Abuse in Marriage Podcast Series

That when we fully live the gospel, when we understand who Christ is and how he lives, it is the most protective thing against abuse that there is. 

Welcome friends to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Today in the studio is Ted and Kaleb. Welcome guys. Thanks, Matt. It’s good to be here. The topic today is on abuse, and this is a very sensitive topic. Yeah, it is one of those topics that is sometimes not talked about because it is unpleasant or as we’ve been seeing more and more in the news, oftentimes things hit front page or big stories and things of that nature. 

So, it seems like either this topic goes silent or sensational, and oftentimes there’s a lot of people lost in the middle. Yeah. As we look at the life of Jesus, and as he walked here on this earth, there were those who were in places of vulnerability. He walked into that and was with them. And when we think of victims of abuse, I think of those situations and circumstances and the need for us to go into those places. 

And so now I’m going to pair up two comments, one, Ted, you mentioned the news and Kaleb, you mentioned Jesus. And it’s very sad that in the news we often seen church and abuse and things going sideways, don’t we? Yeah. And for us as a church to pretend or airbrush these types of things out does nobody good. 

There are realities in life, and the interesting thing is abuse cuts across all socioeconomic, racial, religious, all the different divides you can think of, and it is one of those things that by its nature, because of the hiddenness, because of the shame involved, because of the fear involved, things of those nature, you can’t necessarily always just say, well, I know exactly what’s going on where. 

And while abuse is a vast topic and comes into picture in lots of different areas, we are narrowing our discussion here today on marriage. Yes. And the other forms of abuse outside of marriage, like child abuse or child sexual abuse, things of that nature, very important topics, just not what we’re covering today. 

Consider us as uneducated. Okay. I am uneducated. And so, I think there’s some wherewithal that we have to have some grounding, maybe a rudder or an anchor to say, all right, this is how we process what this word means. And I’d love it if you guys can help bring some clarity to this concept of abuse. 

Yeah. And I’d also say Matt that I think our focus here today, like you led off with, is educational and informative. And as we’re walking through this topic, defining what it is, clarifying behaviors, certainly this isn’t meant to be a form of therapy for those who are involved in these situations. We feel very strongly that individuals who are involved in abusive relationships need professional help. It’s complex. It’s challenging, filled with intense emotions and confusing emotions. And so, this isn’t intended to be a form of treatment. Oh, absolutely. And that scope is incredibly important. 

And that’s really all we’re asking for on the other side of this thing. Give me some terms and some definitions. Help me get my mind around this word that we’re hearing so frequently. And it’s a growing concern, I would say. Am I right on that? A growing concern? Sure. One of the things that I would start with is to see abuse on a continuum with ranges. And when you think of marriages, there are healthy marriages, and a healthy marriage doesn’t have to be a perfect marriage, but relatively healthy, and everybody’s got their quirks or their challenges. 

But as a healthy marriage, then in the middle here of this continuum are marriages that are struggling in some way. They might be disappointing marriages. They might be even unhappy marriages. They might have some unhealthy dynamics. And again, Kaleb works a lot with marriages of various types and those kinds of marriages with marital counseling. 

You know, they’re marriages that are struggling in some way. But again, the fact that there is some discomfort or pain, or disconnection doesn’t necessarily mean that there’s abuse. It doesn’t mean there’s abuse. Right. And then the third group, as we go to the far side of the continuum here, is the abusive kind of marriage. 

And this is a marriage in which the kinds of dynamics are the same. Control and demeaning behaviors are going to strike at the very core of marital trust and are really tearing somebody down. And remember, across this continuum, some people say, well, haven’t we all been abusive? And I would just say this, that every one of us has had sinful behavior, okay? 

Every husband or wife has sometimes acted towards their spouse in an un-Christlike way. They’ve said things they shouldn’t, they’ve been silent when they shouldn’t have been, and I’m not excusing that. But we want to distinguish between abusive behavior, in which really, you’re going to see a pattern of control, you’re going to see a pattern of demeaning, you’re going to see a pattern of disconnection, and that’s very different from when a husband or wife comes home from a hard day and somebody says, hey, how you doing? 

