Leading in our Weakness Webinar

Well, greetings everyone. As Arlan said, my name’s Matt Kaufman. I’m very glad to be with you all. Tim and James, thank you especially for jumping on. You know, the title reads Leading in Our Weakness. It kind of assumes that we’re weak. It doesn’t leave any kind of room for this not applying to us, and I think that’s probably a good place to start.

We assume that we all carry flaws, brokenness, and weakness. And so, thanks Tim and James for being brave enough to talk about it. Not everybody would be willing to talk about it, but we all would be qualified to do so. So, thanks Tim and James for that. You know, as we look into this, a Scripture that probably comes to everybody’s mind is this calling of Moses. I’ll read the screen there, but it’s in Exodus 4 where it reads, and Moses said unto the Lord, oh my Lord, I am not eloquent, neither heretofore nor since thou hast spoken unto thy servant, but I am slow of speech and of a slow tongue. And the Lord said unto him, who made man’s mouth or who maketh the dumb or deaf or seeing or the blind? Have not I the Lord. Now therefore, go and I will be with thy mouth and teach thee what thou shalt say.

This famous encounter that Moses had with God on this element of weakness. And the question that comes to me with this, Tim and James, is when do you feel your weaknesses most pronounced? I think that’s a thoughtful question and I can answer it for myself, but I think for Moses, it clearly was at this point of calling where he saw himself in real vivid ways. And I think sometimes as we are called to minister God’s Word we are also faced with our own selves and look at ourselves in honest ways.

So, any thoughts on that feeling the weakness pronounced? I definitely feel it on Sunday mornings. And when my wife says, honey, can we visit? Then I feel those weaknesses, too. So, they’re there. I’m aware of most of them, I think, and for the most part I’m learning to embrace them, actually. I’m starting to embrace it, but I do feel it, especially when I have to proclaim the gospel. Who am I to speak about this when I have my own struggles?

Yeah. Thanks for that, James. And boy, I really want to dig into what you’ve alluded to with embracing them. Thanks for that. Tim, do any thoughts come to mind about feeling this pronounced? Yeah. So Matt, I did share with you a little earlier, but I hadn’t planned to share it tonight, but it just seems fitting.

I don’t know that I’m aware of all my weaknesses and periodically the Lord continues to make me aware of areas to look at. But I remember one of the first times I got up in front of the Peoria Church to speak. I was serving in Sunday school. I was supposed to get up and add on at the end of the service, and I broke into prayer because I just didn’t know what to say, I just got so nervous and concerned.

And when the request came to be called into the ministry, I will tell you that in those days we had answering machines, and I got the call on the answering machine from Brother Chuck, and I knew what it was about because we were talking about a minister in Peoria. I told Deb the minute I got the call; I can’t even speak.

And one of my very apparent weaknesses is my inability to read very well out loud. I don’t know if I have dyslexia or what, I’ve never been tested for it, but reading out loud is just very difficult for me. And in Sunday school as a little boy, I said, I can’t speak.

And Deb and I, for some reason, I don’t even know why, but we just opened the Scripture, and it fell to Jeremiah 1 and he says, do not say, I cannot speak. Do not say I’m a child. I will send you to whom I’ll send you. Do not be afraid of their faces. So, I don’t know if that happens with everybody, but it stuck with me because it was like the very words out of my mouth were right back at me out of Scripture.

And then, about five years later, I was asked to serve in the eldership, and that same Scripture opened up again. And I don’t know how the Lord did that, but I can just tell you that it’s been a bit of a milestone in my life to just be able to go back there when I’ve struggled or been fearful.

So yeah, somehow the Lord still uses those who are weak. And you can see here, even in Moses, it’s amazing how the Lord said, who made a man’s mouth? Something struck me, Tim, when you shared that you talked about learning your weaknesses. Would you say over time that you feel like you understand yourself better in that area of weaknesses in terms of being able to name weaknesses? Yeah. So Matt, I know many times we’ve learned through life that often our greatest strength is our greatest weakness, and our greatest weakness is our greatest strength.

