Suffering Podcast Episode

Hello friends, this is Matt Kaufman, your host of Breaking Bread. Today I’m honored to bring to you the topic of suffering. The conversation that you’re about to hear actually happened months ago. Months ago, before the coronavirus was in view. And I share that with you just simply to say, that’s why it’s not referenced. 

And I suppose if we had this conversation today, it would reflect the tenor of our time. Nevertheless, I do believe that there is real suffering that many of you are enduring. We profoundly respect that suffering and pray this episode. can provide a degree of hope. Thanks for listening. 

I think early on when we enter suffering, we think the goal is and ought to be the end of that suffering. I think actually God holds out something to us far more profound and more important. Welcome friends and everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

It is wonderful to have you along. Brian Sutter and Fred Witzig are in the studio with me today. Welcome, guys. Thank you. Yeah, glad to be here. We all are living in this fallen world, and that fallen world touches us all very nearly. And the topic today is suffering, and we all have our own personal stories, and they’re all unique to us on what sufferings we endure, and so would like to have a conversation about that and about the uniquely Christian response to suffering. But I think it would be an incredible encouragement to all of us as we think about those hard things that we endure. And some things don’t have easy answers. 

Brian, that’s got to be something that you face and recognize. Right. And not only not easy answers, but answers that don’t feel sufficient. Why don’t you give us give us a few just general points to get our minds around our suffering? What are we what are we talking about here? Just a starting point would be to think about different sources of suffering. So for example, one would be the suffering that just comes through the natural world. 

Natural disasters, tornado, tsunami hurt, those sorts of things that just bring unspeakable suffering and pain and loss. Exactly. Oftentimes with suffering, it’s not fair and if you’re the one that gets struck by it, it certainly doesn’t seem fair and that adds to the suffering of why me, or this seems so random and how do you sort through that? 

So, we’ve just taken a fork in the road with that statement, random or why me, there is suffering that happens that way. And then they’re suffering by way of consequences, right? We can connect the dots and say, I am dealing with that because of these choices. And we’re including that in today’s conversation as well, but it’s important for us to note that suffering comes in a variety of ways. 

And can I add one more? Yeah. In the Scripture, there’s also a suffering that we choose, where we choose to take up our cross. And it may be that you’re sitting in a classroom at college or at high school or you’re at work and at a meeting at work and a situation develops where the Holy Spirit inspires you to speak up and you know that it will not be popular, that it very well might get you in trouble, but you choose that suffering as well. 

You say, I’m going to speak up and I will endure the consequences for Jesus Christ. So, there’s a picking up. There’s a choice as well. And I really like that Fred that choice suffering. So, we’ve just identified some comes by way of consequence. Some comes by way of lottery number coming up, right? 

And some comes by selection as we pick up our cross and follow Jesus. But I might also add to your point, Fred, about choice in the matter, we have choices in all three of those to engage the suffering. And I really think that now is helping us understand what it is we’re talking about here. 

But how then do we live with our suffering realities? And Matt, I really like that because I think there’s an element of choice in all of these situations, right? How am I going to engage the suffering and live through it? And I can choose to stumble through it myself. I can choose actually to walk away from God in bitterness and anger for what has happened to me, or I can choose to submit it to God and seek to suffer well for his purposes.  

So, there can be an element of choice, I think, in every bit of suffering. So, let me put my finger on what I think I heard you say, Fred, and then I’d like Brian to respond to this. Fred, you even sketched out a little bit of a worldview or a paradigm that only a believer might have as they engage suffering. 

So, we’ve taken another fork in the conversation and saying, Christian believer, we have a skill set, we have lenses through which we view suffering perhaps differently than the unbelieving counterpart. Is that a true statement, Brian? Oh, I think it has to be. Absolutely. Yeah, we have a lens through which to see that, to view that and to walk through it well. 

Can you sketch out the different worldviews between what a believer would have and how they put their minds around suffering and perhaps the unbelieving counterpart? Whether or not you believe in the God of the Scriptures or not, you still have to deal with the reality of suffering. And the Christian worldview gives us this perspective that says there is a good God who is the Creator God, who is in control, who loves us, who cares for us, who is walking beside us through this, and that there’s hope at the end of the story. 

That’s the Christian worldview. Whereas other worldviews would take on this perspective that either if there is a divine being in charge, they don’t care about us and essentially that we’re on our own in the midst of it, or it’s all random. And at the end of the day, suffering is nothing but how our DNA operates. 

And therefore, there’s not really any meaning in anything. So, here we’ve taken another fork in the conversation and what you’ve just said there, for one, the suffering is evidence against a loving God. But for the Christian, suffering very much possibly draws us towards a loving God. Those are major different trajectories altogether. 