And one spouse snaps at the other one goes, rah, rah, rah, and says some unkind things. It’s not acceptable. It’s not right. They should apologize, but I wouldn’t call that abuse. And that’s important. I think perhaps all of us wonder at some point in our lives, whether it’s with a tense moment with our children or with our spouse, I’m very regretful for what just happened. 

Am I abusive? Right. And so, we ratchet this up. And I appreciate that. We do have that on our ticker. Like, whoa, am I that? So, to provide some definition that we can understand what this is, you hit on some key words that I think you’re going to expand on in terms of patterns and that type of thing. 

So really speak to this area, Kaleb. Absolutely. So, before I jump into the kinds of buckets, I would add to what Ted was saying, I think one of the things that happens as well in abusive marriages is the tendency towards these behaviors that we will talk about and clarify will increase in frequency and increase in intensity generally. 

It’s not like it’s a point in time and then it goes years and then oh we have another episode, but generally there’s a trend of increasing the amount that it happens and the intensity at which it happens is often associated with abusive relationships. 

Oftentimes we talk about abusive cycles, where it kind of cycles down for a little bit, maybe even goes through a honeymoon phase, but then there’s these peaks that the intensity really comes around. Yeah. Which I would imagine really wears on the victim because they are hoping against hope that things are repaired and maybe through that cycle of goodness, it’s like, okay, this is good. This is fixed. Absolutely. And then all of a sudden, this realization that no, it’s not fixed at all.  

Yeah. You hit the nail on the head there, Matt, which is why it’s so confusing for individuals caught in this. And from someone outside of the relationship, they would have thoughts about what they should do or the ways that they should handle it that seem very clear but aren’t clear when you’re in the midst of it. 

Hey, there’s a honeymoon period. Yes, he or she is going to do better next time. And then there’s this false hope that things are going to get better. And then, like Ted said, it builds up to a point that there’s another episode of abuse or destructive behavior. So, it becomes very confusing. Like, oh, they’re repentant. 

Oh, they’re not. And it’s kind of back and forth and being yanked back and forth in a marriage where you love that individual, right? You want it to work. And so that really wraps itself into maintaining an abusive cycle within the marriage relationship. Almost universally, we’ll find, too, that in abusive relationships, there’s also a degree of isolation. 

And so, what you have when a couple is struggling this badly, it’s not that the husband’s saying, wow, I handled this badly, I need accountability. I need people to speak into my life and I need help working with this. It’s generally we lock it up inside the house and we don’t want anybody around and nobody needs to know our business et cetera, et cetera. 

I work in a field where we value confidentiality. I’m not talking about posting our stuff up on the billboard. But at the same time, the reality is that Satan loves isolation. He flourishes in isolation. And with the combination of the cycle of abuse, the shame that people feel and the cycling, the reality is isolation ends up being a key part of what maintains an abusive situation.  

What are some areas of abuse? So, for example, the thing that comes to my mind right away is physical abuse. Striking, hitting, all of those types of things. I would imagine abuse has a wider scope than that. Yeah. So physical abuse certainly is one form of abuse. Sometimes it’s called domestic violence, if you’ve heard that term before. And that’s where there’s physical aggression, pushing, shoving, slapping, hitting, even forms of physical aggression, like throwing plates across the room, and breaking them in front of people is a form of domestic violence, even though it’s not directed at someone. 

So let me clarify, the objects are not necessarily thrown at the person, but it could just be in a rage. Yes, it’s called symbolic violence. And the fact is, it’s kind of that thing of putting holes in the door. I put a hole in the wall. It’s sending a message to the other person that is saying you shape up or else. 

Yeah, I would preface as we walk through these. My tendency is, I don’t know about you, Ted, to generally communicate that the male is the abuser, but that isn’t always the case. We’re doing that here just for simplicity. But certainly, it happens the other way around also. So, I just wanted to clarify this as we walk through this. 

I’m glad that you did. That’s a necessary part of the discussion. Yeah. So, then the next place is can I ask a question about the symbolic? I think that’s fresh for me and haven’t thought about that. So, as part of the abuse there’s leverage or holding over a threat. Does that make sense? 