And I always thought my strengths were my strengths, and you find out through time sometimes some of those things that you think you’re really strong at, maybe there are some pieces of that where you’re extremely weak, but you aren’t always cognizant of. So, yeah and just to understand that too, Tim, are you saying that sometimes weaknesses trail along some of our strengths?

So, there’s a shadow to them or an Achilles heel to some of the strengths that we have that we could be blind to. I think so. Brother James, what are your thoughts? Yeah, Tim, I’m beginning to wonder if it was the Arizona school system that messed us up, but reading out loud was a big struggle for me too.

So, I’m going to blame it on the school system that we grew up in. But yeah, that’s that same fear. I knew I could talk for 45 minutes. I was a salesman and that came pretty naturally, but reading out loud was one of my biggest fears and especially words that were longer than 10 letters would really mess me up.

So yeah, just to identify that same weakness was really heartwarming to me. Because I always feel like I’m the only one that has that trouble, that struggle. I figured in my own life, I have workarounds around it. I just read less over the pulpit to get through that.

And if I need to read more to fill up the time, then I can do that. But I just read enough to have a basis to start the message and then go from there. I appreciate those examples and just to notice that they have centered themselves upon public speaking, which comes as no surprise because that’s a common fear.

And so as we think about tonight’s topic. Thinking about the context of preaching certainly fits. But even to think about off the pulpit as well and the leadership we’re called to and called to shepherd. From pastoring people to leading the church, all of that would encompass what we’re talking about.

I think our weaknesses do come to us very vividly in all of those settings because when pushed upon, that’s often when we find them. Let me set a little bit up on what we’re going to look at here tonight. And I think it’s really going to be a conversation, much like what we’ve already started here, but I would like to maybe take a little bit of time to develop what we mean by weakness.

Give some categories for that. And then we’re going to look at the people God calls as being often flawed, weak people. Then we’ll look at Paul’s perspective on weakness. So, there’s a New Testament example. We’ll look at Jacob’s example. And he had a limp. And then finally Gideon, too.

So anyway, the Bible is full of examples where there’s no lack of that. So what we mean by some weaknesses, let’s give some categories because I think that might be helpful here tonight. All of these fit with what we mean by weaknesses, so inability. Some of the limitations I have, I think, I think Moses was speaking to a limitation when he had maybe a speech impediment or something that was just probably not going to be overcome in the sense of ever getting it to where he wanted it to be and what he thought it needed to be.

And so we all have that, call them inabilities, call them disabilities. They’re simply a part of our flawed nature. And some are gifted in ways that we are not able to do. So, we’ll call that limitation. This shadow part, my unsanctified part that God is working on, is what we’re going to call a shadow.

And that’s got a big wide span to maybe something that we struggle with temptation and failure. It could be that all the way to maybe some insecurities that we have that come out in unhealthy ways with people or with congregation. This shadow part, as we spend time with Jesus, he very much intends to work on but we do carry it with us and it is present with us.

That’s our shadow. That’s what I’m calling shadow. And then we have burdens, these life weights that we carry. It could be struggles with our children. It could be struggles with business. It could be struggles in our marriage. It could be financial; it could be health. Lots of burdens that we carry and those impact us.

How do these categories strike you? Tim? James? Okay with those? Yeah, I think they’re great. I think I have items in each one, Matt. Yeah, I think I do too. And I think that’s helpful because we do address them a little bit differently, but they all do have impact as we minister in all of the different ways that we do.

So let’s just go ahead and look. That’s our definition piece. This is a quote that I ran across by Dr. Dan Allen that I thought was very fitting. And it was quoted by Joni Eareckson Tada. Maybe some of our listeners would know who that is, but she’s a quadriplegic beautiful Christian woman who has served a large portion of her life in a wheelchair, serving and loving people with a disability. And so, she quotes him in some of her writings, but she says, the leaders God chooses are more broken than strong, more damaged than whole, more troubled than secure. The most effective leaders do not rise to power in spite of their weaknesses. They lead with power because of their weaknesses. That’s a strong statement right there. And so, I’m just curious, brothers, how does that hit you? And if you were to just throw some names out there in the Scriptures that might fit this bill, who would you think of?