Fred, is that something we see in historical Christianity? What can we learn from them in terms of suffering? Did they find suffering out of place in their world or did they find it very much a part of the fabric? What stands out? Among the, we might say recognized saints, the ones who come down to us as people who achieved victory in their suffering, and we look to as sort of models and that sort of thing is they really engage what Brian was saying. They really kept in their mind as much as they could the redemptive person’s purposes of suffering and they sought to look at suffering not as a surprise but as something to be embraced, which sounds very, very bizarre. Sure. But not that they looked forward to it necessarily or wanted it or craved it. Although some I think did in some ways that may not have been really healthy, but when it came upon them or when they chose to, because they were Christian, they maintained that mindset that Brian was talking about this is going to happen.  

I do serve a Creator God who knows. I think one of our deepest fears in suffering is in the mystery of it. Does this suggest that I have somehow gotten out of the will of God or that somehow God is missing me. He’s not noticing me. I’ve somehow gotten out of his presence, out of his eyesight or guilt. Oh, I must have done something wrong. And I think there’s a suffering that does come from sin, but I don’t necessarily think we’re focusing on that here, right? But I think oftentimes our minds go that way. I’m suffering therefore I have sinned, or God is mad at me, right? If I was a good Christian, I wouldn’t do this. 

And it seems to me what Brian was saying earlier this is so hard, and I don’t think it’s something that comes natural and then we can expect all the time. It’s not something we just wander around with a smaller face knowing this, but to just constantly be reminded that no, there is suffering, and God knows about it and he cares and we just hang on to him and he will redeem it. 

And I think that’s the lesson from the past. Casting all your cares upon him. Yeah. Right. Which we read in Peter, which is a tremendous treatise on suffering, 1st Peter. He’s continually coming back to the trial of your faith, right? The temptations that you’re going through the trial of your faith, working patience, right? 

Well, he says in 1st Peter 2, when you do well and suffer for it, you take it patiently. This is acceptable with God for even here unto were you called because Christ also suffered for us, leaving us an example that you should follow his steps. There is actually a calling to us the exact opposite of man. 

God’s angry at me. I’m a lousy Christian. The exact opposite is actually because you’re a Christian, God has called you to suffering, and to me that’s freeing and encouraging. And I think one of the things that’s so powerful, as I read Peter or Paul in different places in Scripture, how they viewed suffering is so different than what we do. 

Like you’re saying, Fred, we get surprised by it, or we think that must be a result of doing something wrong, whereas they seem to look at it as evidence that they were united with Christ and that they were partaking in the same sort of suffering that Christ did. And like you’re saying, freedom and power doesn’t change suffering, but it changes our perspective. 

So, let me just throw a little twist into the whole conversation here. And just acknowledge that many of us are in the business of alleviating suffering. Isn’t that right, Brian? Day in and day out, you work with clients. Oh yeah. Working through, and you’re trying to alleviate that suffering. Right. You’re trying to bring life to that marriage that is suffering.  

Fred, you are a teacher, right? And the suffering that comes from lack of knowledge. the lack of understanding, right? You know, let’s take a builder, for example, trying to alleviate the suffering that space and buildings make. We are all in the business of providing, you know, helping with human flourishing. 

And there is a joining of God in those endeavors. But yet I want to set that juxtaposition to what we’re talking about here. Does that make sense? Yeah. Suffering brings us closer to God. So, we love him more. We glorify him and we help others to love him and glorify him. The alleviation of suffering does not become, I’m doing this because I think we’ll knock out all suffering. 

That’s not the Christian message, right? Why does a Christian doctor lovingly care for a patient and administer medicine? Why does she do that? I don’t know. Because she’s demonstrating the loving care of Jesus Christ. What I hear you saying there, Fred, is we really partner with God, which steps into suffering and brings reconciliation. 

All of us at some levels are doing that. And so, we have this wonderful intermix of suffering and alleviation of that suffering, but alleviation is not always possible. And even in those cases, there’s hope, right? Right. Yeah. And that’s, again, like from the Christian worldview, our end goal isn’t necessarily to solve suffering. 

Our end goal isn’t necessarily that we would be happy or comfortable. Obviously, we like those things and those are not bad things, but that is not the highest pursuit that we have. And I think in many ways, suffering is God’s faithfulness to help reorient us our hearts and minds back to what is the ultimate drive, and that is connection with the Lord and honoring his name, pointing people to him. 

And we can do that through our own suffering and God reorienting our hearts as well as walking through that well in a way that helps, again, make Christ something that is appealing. If we were to make a list of what advantages suffering brings, Brian, you just said perspective. It brings you to a Godward perspective. 