Yes, like I did this to the wall. I could just as well do it to you. Yeah, and even when a child watches a mom get hit even though it wasn’t towards the child, you’ve communicated a lot to the child. What it says is, this environment is not safe. And the normal boundaries around what is safe behavior are suspended. Rationally, I can say, oh, that brother that did that, well, they’d never rationally, like, logically, even though they punched a hole in the wall, they’d never hit you. Rationally. Yeah. But that’s different when we’re talking about the emotion of fear that someone was in that environment and saw that plate or that hole through the wall. 

It’s fear. It’s intimidation. And for that reason, it’s not okay. Yeah. And I want to couple this with something that you said previously that we’re talking about patterns growing in intensity and cyclic, right? Because I think a lot of people have gone off the handle in some way. You know, pitched something in the yard, you know what I’m saying? 

And I do want to provide a little bit of grounding here, but still is something to think about. That really what I’ve done in that moment, I’ve placed a threat that sits over all who have seen it or in that environment. When people think of marital abuse, physical abuse is the one that comes to mind. 

But actually, in terms of the amount of abuse out there, physical abuse isn’t the most frequent but it’s the easiest to see. I tell you what, if somebody has bruises on their arms and things like that. It has to be the easiest to define. Well, I don’t know. You can tell me that and certainly boundaries are crossed. Oh yeah. Physically, you can see it. Somebody goes to the emergency room because of bruises and broken bones and that’s easier to define because there’s a physical aspect to it.  

The problem is that physical abuse doesn’t just communicate something physically. It communicates striking at an even deeper level emotionally and that takes us on to another kind of abuse. So emotional abuse is another area of abuse and sometimes it’s referred to as psychological abuse or verbal abuse and we would put these all in the same category. So emotional abuse strikes at the very heart of our identity and personhood in Christ but it’s elusive in the sense that I don’t have a black eye, or I don’t have marks on my arm, but it is something that strikes at the sacredness of personhood. 

You’re striking at the very sacred nature of being a God image bearer. Yeah. Right. And that’s really interesting. As you mentioned, even physical abuse at the core is doing that. I think at the deepest core, sticks and stones are so harmful because of the meaning that it transfers above and beyond the physical harm. Kaleb’s exactly right. The reality of what it’s doing is demeaning a person. Again, all of us have said hurtful things. Okay. And again, we’re not going to say that’s acceptable to say hurtful things. But when we talk about emotional abuse, we’re talking about a pattern of demeaning, controlling. It could be a controlling silence. 

It could be, you know, lots of different things, but in each of those I want to key in on a word, though. Sure. So, you said controlling. Is that a key word in this abuse concept? Yeah. Does that make sense? Oh, yeah. Because I think there’s a difference there with that word controlling than doing life through hairy moments. 

Does that make sense? Yeah. So, needle in on controlling. What do you mean by that? Yeah. I think all of us would like to have life in certain ways. We like to have control in terms of our schedules and how things go. You want dinner at six o’clock. Exactly. Things like that. But, for example, the difference is, let’s say somebody wants dinner at six o’clock, but let’s say dinner isn’t at six o’clock. 

And then what comes out of somebody’s mouth is, what did I ever do to deserve a terrible, bleeping, bleeping wife like you? You know, here I thought I was going to get a godly woman who was going to take care of me, but what did I get? You’ve never lived up to that. So, it’s berating, it’s demeaning. 

And again, when you think about the mind of Christ, when you think about the Scripture that talks about letting our speech be seasoned with salt that we administer grace to the hearers and all those things. Can you imagine words like that coming out of the mouth of Jesus? No, not at all. 

And that’s why I say that when we fully live the gospel, when we understand who Christ is and how he lives, it is the most protective thing against abuse that there is. So, that’s worth repeating, right? So, you’re saying that the gospel is very central to protection of myself and others in an abusive relationship. 

It keeps us from that. Yeah, and anytime Bible verses or spiritual themes are used to tear down another person, that’s a distortion of the Scripture. Sometimes people say, well, Christianity promotes X, Y, or Z, and no, Christianity promotes viewing each other as image bearers. 

Christianity promotes that we see in marriage that we’re one, members one of another, that we’re supposed to honor and respect one another, love one another, lay down our lives for each other. Okay? Amen. And anybody who uses Scripture to say it makes it okay for me to treat somebody as inferior, to treat somebody as a slave, or I’m master of the castle and you’re going to do what I say. 