I find great comfort in God’s Word, Old and New Testament, reading about the different patriarchs or characters in his Word, that did great and mighty things for God who had flaws similar to mine or even different than mine. You think of Moses or Abraham or David and even the Apostle Paul. The disciples struggled. Peter, even Barnabas struggled with some of his thoughts. I love it because I believe they did embrace their weaknesses but still were powerful for the kingdom, and they were able to identify them. So yeah, the word is loaded with men and women who struggled but overcame.

I want to seize on this one thing, Tim, that you alluded to. I kind of commented on it. James, you just said something about being able to identify them. How important is it that we are able to identify weaknesses and why?

I think Tim said that sometimes we don’t even know our own weaknesses at this point. You know, I’m 61 years old and I’m still discovering things. But I had four kids that would tell me my weaknesses, pretty readily, and that was helpful. But I think it’s important to identify them, seek them out, and Lord, show me where I’m weak and where I could do better.

I didn’t do that early on in my ministry or even in my life. I just went through thinking everything was probably okay until it wasn’t, until you hit a point where you realize that is a huge weakness that I have to figure out. So, I think just self-analysis and good friends, good community help with identifying them and recognizing them. Not in the spirit of gotcha, but in the spirit of encouragement.

I’m amazed, brothers how patient the Lord has been with me. One of the things we see in Scripture is God’s patience with David. We see his patience with Jonah and the struggle they went through. And we read those, and we see the end results. You know, we can read in a few chapters of the Bible we say, oh, it had a happy ending, or whatever.

But what you see is God’s patience in helping them to see how they need to be humble before him and to really. Cast themselves upon him. And yeah, you see that with Gideon’s struggle. And then Naomi and Ruth. Naomi’s given up, right? I mean, it’s over from her perspective, her sons are gone, her daughters-in-law. Why in the world would you stick with me? And you know, the Lord just uses unlikely people.

Tim, you mentioned humility. I have to think that is one of God’s prize attributes that he works in us through this matter. Do you agree with that? I think so. I think so. I think, Matt, in each one of our hearts, the Lord is so kind and yeah, he does really want us to cast our cares on him.

And he wants us to be strong in him and it’s amazing how he forms us to be strong in him. That’s when Jonah was strong. That’s when Moses was strong. That’s when David was strong. It is when they were standing on the Lord, on the rock.

Yeah. Tim, I want you to say a little bit more about what you’ve learned about humility as a leader. Just that last comment about strength in the Lord can be easily misconstrued or misunderstood with immaturity. I think I’m strong in the Lord, but really, I’m strong in my own brawn and brain. And I perceive you have learned what strength in the Lord really looks like. The value humility is in leadership is something we really don’t see outside the church.

Yeah. Well, I don’t know that I’m there, Matt. I mean, you see me many days and I carry pride as well. I would say part of it is the Lord’s been kind to me through the school of hard knocks, and I wasn’t a very willing student for a while.

But when you’re faced with things in church leadership that like the decisions beyond your ability or even the brokenness that you’re dealing with is beyond your understanding. And I had a great mentor. I was blessed to have our brother Willis Ehnle attend the Peoria Church.

And I remember him. I was very thankful to be able to spend some windshield time with him from time to time. And one time we were talking about some things he said. He would get to the point a lot of times where he would say, you are wrong and I’m wrong, but God’s right and he didn’t mean that to state that we’re nothing or that we’re bad or that we don’t have any wisdom.

The Lord has given us so much. We’re fearfully and wonderfully made, but we only know part of the picture. We see through a glass darkly. We do not have all knowledge. We do not have all wisdom and the Lord does. And I love it and I just share it this way.