And maybe I’ll add to what you said and say, when we realize that life is not about this is a really important lesson for all of us to learn. And I think in the midst of it, it’s very easy to get skeptical and come to this place of saying, well, then nothing matters. And again, that is I need to pour into the things the Lord has given me opportunity in and loving my kids, right? You brought two things together with that example of loving your kids, and that is love and suffering. And they do couple up pretty close together, don’t they? 

Those things that we suffer in are often those things that we love. Right. Right. I love my health. That’s why this is suffering because it’s not going so well. I love my marriage, and this is why I’m suffering. I love my children, and I’m hurt and wounded by them and that’s why I’m suffering with them. 

Yeah. And I think that’s where we see our calling. So, take an example of a bad marriage or difficulty with children or a conflict at work. We can choose to walk away. We can choose to stay in the marriage but detach from the other person, shield ourselves. In other words, to not love. Love oftentimes brings suffering because we are engaged with the person enough to see and to actually care. God doesn’t say here, you do this and good luck. He’s modeled for me in sending his own Son and loving in that kind of a way. And that led to his own suffering and pain. He’s in this with me and he’s taken the risk, a higher risk than I have. 

And I don’t know. I’m really inspired by that. So, 1 Peter 5:10 says, the God of all grace, who hath called us unto his eternal glory by Christ Jesus, after that ye have suffered a while, make ye perfect, establish strengthen, and settle you. And he will make you complete. He’ll settle your heart. He’ll stabilize you. He will ground you, which is really, really important. A huge promise. One of the reasons we hate suffering, and we fear suffering is it’s unsettling. Yes. It’s unsettling. Yes. Right. I can’t stand necessarily on the moorings of my marriage. I can’t stand on the moorings of having kids that are turning out a certain way. I can’t stand on the moorings of my reputation. I can’t stand on the moorings of my health. I can’t stand on the moorings of my financial bank account. Suffering. It’s all collapsing. And yet that verse suggests that through suffering we’re settled by the ways that you’ve just mentioned.  

Hanging on to the mooring of Christ, right? Yes. I’ve got suffering in my life, and I’m equipped for it. Not for its alleviation, necessarily, but for its endurance. I think we learn that’s actually enough. I think early on when we enter suffering, we think the goal is and ought to be the end of that suffering, right? 

I will be okay again when the suffering ends, right? I think actually God holds out something to us far more profound and more important, and that is a settled heart, a peace in our soul. And I think we can see the same thing in older brothers and sisters, all these horrible things have happened and yet they just exude a peace and a stability and a closeness with Jesus Christ. 

And they’ve been perfected, established, strengthened, and settled, right? And I think as I talk with them, I think, you know what? there is something far more important than just the pain went away. Right. Yeah. And I think to your point there, Fred, I think one of the things from just a counseling perspective that comes to mind there is it seems to me that when you observe that it’s partly because they’ve been able to move away from the questions of why and having to understand, which are things that we all want. 

But at the end of the day, being able to say the whys that I have, I guess I’m going to have to accept those. And now it’s going to be, how do I move forward trusting God’s promises, trusting he is who he describes himself in the Scriptures? And that leaves a lot of things unanswered, but it gives me something to pursue other than just the disappearance of suffering and then I’ll be okay. 

But Brian, are you saying that it’s wrong or it’s sinful to ask why, that there’s never a time where we should ask why? No, I mean, I don’t know how you cannot ask why, but I think the goal in my mind is to let yourself ask why, to be patient with that, and yet then over time be able to come to this place of setting that question down, even though you may not have the answer that feels sufficient for you. 

I totally agree. And I totally agree with how Brian explained this about asking why and then moving on from why. But this is really dear to me. This is really important to me that we do. We are allowed space to ask why for a while and in faith. Yeah. I love how Job asked why he wrestled. But if you read through there, it was in confidence that God was righteous. 

I mean if you read it, it was always God is utterly righteous. So, I don’t understand why this is happening to me because they’re righteous. Why this? Exactly. That is different than God’s not righteous. This is wrong. I’m walking away. I’m going to act right. Is there a why that takes us away? 

There’s a why that expresses confidence in God’s goodness. And in fact, the way that you said it, there is a why that wells up because of faith. He’s big enough to shoulder the question. Yeah. But whether it wells up from faith or non-faith, I think, is a difference. Yeah. And you know, just to maybe jump on the back of what you’re saying, I think it is so key. 

And when we’re walking through suffering with somebody, it sometimes feels so uncomfortable and we’re too quick to ask them to move on. And so, I think that would be an important thing for us to remember, that if you’re walking with somebody through suffering, that’s a slow process and for us too, to be able to be patient with ourselves as well as others in the midst of intense suffering. 