I think that’s an important metric actually to really think about how I use Scripture, because that would be using Scripture not after the pattern and the example that Scripture gives. The words of Scripture confirm our identity in Christ, resettle us in our personhood in Christ, right? 

Show the way on how we can become that. And the examples that you showed, unwind all of that. You know, it makes me think of the Ten Commandments taking the name of God, our Lord, in vain, almost using his name and saying, God says this, right? Which is atrocious, really. Yeah, it really is. And I would say another form of verbal abuse is guilt tripping. 

Often what’s used is, I can communicate a message, but it’s out of guilt that I want to get the other person to do something for me. So even a comment like, I thought you loved and cared for me. I guess I was wrong. See? So, what it does is it holds the individual at the end of that message on the hook. That conveys, oh, they need to do something because they’re guilty when they haven’t done anything wrong, but it’s very confusing. 

Oh yeah. Another one, emotional blackmail can occur sometimes. If you don’t do this, I’ll just kill myself. You know, we’re not talking about a depressed person who’s feeling like life is hopeless. Right. We’re talking about somebody manipulating, saying. You know what? In essence, I’m not getting my way therefore, I’m going to hold the threat out over you that I’m going to kill myself. And it causes intense fear.  

So, sexual abuse in marriage. Yeah. What is that? Sexual abuse is really about control manipulation, an individual being forced to engage in acts that they’re not consensual about, and they’re not okay with. But because the abuser is forcing them or demanding them or using guilt tripping. Certainly, those acts may or may not be outside of the bounds of Scripture as well. Yes, that’s true. And ultimately, it’s really important to understand God’s design for sexuality in marriage has mutuality built into it. 

It has oneness. Yeah, and that’s the distinction I want to bring. We’re not just talking about acts that are outside of God’s design. Yes. We’re talking about being uncomfortable to somebody. Yep, they feel shameful to engage in them, but yet we go back to the individual, the abuser is not aware or empathizes or understands what it’s like for the individual to engage in those acts. 

So certainly, in this sexual abuse section, you can see how verbal abuse and physical abuse tie into it. We’re defining these as distinct categories, yet they blur. Yeah, very much. Within all these things, when you look at emotional, sexual, or physical abuse, and then how do you know when something is or isn’t present in a healthy relationship, there is mutuality. Meaning we’re both partners in this and I take your thoughts into consideration, and you take mine into consideration, et cetera. There’s reciprocity and that means sometimes I’ll do what you like to do. You want to do that and sometimes I’ll do it, and we go back and forth and there’s just sharing as opposed to what you find happening in abusive relationships where mutuality is absent. 

Or it only happens during the honeymoon phase of things and the concept of somebody having the freedom to choose their own way, like a lady who wants to go out to lunch with her friend and the abusive person says, no, you can’t have contact with that friend as a way to control or manage who she talks to. 

Okay. For example, to limit or isolate her. That’s out of bounds. Thanks, Ted. And that makes a lot of sense. And to you, Kaleb, I appreciate you brothers bringing some clarity and defining some boundaries for this important topic of abuse. That’s all too relevant in our lives. We are all touched by abuse in some way and in some fashion, and I think today’s episode has provided a bit of a rudder for this important topic. 

And thanks, brothers, for bringing that clarity. And to our listeners, we trust and pray this has been helpful to you. There are more resources on our website at accounseling.org in the topic of abuse, and we trust and hope that they can be of service to you. 

There is hope. Part of our work is shifting to hope in restoring your soul. And seeing yourself in God’s image and in knowing and hearing truth and in finding safety. There’s hope in that and there’s restoration. Ted and Kaleb are back on the air with me today. In our last episode, these guys helped us understand the nature of abuse as it occurs in marriage. 

Today we will needle into some of the finer points concerning the topic. As listeners, we hope that this discussion will shed light on this confusing reality, and at the same time equip you to be of help in these marriages in crisis. And Kaleb, in the last episode, we put our finger on what abuse was. Now in this episode, what do we do with it? 