One of the things I’ve been so humbled about serving in the Elder Body is that I have seen that we don’t always agree on things and have different views on things. We try to understand. We try to, but we get to things where we listen for the Spirit’s leading as a brother shares his view of a certain situation. And another brother shares his counsel on a situation. And the Spirit’s working in their hearts and in our minds. And as we come together, we can reason together about the Scriptures, we can reason together about points of wisdom to understand through God’s grace and I think if we can humble ourselves in those places to realize we have something to offer, but we don’t have, we don’t have the complete truth, if that makes any sense. Yeah, it does. Well, what I learned is that humility is the lubricant that allows leadership to really work together and lead in powerful ways.

I appreciate that. James, what are your thoughts on humility and what you’ve learned by way of weaknesses and humility? I’m going to take it a lower level. I’m not an elder, but in serving in the ministry, for sure, I do like this verse in James, humble yourselves in the sight of the Lord and he will lift you up. And I kind of struggled with the lift you up because it seems like that creates something prideful. You’re lifted up. But when I put it in the context of Jesus. The man who said he would be lifted up in, is it John chapter three? He needed to be lifted up to the cross. I found that lifting up in the spirit of humility is actually more approachable. And you take down some of the barriers that leadership creates.

Just the title of minister or elder, I think inherently creates barriers in people. Yeah. And if they see your spirit of humility or my spirit of humility, I think it equals that playing ground. There we’re more relatable. And that’s the lifting up that I see. It’s that lifting up to being vulnerable or being approachable. And I think humility is just a key aspect. And I don’t have this mastered and I did not have it mastered. As a matter of fact, my nature is very alpha.

And I have been told most of my life that I carry myself too confidently, even though I was struggling inside with various things I didn’t realize. The confident look was a mask that I wasn’t really aware of. And when I became aware of that, it really helped me to understand that humility is a great tool, especially in leadership. We’re actually serving our congregation. They’re not serving us. It’s so powerful, but such a journey to get there.

I Love that. And so, maybe to tie some of this together, has it been your experience James, that weaknesses have then by way of humility allowed you to be approachable and has allowed people to access Christ through you in ways that perhaps not before? Absolutely.

Matt, I’ll tell you a short two-minute story if you don’t mind. Or a confession, I guess, and just add context to what’s out there. Brothers and sisters listening, I struggled with alcohol. And I’m actually an alcoholic recovering praising God every day. And that became aware in my life, and it became aware of the congregation because I did go to a rehab facility to get help and through that journey it was very, very humbling. As a matter of fact, to the point where I didn’t even know if I’d come back to church after that journey. It was that humbling and through good therapy and good counsel, I’m here and enjoying my experience, but it was humbling.

But I did find, and still find even today, that humbling experience made me approachable to those who have needs for whom the ministry or eldership had been a barrier and I became approachable. Let’s say it that way. And it’s just God that does this, but humility does make us approachable. And I give you that story just to add context to perhaps my experience and where I am today.

Thank you. Thanks for that, James. You know, it rings with the pattern of Christ whose humble birth allowed everybody to enter the Shepherd’s fold and rest. And his humble death allows all of us to access.

And so, let’s look at what Paul says. Paul spoke to this idea of weaknesses very straightforward. We know this Scripture is so beautiful. 2 Corinthians 12, lest I should be exalted above measure, through the abundance of revelations, there was given to me a thorn in the flesh, the messenger of Satan to buffet me lest I should be exalted above measure. For this thing, I besought the Lord thrice that it might depart from me. And he said unto me, my grace is sufficient for thee, for my strength is made perfect in weakness. Most gladly therefore, will I rather glory in my infirmities that the power of Christ may rest upon me. Therefore, I take pleasure in infirmities in reproaches in necessities, in persecutions in distresses for Christ’s sake; for when I am weak, then am I strong.

Now that’s quite a treatise on weakness in leadership. Am I right about that? Yeah. I would love to hear your thoughts on the grace that is sufficient. What hope is there in Christ using our weaknesses as laid out here by Paul?

