold dear. That’s exactly right. So, it’s come alongside, let me show you here, let me teach you, let me hand it off to you. 

And by doing so, to see themselves as empowering and influencing without setting this all-or-nothing bar. And I want to come back to another important word that you mentioned. And that is fear. There is some dealing with your own fear, isn’t there? No question. Do you know? I think one of the things that causes many people difficulty in transition, especially when they’ve come to the end of a time when they’re transitioning out of a role, it makes it very hard for them to let go. Because they believe they have to hold on to the very end of something. And I understand that to a certain degree, but I would also say that by not stepping away and letting the next generation take on and move up in, they don’t allow the Spirit to work in that person. 

They also end up being, instead of a voice of encouragement to the next generation, they end up being the voice of fear to the next generation. I took over the eldership from my dad. And he’s been a great mentor to me. And one of the things that he has done for me that has just been such a blessing to me in this transition into this role, because I’m still a newbie when it comes to that. I’m still a new elder. I’m still learning. But I would go sit with him and he would say. This is what Brother Joe Braker did. That was the elder before my dad. And he said, this is how he thought about it, and this is how I thought about it, you know, and this is how things work. And he says, now here’s some things that you might want to consider. 

This is why I did what I did. And then he would say this, so when you decide how you want to do it, these are some things to just consider. So, he would give me a position. He would go, this is where it was. This is how I saw it. This is where we are now when you take it. These are some things you might want to consider. 

What it did was it made him a safe person to be able to get counsel from. It helped me to see the past. It helped me to see how things have developed. It helped me to understand the key pieces to hold onto, but it also gave me the freedom to be me instead of the others. Ted, looking at an example like your father has shown in that example of person who is not struggling with other perfectionism. It actually speaks volumes into the target. And I think another thing that example speaks to is there was a lot of trust. He has a lot of trust ultimately in God, in his Spirit. And in you in a sense as well. 

But I think that’s an important thing to capture. It is. And I think what it did was make dialogue possible. And so, if he had a concern with something, I have no doubt that he loves me enough to talk to me about it. But I also have no doubt that his love isn’t going to be contingent on it. You see what happens where perfectionism kind of gets in and out. Either do it this way or else. And that’s not helpful.  

The last one there, we talked about socially prescribed perfectionism and what to do there. The first and foremost key is to really practice getting out of other people’s heads. We have to slow down and pull back from the mind reading. That’s really hard because many times people that are very susceptible to this are people pleasers by nature or they want so much to do well and be liked or want other people to be pleased, that they’re very attuned to what’s going on. Do other people like this or not? So, I’m just trying to think about what they might say to you, Ted. So let me say it this way. Suppose a person is saying to you, Ted, but I’m usually right. And I’ve been proven right before.  

That’s a great point, Matt. I’ll oftentimes use this example. Imagine you’re in the grocery store line. And your order is taking extra long. There’s an extra price check and there’s all these different things. And then you start feeling hot because as you look back in this line and the guy three people back looks angry and he looks like he’s cussing at you in his head. So, here’s what I would say to them. He might be. He absolutely might be. But let me ask you, is it helping you to have a panic attack over the fact that he might be? And the answer is no. 

The answer is everybody has to wait in line sometimes. And actually, what we’re going to do is to get out of your head, manage the situation as well as possible, and then go on. And we do that by remembering that our self-worth is not determined externally. And for all these kinds of perfectionism, oftentimes they’re using a measure that’s either their performance, other people’s performance, or other people’s perceptions. 

And what we’re really trying to move that onto is, I am who I am, by the grace of God, my worth has been determined by the love of Jesus. And yes, I need to do my best. I need to try to do well, I need to do those kinds of things. But at the end of the day. The grade that I get on my calculus test is not the grade that Jesus gives me at the pearly gates. 

Whether I give a sermon and the Morton church says, wow, that was the most boring sermon Ted Witzig has ever preached. Or that was so meaningful. The question isn’t, did I please everybody? The question is am I pursuing faithfulness to God. And you know what? Sometimes I do better and worse at that, but that’s where we’re in this process of growth as a church family. We come alongside each other and pick each other up, and we keep on moving down the road and take even that example going back to that rubric or what we think. Pleasing everybody isn’t possible. So there again, when we replace, oh, I’m not going to please everybody. 

Whether it’s a sermon or a meal, right? Yes. Then all of a sudden, well. What is it that I’m trying to do here? That’s right. I think that’s helpful. It’s very important because it’s easier for us as human beings to use things that are measurable as measures of our worth.  

And I’ll tell you what I see a lot of moms do. And if I ever write a book on depression, I will have a chapter called Don’t Set your Self Worth by Your Laundry. Or by your dishes. Because those things come and go and they come and go and are they ever done, Matt? Never. Are they ever done? So, if your self-worth and your sense of I’m a good mother, I’m a good housewife, I’m a good this, or if I’ve done a hundred percent of the laundry, yes, that would never happen. 

And it means that every six months for about six minutes, you could feel good about yourself. And the same thing’s true if you’re a farmer and you’re measuring the outcome by your yield by this or that. Everybody can find something to measure by. And in fact, it’s not wrong to use measurements, but we have to be careful because when that goes into the core value of our worth, then you know what we forget, Matt? That Jesus came to be our perfection. And we’re not trying to lower the standard. We can’t. In fact, when it comes to the value of the soul, that was set by God. The standard also for entering into heaven was perfection. Perfection. We can’t meet it and Ted; we would be lowering the standard by choosing our own. Exactly.  

Actually, it’s one of the most beautiful things about this. It’s why I love to work for perfectionism because there’s a wonderful answer because ultimately so much of this, yes, there’s emotional parts, there’s thinking parts, there’s social parts, but so much of this comes to finding the groundedness in living into what God has done for us through Jesus, and then seeing our walk of growth, our sanctification is really a process by which we move into the fullness of the stature of Christ. And I think Ted, maybe we will end with that. The hope that perfectionism brings to us if that is what we struggle with. 

Sure. The hope that it brings us is an indicator that says there is perfection to apprehend. And it’s been given to us. And then the delight of shedding our own.  And taking on his is quite welcome. It is. Thanks a lot, Ted. You’re welcome, Matt. Thanks each one for being with us. Maybe some of these examples resonated with you and so helpful to sense what perfectionism is and what good healthy steps forward are as well. 

Thanks each one for being with us. Have a great day.