There are a couple of areas as a victim that you might commonly experience in going through abuse within marriage. So, the first place is what we would call safety. If you think about the abuse that we talked about, when your safety has been robbed from you, then you experience fear, you experience high levels of anxiety. 

So, you feel that in your body, you feel that in your racing thoughts and minds. So that would be a common, typical experience of a victim. So, an abused person has been touched at the very basic levels of life, right? So, that’s got to be number one, preserving that safety or finding that safe place. 

Yeah, it’s particularly true when physical or sexual abuse is present. Safety becomes a really important thing. It’s almost a primary thing, in particular, if somebody’s in threat of physical harm, there’s no question. But this is very helpful for me. I almost wonder if that’s your first question. 

I’m thinking as a person who might encounter such a thing. Are you safe? Yeah. Would be my first question. Yeah. Do you feel safe? The other area is the area of trust. So certainly, trust comes along with safety. Can I trust the other person? But also internally, can I trust my own experiences, my own thoughts? 

Maybe I was in the wrong. Maybe I deserve this. The feelings I’m having, can I even trust that they’re right and they’re true? The self-doubt that we see in abuse victims is oftentimes very high. It’s why, as we counsel, we want to know who that person has in their support network so they can get a reality check and get counsel because as a victim, you can get isolated and then you get lost in between your own perceptions and twisting perceptions and things of that nature. 

I might not think correctly. Yeah, exactly. And so that would be one thing that as you step alongside somebody, help them think correctly about things. And we all can do that. Just talking to support people. What we’re asking for in a relationship is the basic things about physical safety. Emotional safety or respect kindness. 

On the one hand that’s pretty basic Ted, but those are the things that are missing. And I would guess that the self-doubt part would keep things in the dark or isolated. I would imagine that would be an outgrowth. Absolutely. maybe I’m just the crazy one here. Why would I share that with others? Because I risk perpetuating that I am the crazy one and maybe I’m just messed up and I deserve that. And so at least in this third component, which Ted touched on, self-doubt, but self-esteem is viewing myself in the image of Christ as a victim. I really struggle with that, but I begin to take on the voice or internalize the abuser’s language. And so, I’m just trash or I’m just nothing. I’m no good. And so therefore I deserve it. Yeah. And so, we become a product of the messaging that we hear. Sure. And we start to internalize that.  

Is there an antidote to that other than speaking the truth and speaking the truths of Scripture? Support people have the opportunity to just come alongside and to reinforce the things that are true. There’s a belief that if I go and talk to somebody about the abuse that’s happening that I’m doing something wrong. And it’s like I’m the one that’s going to wreck this marriage. 

It’s kind of like it’s gotten flipped around. The fact is the silence accidentally protects the sin from being dealt with. The silence protects the abuse from coming into light. Yeah, and I think with that, as helpers, one of the things that I would encourage is that we take them seriously. For victims to step out and share, there’s incredible shame, there’s incredible fear with that. And so, as helpers to come alongside, to hear them, to seek to understand before we move too quickly into even speaking the truth is to hear them, to give them a voice and to send the message that you’re not crazy. Right. And I think with it, we have to remember too, that each situation is different. 

We want to know what’s real in a relationship, so we know how to intervene in that relationship. Because the fact is sometimes, we deal with situations where we have to deal with safety plans and where can somebody go to be safe? And we have to sometimes deal with orders of protection and things like that. That’s not every time. But sometimes that’s real. Yeah. And when it is, we need to treat it like it’s real. When it’s a lower level, we can deal with it at a different pace or a different way. So, we don’t want to impose that every situation is the worst case. It’s a 10 out of 10 on this thing. Exactly. But what we don’t want to do is even if something is in the lower end, if someone needs help and they need intervention, we don’t want to just turn a blind eye to that.  

And I think we have to acknowledge as helpers that we desperately don’t want to believe it. If that makes sense, there is this like inertia within us that says, I don’t want to for very good reason, right? And I wonder sometimes if that puts us on the heels then of maybe being overly skeptic. But I want to capture something you said, Kaleb, and that was, seek to understand and Ted, that’s what you’re saying too, is to understand the situation. We’re not jumping to conclusions here. We’re just simply saying, let’s understand what it is we’re talking about. 