You know, Matt, when I read that and when you read it, the word grace is such a beautiful word to me because that is what enables us to get through our weaknesses, whatever they are. And one of the verses that I’ve hung onto desperately and anxiously is Hebrews 4:16 where it says, let us therefore come boldly to the throne of grace that we may obtain mercy and find grace to help in a time of need.

That’s just one verse. But one of the things that I find myself doing is that I need to go boldly to the throne of grace with my weakness because I do need help and I do need mercy. And he promises it to us. But if we’re not willing to go there in our own hearts, in our own minds, I think Paul said in Galatians 2, we frustrate his grace.

And you know, James, what comes to me too, as you share that example, is the congregation wants to know how we do these things? And we can explain or we can tell or we can teach how to cast one’s burdens upon Jesus. But to show a group of people how is quite another lesson. Yeah. Could that be part of how God uses weaknesses in leaders to demonstrate the how?

Exactly. You know, Matt, when I left rehab, the day I left rehab, they told me and my wife and my kids, because they were all there to pick me up. They said 92% of you will fail. That’s the statistic. And I was there with sex addicts, love addictions, body image issues, you name it, they were there. I just happened to be an alcoholic, that was my issue. And I hear from time to time, man, you must be so strong to be able to overcome. The witness and the truth are, I have to give God the glory for his grace. I can’t do it on my own. I tried for years. I tried. It’s God’s grace. And once you experience and know the power of it, then you have to talk about it. And you have to tell them they can do it. Many, many promises to those of us who overcome. Tim, whatever the weakness is, that just happens to be one of mine. I have many but that’s just the one that stands out.

Thanks, James. I think as you read these four verses, the maturity of Paul’s walk with the Lord is clear. He sees this thorn in the flesh as really a safeguard against pride. And as brother James said, humbling also creates empathy. You think Paul wouldn’t have been more empathetic towards someone who was dealing with what he was dealing with. Also, the Lord is refining Paul through this, and we can look at this and read these things, and we say, well, this is Paul, but how much of this is us as well?

How much of it is us living in God’s sufficient grace? His grace provides endurance that I’m going to just keep trusting the Lord. I go to him, and I pray, and I bring my burden to the Lord and leave it there. We sing that but can we bring it to the Lord? And the wrestling that we go through transforms our lives.

It’s there, and I think for leaders it is specifically important that the Lord continues to work with us and refine us and transform our lives into his image. And he’s doing it because Brother James is right. There can be a barrier between the church and the ministry and the eldership and things like that.

And we have to realize we’re all walking together. Some of us have different offices to fulfill, but the Lord is working us all into his image if we will allow him. He’s that good. And I guess as you read this, it was enough for Paul to say this is what his lot is and this is sufficient for the purpose of what the Lord asked him to do.

It’s interesting that it was a thorn in the flesh that he continued to carry, and I think we see that he carried it all of his life. I’m inspired in this idea of being a witness of the transforming work of Christ real time. I’m going to just start with my kids. I mean, the question comes to me when the two of you were speaking, do my kids see me changing into Christ’s likeness, which means I need to let them into the deep work of Christ in my life. Which now leads me to this question that actually came up as the participants joined. Some had an opportunity to type in a question, and this was a common one, and it talked about vulnerability, how to be vulnerable, when to be vulnerable.

Are there boundaries for being vulnerable? I think it’s an excellent question. Now, James, the matter you spoke of, I would guess, was full exposure and kind of without your management. And so there is that aspect to it, but I’m sure you’ve learned a lot about being vulnerable and what that looks like. Can you give us some boundaries there? How do we as leaders do this well? Because I’m guessing we could probably do it unwell also.

Yeah, and I’ve actually done both. I’ve done it well, and I’ve done it unwell or really bad actually. And I’ve learned, at least from my own experience, that I can talk vaguely, at least in my pulpit, if I’m preaching a sermon and something about drunkenness comes up or whatever, I handle that carefully. But I’m always aware or try to always be aware of who’s in the crowd. If I’m in a different church than Phoenix, or maybe a church that knows me well, a different church that knows me well, then I would model it maybe a little bit different.

