Discipleship Podcast Episode

Even as the Father sent me, now I send you, and it’s a critical piece to realize that transference that has taken place. We are called to disciple and encourage others and walk with them in this life. 

Welcome to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I’m Matt Kauffman. I’m glad to be along with you. And here in the studio is Arlan Miller. And Arlan, we’re going to talk about discipleship. Sounds great, Matt. It’s great to be here again. I know that’s your passion, something that you’ve talked about a lot and have engaged in in many ways. 

But take us back to Christ, who I think our minds naturally go to when we think of rabbi, master, disciple. What do we learn from him in this space? Christ was all about relationships. If you had the task, Matt, of saving the entire world in three years, how would you do it? Yeah, where would you start? 

I doubt that you would say let’s start with 12 guys. I’m going to pick out 12 guys. I’m going to live with them and interact with them and just make them see me in my day in and day out, and then I’m going to let some of these twelve guys choose others too. 

Isn’t that fascinating? Right. Hey, can my brother come along? You know, it’s like seriously. Let me choose these guys. This is it. I’m trying to save the world. Right. Isn’t that fascinating? It is fascinating. It’s almost as if to say, I’ll take any twelve. I’ll take this guy, this guy, this guy, and this guy. 

And it becomes much more about the process than the person, which is a critical point. And I think a very real point is we can make it too much about the person. It’s not about who, it’s about who is speaking into it and what is being spoken into that person’s life. So, he had these twelve that Christ spends his time with. 

It can seem unusual, but then if you realize the culture of the time, it was a very common practice. If you were interested at all in any type of spiritual matter, you were following a teacher of some type. You were following a rabbi. That’s what the classroom of that era looked like. Exactly. And you strove to get in with the best rabbis. 

And you would live and breathe and be right amongst them, your life, and then you would learn from them, and then take off and do it yourself. And your goals were really to be like that master if I understand it, right? Yeah, to learn his words, his vocabulary, his sayings, and his practice. How does he live his life? 

All of that would be something that you completely give yourself over to. How does he interpret the world? Yeah, and therefore how do I interpret the world? Yeah, there’s an author and a phrase that I came across when studying this and they use the phrase, in the dust of the rabbi. Which literally meant that you were to be walking so close to your teacher that the dust from their sandals would get upon you. 

Yeah. And that was a level of your dedication and devotion. And that’s exactly what we see in the Gospels. Exactly. These men are following him, up late with him, up early with him, in the boat with him, on the way with him, in the inner circle with him, right? Very much there, close to Christ. And you know, Matt, how do you learn best? 

You have just tempted the teacher with that question. Yeah, it’s great. Because I think about that a lot in how I learn and what are some of the prerequisites for learning. And I’ll give you a couple. One, I think a learner needs to notice things. Two, a learner needs to wonder about things. And three, a learner needs to think as well. And that’s very much what you see with this core group. They were interacting with Christ. They were noticing, hey, this just happened. I wonder why this happened. I think this. And then Christ molded that thinking so much. But I will also assert that as a teacher myself, I find I have to coach a lot of students to think that way. 

Yeah. And I don’t know, I guess I don’t have a broad enough view to say this is cultural, this is 21st century thinking, but I just noticed from experience that students today don’t naturally think that way. They think very much top down. You tell me what I need to know, and you tell me what you’re saying? 

What are the answers to the test? What’s the minimal amount I need to have to get by? I mean, that sounds harsh, but yeah, we can fall into that trap. But if that’s our classroom of today, that was very different than the classroom that Jesus led. 

It was so much more about lifestyle. It was so much more about journeying through life together. A relationship. It really was. And you know, frankly, when I reflect upon that question, Matt, I realize that some of the most important lessons I have learned in my life have not necessarily been from reading it or hearing it. 

Those aren’t bad, but when I see it demonstrated or lived out or experienced through someone else or with someone else, that’s very powerful. And they stick in my mind. And this is great for me, a teacher, too. Because, you know, as the saying goes, to a builder, every answer is a building. Yeah. And to a teacher, every answer is a lesson. Right. And sometimes I think, well, if I can just say it in the right words. Or if I can get it across in the right podcast, or if I can write it and give it in the right book, or in the right presentation, or in the right lecture, that will solve everything. 

But this concept of discipleship goes much deeper than that, doesn’t it? And do you see how freeing that is, Matt? We don’t have to be experts and have all of the answers and have written textbooks and so on and so forth to offer help. I think sometimes God calls me to discipleship relationships simply to live and breathe and interact and care and love and just walk alongside someone. 

And you can offer a lot of help and teaching and encouragement in that simple way. I want to accent that hope, Arlan, because you’re absolutely right. It’s freeing. And I think that answers some of the questions I have when I read the Gospels in Christ. Sometimes I think, boy, I’m not sure he answered that question really well. 

You know, I mean, forgive me. But you know what? The answer to that question wasn’t in today’s lesson only, but it’s in tomorrow’s lesson and it’s in next week’s lesson. And the mindset that Christ had is that this not a one and done lesson. Sometimes we teachers get caught by covering things. Did you cover the Renaissance? Right. Where are you at? Did you cover Chapter 13, Section 2? Yeah. So, we cover things, and as soon as things are covered, then they’re done. And we’ve tested them, and we move on, and they should know that. But when it comes to life change, when it comes to the sanctification of our lives, it’s not adequate to cover things. 