Oftentimes people don’t realize that they know 10 percent of the story and they don’t know 90 percent of the story. We oftentimes perceive our 10 percent as I know 90 percent and the other 10 percent doesn’t really matter. All I can say is, being a counselor for a long period of time, is that people assume they know way more about situations than is accurate. 

There’s a public perception and a private perception. Part of what we bump up against is, oh, he’d never do something like that. Or, no, she’d never do that. Which is a perception, right, that I have of that person. And now you’ve just told me information that challenges that. Yeah. What’s my first response to that? 

To resist it. Yeah. To resist it. Become defensive. So, what’s really hard is in the cycle of abuse to begin to piece out what is truth. Because we all have perceptions of what happened. And it’s not like anybody’s perfect. It kind of skews your perspective on truth. You know, I think this person was wrongly accused by this crazy wife and I think this person was abused by that husband. 

But I often think sometimes, you know, if you take an investigator for a crime, let’s say he has to ask some uncomfortable questions and those questions are loaded. What are you implying by that investigator? Well, I’m just trying to understand the truth here, right? And you no doubt have to do that in a way. 

Is that right? It is and I think there are a couple of pieces to that early on. We’re trying to make sure everybody’s safe. Okay, we start with safety but after that we have to deal with the fact that there are always perceptions. There are always perceptions of how bad something was, what happened, when it happened, you know, those kinds of things. 

It is very easy then once perceptions start to unfold, people who want to be helpful either take the husband’s side, the wife’s side, whatever. And people start side taking. And again, the intent is to try to protect and help, but oftentimes side taking can morph into a life of its own. Ultimately, we would love to see the things come to light and lead to restoration and reconciliation. But in order to get there, we have to have some things where people are willing to talk about uncomfortable things in relationship. We have to have people that are willing to be honest, people willing to be accountable, people willing to be humble. 

And unfortunately, I’m just going to be really honest. That’s rare. It’s rare in these scenarios for people to come in and say, I was abusive, or I did that kind of thing. I’m curious why that’s the case. And then there’s probably no clear answer. Well, I was thinking about that too as you were sharing, part of it has to do oftentimes with mental illness and the impact that has on my perception of what reality is. I think part of it can be what I’ve learned from my own upbringing as far as what’s okay, what’s not okay.  

There are oftentimes lenses that affect the perception of the abuser that greatly distorts reality. Yeah. One thing, though, and I don’t disagree with those things. I do think that sometimes there’s a perception that people who have mental illness may be more likely to be violent or abusive, things like that. Overall, that’s not a true statement. I mean, just because somebody has depression doesn’t mean they’re going to be abusive, but it is also true that people who are struggling in a variety of ways have a variety of things going on that are adding to their own lack of mental wellness, lack of spiritual wellness, things of that nature.  

Yeah, that clarification is important. I believe also that it is okay for things to take time to unfold and try to understand where a couple is on things. It’s not like a hurt relationship is going to automatically go from hurting to great again right off the bat, but it takes time and some tolerance because sometimes abuse has occurred. And then there’s a separation or there is some kind of disruption to the relationship or whatever. 

When we get involved in these situations, how do we engage? Start with safety and then try to understand and that takes time, but the intervention is different. For example, for a couple who has a minor argument, what we’d call the kitchen table versus someone who’s clearly on the other end of that continuum next to divorce. 

And so, we would approach a situation with a couple who has had a kitchen table argument much differently than we’d approach a couple on the brink of divorce. And oftentimes I think as helpers, it’s important for us to differentiate those and understand that those different levels need different interventions. 

Yeah. I think that’s a great point, Kaleb, because it’s oftentimes well-meaning friends and people at church and family that want to kind of push the couple together. Yeah, in general we would say that couples should spend time together and things like that, but at the same time, if you have severe abuse dynamics going on, trying to shove people together in the middle of that could be extremely wrong and even be a dangerous scenario. 

No doubt this contributes to the whole conundrum as we find ourselves in a complete theological debacle where marriage is divine, and the sanctity of marriage. And so, we have this delegate truth along with personhood is divine and God image bearing and treating one another, right? And we’ve got them pitted one with the other. 

And so, you can see how big of a storm this can make pretty easily because there’s no problem finding a point to stand on. Yes. Oh yeah. When sin is played out in relationships, the Bible goes through all these things that leads to this and leads to this and eventually leads to death. Well, you know what? 