But the principle’s the same as I think you have to be careful that you don’t give an excuse for people to say, well, I’m just going to continue, and God will save me. Look what happened to James. He’s given his testimony over the pulpit about alcohol or whatever struggle it happens to be, so I’m going to be okay. They can be okay, but there’s some pretty significant steps that have to be taken. And typically, the pulpit time isn’t a place to, to lay out all those steps or even appropriate place to lay out all those steps. So, I just would say, and I’ve done this early on after my recovery, is that the pulpit should not be therapeutic for you. It’s not a place where you go and just try to confess your faults and hope that everybody understands and because they don’t, well-meaning people will say things that are hurtful afterwards, and I’ve had that experience.

So, I think you have to be really careful on some of those sensitive issues and not create an excuse. Well, leadership has done this or is doing this, so it must be okay, and I’ll probably get through it. But just to the point that they recognize that you’re being truthful and honest, that you have difficulties or struggles, is the important thing to express in my opinion, Matt. I hope I answered that thoroughly, but I have done talks where I’ve gone and just talked about my struggle in different churches I’ve been invited to and that’s the appropriate place, in my opinion, to do it, but over the pulpit, you have to be fairly careful.

I appreciate that. And this idea that it not being therapeutic, I think does make sense to me. And sometimes, I know for me an indicator would be, is this too soon to talk about this type of thing. Yeah. Right. Is this one of those metrics that if it’s probably early, it might be therapeutic. If it’s marinated and worked through and in a healthy place, maybe some time as a metric. I don’t know.

Yeah. I can give you a quick example, Matt. Right after I got out of rehab, The youth camp Ignite was starting up. Actually, it’s this weekend. It was just getting started. And a good friend of mine who’s an organizer in that said, hey, will you come out and talk about your experience? I had only been out of rehab probably two months or a month, and I didn’t know what to do. So we’re at the family table eating dinner together. I have four kids and they’re all outspoken, to say the least.

And I said. Hey guys, I’ve been invited to go speak at Ignite. They want to hear my testimony of my journey. And one of my sons looked at me and said, Dad, why don’t you finish writing the book before you tell the story?

That’s good. And that hit me right between the eyes. He wasn’t ready for me to talk about it. He knew I wasn’t ready to talk about it. And that was really some of the most profound wisdom I’ve gotten. I just love him for being bold enough. He was 18 years old, I think at the time, and said why don’t you finish the book before you tell the story?

And in that advice, you recognize that there are other people to honor in your story. Your family, for example. You know, some of the categories of our struggles or weaknesses are burdens, and very often they imply other people and we need to be very respectful to everybody involved.

Tim, what are your thoughts on vulnerability in ministry? Anything that you wish to add to that? If not, we can move along. No. I think context is really important and Brother James spoke to that. It’s a little different what comes across the pulpit versus what would come in a smaller group discussion and how we would walk through that.

I think when it starts to become about us and not about what God has done, that’s a danger area because the Lord calls us to repentance. He calls us to humble ourselves and just really point the power to the Lord and what the Lord has done. You think of when a convert gives their testimony, they talk about how good the Lord has been to them and, and what he brought them out of or what, or how he’s been working in their lives. And I think the Lord has to be the focus, not the sin. Yeah, we had a chat come in, which I think we’re addressing. It talked about vulnerability. I’d like to extend the question, though, maybe to include some. Tim, I’m curious if it’s important that we walk in the light and I’m going to say walk in the light by walking in openness with people. Certainly we do that with God. And I’m curious what your advice would be on having people in your world enough for you to be real with weaknesses, burdens, shadows in abilities.