And I really appreciate that too, Brian, because he calls us to engage in the suffering of others. I mean, in part of his wise purposes, I suppose the theologians will go along and argue about whether God inflicts suffering or whether God allows suffering. So, we’re not going to settle that one here today. 

But I think we can all agree that God redeems suffering. Yes. And when he does, does he not triumph over the curse of Satan in a special, unique day to day way? He did it on the cross once for all, but then he does it on and on as if to say, and we see it there in the story of Job. Sure, Satan. You can have some latitude. I’ll redeem it. So, in studying church history, something kept appearing to me that I was very skeptical at first. And that is the verse that they would often point to is 1 Peter 4:1, For as much then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves, likewise with the same mind for he that hath suffered in the flesh, hath ceased from sin. 

What it seems to say and what many through church history have read this to say is that suffering defeats sin in us, that one way of overcoming sin is through suffering. I think theologically, I don’t understand that because it sounds like we’re paying for our sin, but that is not what they’re saying at all. 

What they’re saying is that there is something in the experience of suffering and it concentrates our minds, our attentions, our hearts on God so much that we’re not going to sin. Does that make sense? Yeah. That’s the only thing that I can figure out. And you look at people who suffered in church history and they will often point to this. And say, this is sanctifying me, this is cleansing me of sin and pushing out of me in a sense, I guess, pushing out of me, expunging my sinful desires and that sort of thing. It’s a profound verse that I don’t really understand or can grasp or appreciate fully, but I think it’s true. 

Let’s just bring suffering down. Okay. I think we have some high platitudes of understanding what suffering is, right? Whether it be huge health issues or huge financial woes or a mental illness or a lot of these things. Let’s bring it down to the local level of warring against sin. 

That’s suffering. Yeah. I want to, I can, and I know I shouldn’t. I mean, don’t we all think about that every single day? I want to, I can, but I shouldn’t. And isn’t that even bringing suffering near to us. Is there a way for me to process I want to, I can, but I shouldn’t? Is there a way to even process that daily experience for all of us? 

In this understanding of suffering, perhaps it is, as you say, easy to say this behind a mic, right? Yeah, I love C. S. Lewis and the problem of pain. I mean towards the end, he says, you know, I’ve got all of this understanding or this philosophy and then I get a paper cut. And then all of a sudden that’s just like, your finger hurts and that’s all that you can think of. 

And to be clear, we do not want to minimize suffering that people have. No, there’s deep and real suffering there. And this is not in any way to minimize and say, here’s a package put your suffering in this package and then you’ll be able to carry it. Yeah. And I feel like we need to say one more thing to be clear and not to be misunderstood. 

We should never inflict suffering, should we? We should never have this twisted view that for all the advantages these guys have just shared about suffering, I’m going to inflict suffering on my spouse. Or on my children or on ourselves or on myself to inflict suffering, right? Right. Amen. 

Suffering is something that God redeems. Brothers, I think the case has been well made here today that as believers, we have a different perspective on suffering than our non-believing counterparts have. Okay. And that actually is a tremendous hope to the world, is it not? Yes. Okay. And it’s really woven throughout the Scriptures and throughout our hymnody. 

I’d like to share a hymn. And it’s Thou my everlasting portion, more than friend or life to me. So, we sing this hymn. Here’s one of the verses, not for ease or worldly pleasure, not for fame, my prayer shall be. Gladly will I toil and suffer, only let me walk with thee. I think we’ll find, if our antenna is up for it, that suffering, and the narrative of suffering, has been a long-held part of the doctrine of believers. 

What a way for us to connect with the timeless experience of faith, right? When you read the Zion’s Harp as an expression of people who suffered and found victory, and I think we should engage them because they’re really important, deep seated, theologically profound engagements with the reality of suffering. 

Many of them are, I mean, you’ve seen them, notice the real depth of heart and wrestling in theology. And then notice also that even in the one that I’m going to think of as pants the heart which I always like to sing to the end. Because it’s in the end, mainly, where you get the triumph, but it does have triumph. 

It’s a long six or seven verses until you get to the triumph. And I used to not like that. But in suffering, I came to love that song, especially at the very end, because there is an expression of faith in triumph at the end. But Fred, isn’t that the story of suffering? Seven, twelve, fourteen, fifteen verses, seasons, before the sixteenth? 

Yeah, that’s right. Well, thank you both for your insights. A lot more could be said on the topic of suffering and to our friends, each one that has listened, we pray that you could connect your own personal suffering, which you no doubt endure, to some of the concepts that have been shared. 

And we hope and pray some perspective has been brought to bear on the suffering that you endure. We respect that suffering, and we are honored to speak to that very dear and near part of your life, and can only trust that you would feel the nearness of God in the suffering that you endure. Thanks for being with us. 

Goodbye.