In marriages, sin that plays out hurts trust and damages the individuals and things like that. It can move on to the point where it damages a relationship permanently. That’s a terrible thing. It’s a sad thing. I can’t pretend that it’s not a real thing. Our goal, and in fact, here at ACCFS, we’re trying very much to help people on the healthy side. 

We want to get engaged couples started off in the right foot. We want people to be doing marriage enrichment and families to be healthy. But the reality is, we also have to deal with the fact that sometimes we’re dealing with situations with abuse dynamics that leave the marriage on life support. When it arrives, we’re going to try to help anybody wherever they’re at. 

Time has gone fast here, guys. So, let’s draw this to a close. And I would like you to speak to the victim. And here’s why I’m asking you to speak to the victim because some may be victims and hear that. But for those of us who are not victims, we’re going to hear about how to speak to a victim. Does that make sense? 

I think of a number of the Psalms that speak and cry out to victim hearts. There is hope. Part of our work is shifting to hope in restoring your soul, right? And seeing yourself in God’s image and in knowing and hearing truth and in finding safety. There’s hope in that and there’s restoration. The desire to have everything just be okay is so strong, the desire for the marriage to be okay, the desire for all the attention to just go away is so strong and the self-doubt sometimes is so strong that you are willing to accidentally excuse bad behavior or take somebody’s promises that it’s never going to happen again, and then drop boundaries and drop the kind of accountability, honesty, and humility that’s going to actually lead to change. 

And the hope is to focus on getting grounded in Christ, in what healthy relationships are, and what a healthy family is, and what healthy parenting is, and connecting to the body of Christ. That’s the most important thing, because my hope is, and your hope is, that the relationship is also going to be restored. 

But that takes two. And sometimes as individuals, we can only do our part, and we can’t do the other person’s part. And that’s sad, but it’s also livable. Answer this question though. Am I resigning the best to get just what you said? And that is Christ’s identity in Jesus. Does that make sense? Because I think that’s at the heart of everybody’s question. 

Am I resigning the best, and that is my relationship. Yep. It’s not that they’re loving the marriage too much. It’s that the focus on Christ is too little. And what happens with that is Christ would say no to abuse in the marriage, and he would call out the sin. I’d like you to speak to the abuser now for the purpose of all of us to hear how that is, and how that interaction might look again. Speak to the heart of an abuser.  

There is also hope. I would say the journey is hard. It’s not easy, but there is hope of restoration. And a couple of key things that I think are important is one surrounding yourself by individuals that can provide healthy accountability, healthy truth speaking into your life, continuing to seek humble approach to life and accepting that truth, which isn’t easy for any of us. 

You know what, Matt? I think every person that I’ve dealt with that has done well at being able to shift hurtful or abusive behavior or just unhealthy behavior has owned it. They’ve been willing to look at the truth and be able to say, instead of, well, I wouldn’t have this if you hadn’t done that, okay, regardless of what you did, this is what I did. 

It’s the person who is willing to take the time and give their spouse and family the time to see the fruit of repentance, the fruit of new skills learned, the fruit of healthy relationships and changed attitudes. What we’re talking about is God doing a renovation. Sometimes it means tearing out the foundation, but you know what? 

That’s the beautiful thing. God is willing to go there. And I appreciate that. And actually, just as you were closing there, Ted, Psalm 23 came to my mind. Okay, the Lord is my shepherd, I shall not want. There’s a lot of want that wraps itself around this abuse situation. We want this, we want that, and then just a few verses in it says he restores my soul. 

And there’s such a restorative objective that God wants, and he is after our souls first and our marriage is second. Am I right on that? Or am I wrong? Okay. He wants to restore us personally and then wonderfully the restoration trickles out from there. Thank you, both of you, for addressing this very sensitive, very difficult topic to our listeners. 

We love you. We know that abuse is something we would prefer not be a part of our reality, but it is. And we just trust and pray that some of the concepts shared on these podcasts would inform your thinking on the matter, but really send you to the Scriptures and to the Word of God and to Christ himself. 

And so, thanks for being along. We trust it’s been helpful.