I’m not sure that ever ends quite does it, you know? Yeah. Oh, I already covered that with so and so. Right? I’ve covered that. No. It’s like, well, let’s revisit that in a different way, in a different scenario, in a different life experience. You know, two thoughts come to my mind. Number one is extremely countercultural.  

Cultural speaks about efficiency and let’s get it figured out and distributed to everybody. Okay, here’s your quick and easy sound bite answer 101 starting in August and you’ll finish that up in December and then you’ll take 201 and you’ll learn a little bit more. Yeah, but then the second point too I mean, we had this model from the beginning. That’s what parenting is, isn’t it? Where we are called, as Deuteronomy says, to teach as you walk by the way and when you get up and sit down and so on and so forth? Critical pieces there. It’s that tying together of relationship and teaching of the teacher.  

This is a lot to do with the church too, Arlan, right? Notice the difference between discipleship long ago and teaching today. We want to say something impactful, something important. Really the call of the church is discipleship. That’s how faith is meant to pass down from generation to generation, relationship to relationship. 

You can study Acts, and you can see how through relationship after relationship, intentional discipleship type relationships, people came to know the Lord. People grew in the Lord. They went from childhood to young adults to where they were propagating the faith themselves. So that’s a very bold statement. This is the call of the Church. But I believe if I understand the Great Commission, go ye into all the world, and teach all nations, I believe you can understand that word teach to make disciples. Make disciples.  

So, it is very much tied into Christ’s commission and his last instructions given to his own disciples. Very much. So, like I said, there’s that cultural piece where we have to shift our thinking a little bit from programs and efficiency to the idea of relationships and somewhat the messiness that goes along with relationships the long-term marathon type investment. When we were talking about parenting earlier, I was thinking, I am glad that it’s not a pass-fail system in parenting, and that when I mess up my lessons with my kids or when they don’t see me act as Christlike as I should, I didn’t blow the chance. 

I know that there’s an opportunity to repent and to move on and to keep teaching, and there’ll be another opportunity in the future that God will open up where I can keep going. You know, that triggered a thought when you said, act Christlike, because ultimately, he is the one and only Master and Rabbi. Here is the Achilles heel of the discipleship model. And that is, we want to raise up disciples after us. And have a house of Arlan in a school of math. If you’re not careful, yeah, for sure. And Jesus actually addressed that in Matthew 8. He says, but be not ye called rabbi, for one is your master, even Christ. And I really like that. I think that really casts an important view and flavor to this concept of discipleship. 

That when we disciple people, that we don’t disciple them up after our doings and ways. Right. And Paul will address that later in the church when you start to see people who are becoming disciples of individuals of Apollos or Paul or Peter or whatever in the Corinth church. And in 2 Timothy, a great verse, I really lean on. 

He says this in verse 2 of 2 Timothy chapter 2, it says, the things that thou hast heard of me, the same commit thou to faithful men who shall be able to teach others also. It’s not about the person; it’s about the teachings being passed down over and over and over again. So Arlan, why don’t we disciple? What are the hindrances? That was the drag on discipleship. Yeah, that’s a great question. It’s been asked by many. A couple of polls by Barna that I’ve seen recently, they would say there’s two big hindrances and I bet you can guess them. Most people would say I don’t have time. They’re too busy. 

Busyness gets in the way. Jesus had time, but I don’t. Yeah, three years to save the world, but I have time to stop and to talk to this person along the way. But in all seriousness, I do. It hits me, right? It does. It’s an intentional choice. I think I had an activity every evening this week. 

And we have to intentionally choose to make time for it. And then the second thing that they would say, kind of tied together, it is hard work to be vulnerable. You have to be vulnerable and open yourself up and put yourself out there a little bit. And it’s going to take a little bit of work. 

It requires leadership, doesn’t it? Jesus was a leader, and he has asked us to lead others as well. I would much rather be a part of that student population than the teacher population. That’s got to be something. Yeah, I think it definitely is. I think when people see that they think oh, I can’t do it. 

I’m not good enough and it’s just easier to sit on the sidelines and engage. And so, I think that’s part of why Christ’s last instructions to his disciples was, go and make disciples of all nations. There’s another passage earlier in John where he says, after he comes back, even as the Father sent me now I send you. And it’s a critical piece to realize that transference that has taken place. We are called to disciple and encourage others and walk with them in this life.  

Okay, so I’m going to have to give you a honeybee analogy here. All right. I love honeybees. In one way that we’re not supposed to be like honeybees, okay? And that is only the queen bee multiplies, only the queen bee propagates. Does that make sense? So, the population is all dependent upon her and her health, and everybody assists her. And I think in some ways we can erroneously take that model in the church and that we support that lead minister, right? 

Right. And we’re going to be there and we’re going to make sure they can get that message out as opposed to propagating the gospel, each one taking that and saying, I want to grow. I want to help our young people grow and engage. Does that make sense? 

Yeah. And supporting the minister is not a bad thing, but it’s a both and. Do that. And then also prayerfully consider how can I engage in a real way with the gifts, the talents, the abilities that God has created in me, designed me with just as he wanted and how can he use that for me to engage with others and share with them the love of Christ? 

The simple mathematics of both of those scenarios are obvious. Which one’s going to have return? Right. More return, or quicker return, or a more widespread return. And really that’s what we’re speaking to here, Arlan. I mean, we’re speaking from a facility, ACCFS, which is known to counsel. It’s known to be that place of help, right? 

Right. And what we would like to do is see the larger church equipped to take on much of the low hanging fruit on helping people and stepping into the space of discipleship, right? Exactly. And I would just echo what we have said before. The most important feature for someone to be engaged in discipleship is the willingness to engage. 

It is that willingness to find the time, be willing to be vulnerable. So, I would say, add maybe another one, willingness and availability. Yeah, and invest into someone’s life. So, we have a willing and available person on the other side of the mic here. I’m willing I’m available. 

Okay. Now how do I even go about selecting? Do I call 12 people like Jesus did? Help paint that out a little bit. Who do we notice and what are some things that we think about and how do we start that engagement? You know, I think the first thing that you do, obviously, is you begin to earnestly pray and seek the Holy Spirit’s direction as to how this is my heart, Lord. 

Use me. How can you use me? And then I think there’s an intention that when you walk into the doors of church or interact with people, you’re thinking through and saying, okay, who do you want me to reach today. So, if we were to use our church lunch today and just share a word with a reflection upon who you are, your gifting, your talents, what maybe what you feel passionate about and begin to step out. 

But I just want to draw this comparison here. What you’ve just articulated is a person coming to the doors of the church saying, I’m here to give as well as receive. So, if we were to use our model of education as we’ve already articulated, where we come and we’re just a learner. 

We receive, right? A thousand lecture halls right now are going on where all the students are receivers. They’ve got no concept of what it would mean to give in a learning environment. But the church is not that environment. A church is a giving, receiving environment of learning. A church is giving and receiving. A church is a discipleship environment where everyone is encouraged to be involved in relationships at all levels, giving, receiving, teaching, and encouraging. All are sensitive to the Spirit and all are building up the body through the power of relationship and discipleship. A couple of broad-brush observations from the Scriptures of who we would disciple. 

One is you could tell Paul had a responsibility of everybody who came to Christ through his teaching. So, if that person was a convert, as a residual of his teaching, he’d have a responsibility with that person. Right. But quickly, he incorporated others, Timothy, Titus, and others. 

And so, sometimes I think it can come in a couple of different ways. Yes. If we are influential in a person coming to Christ, that might be a natural person we disciple, but two, we might get asked from leadership to say, hey, I need you to step in and help with some of those who I am discipling. 

And some of that can come from the top down a little bit too. I encourage you that if you’re asked to go into that type of situation, that you approach it with the mindset of how I can help this person, as opposed to how I can complete this project. Or fix this person. Yeah. 

It seems harsh, but I think it’s very important to pull out, because sometimes in my life, I can view people as projects if I’m not careful. Yeah. Because that’s what I’ve been trained with. Let’s get it done and move on to the next thing. But we are engaging in a long term relationship. 

How about responsibility for the disciple? There has to be a responsibility there as well, because you look at Peter and the rest of them, they all played their part to make that discipleship experience what it needed to be. And in fact, frequently they drove the questions. They did. The Lord teaches how to pray. They asked questions. That’s a huge piece right there, Matt. They asked questions. They were teachable. They wanted to learn. There has to be intrigue. And going back to those three points that I made before, there has to be an I notice, I wonder, and I think among the disciples as well that press into the learning experience. 

And there’s another piece there too, Matt, where those who would be discipled were available and they were present and they were close to those who were discipling them. You know, the disciples lived with Jesus, and they stayed in his presence. They didn’t wait for him to seek them out and to keep finding them because they were off doing this or off doing that or whatever. 

They were intentional and invested in the relationship. So that is a key characteristic, too, of someone who wants to be discipled. And that’s a great example. I think that hits home. Now, we aren’t proposing that you have your disciples come and live with you or people like your disciples. Only if they do chores. 

And so, Matt, I think my heart today, as we’ve talked this through and sensed this need for discipleship, is just that the listener, the church, would prayerfully consider what this means in their life. In the midst of the comings and goings and the busyness of life, the number one barrier we talked about is finding time to invest and to be involved in the lives of others. 

It’s a powerful and important piece of what we’re called to do. Yeah, and the reality is Arlan, there are many in the congregation who want to step into this space. They do. And there are many in the congregation who want to receive this interaction as well. Most definitely. And so, we all kind of sit mute and silent and those connections aren’t made. 

So how wonderful would it be that the Spirit of God would make those connections by us being willing and available and allow a great deal of help and hope in this life by the way of God discipling after the model of Christ. That’s right. Arlan, you and I both know there are a lot of resources on our website at accounseling.org in the space of discipling. So, we would urge our listeners, if you would like to learn more about mentoring or have resources to help equip you in mentoring, please visit those resources. And thanks for being with us today.