Is that a part of good practice and curious what your thoughts are about who that person is? And we’re not talking about the congregation across the board. We’re talking about other close brothers. I think it’s very important. Maybe I’m just weaker than most, I don’t know in some ways, but I think it’s very important for us to have other brothers. Specifically for the ministers and elders to have other brothers that we can just talk about life with. We all experience some pain along the way, or some failure along the way, and if we could just, you know, brush it under the rug and just keep going. Maybe, but I think it’s important to first bring your heart before the Lord and be there with him every day as you are, I’m sure.

But also, to have a brother or a couple brothers that you would see as your spiritual mentors or that you can speak to about some of the hard things and not let Satan put you in a corner. We talked about those different areas that Matt brought up. Trying to find those inabilities, shadows and burdens. Yeah. So, each one of those whether it’s inability for me to read out loud and many other inabilities.

But then also the struggle with temptation and sin and to be able to share that with a brother that you see as a spiritual mentor in your life. And many times, it may be the elder of the church or another minister or something like that, but I think it’s a really healthy place to be to walk in the light that way. I think the other place is maybe there are those burdens we carry. Maybe there are family situations or things like that. Maybe it’s hard to discuss within the family and maybe somebody that knows you, that has walked with you for a while.

And one of the things we know we’re thankful for in our church family is that most of us have known each other for a while in some form. And those that haven’t, you know, it’s important for us to get to know them as well. But I just would share that I do think it’s important for us to be able to share with one another. Yeah, I, I appreciate that. I think that’s well said. Tim, thank you.

Let’s look at this idea of leading with a limp. I love this passage because I think it’s like this has got to be a picture, right? And this is Jacob, Israel, right. He passed over Penuel. The sun rose upon him and he halted upon his thigh. I mean, this is like what a movie is made out of. You see this man, the crest of a hill, the sun is coming up and he’s leaning on this crutch. And this is the way he was seen by his children, the children of Israel.

In fact, you read in Hebrews that he, he blessed the sons of Joseph leaning on his staff. So, you kind of get a sense that this would’ve been the emblem. Like if there was a bumper sticker for Israel, maybe it was this man leaning on his staff. That would’ve been iconic. There’s something really powerful here. Now we know that to be the wrestling that he had with God and all of that. And so, my question here is. How do we hold our brokenness? How do we hold our flaws? This is how he held his and it meant something to the people that he was leading.

Thoughts. Yeah. So, Matt, it’s interesting that came out of his wrestling with God, right? I mean, and so many of the ones that James and I have talked about, even in Scripture, who the Lord had asked to lead or asked to do different things and there was wrestling with God.

The one thing that I have, and maybe this hits a little close to home, but lately my left knee has been giving me fits for the last six months, and I can’t imagine that Jacob walked a step without remembering his wrestling with the Lord. It was always there, and it had to have been continually. We call them Ebenezers. That’s something that he went back to and said, that was that time. And I find it interesting that his life was marked by that wrestling. That’s good.

James, any thoughts? You know what I thought about this verse, Matt, and the the thought I had is that I don’t think Jacob led with this limp. I mean, I don’t think he tried to make it very obvious. I think it was what it was, and it made me realize that we’re not afraid of it either. He knew what he had. He knew he was given a reminder, for lack of a better phrase. Matt, you probably would come up with a better phrase than that, but he was given a reminder of his journey and, that’s what I love about this thought is that it was a reminder, but it wasn’t what he led with.

He wasn’t afraid of it. He just kept on going on. And that’s what I see here. Don’t be afraid of your thighs, your limp, or whatever it is. But you don’t have to lead with it. Just recognize it’s not center. And I really appreciate that, James. I think that’s well said.

He didn’t lead with it but it was an artifact of his life that everybody could see. He did wear it openly. That’s interesting. Yeah. You know, we just have five minutes left. If anybody has a question they want to chat in, or you can unmute yourself too. If you have a question for Tim and James, you’re welcome to do that.

Just as some might be chatting something in, unless Arlan, maybe you’ve got something you want to share. You can jump in as well. But I’m going to somewhat land the plane on this idea that he uses weak men, but he also uses weak means. That’s what we have with Gideon, for sure. You know, he has to whittle this army down to like nothing, because God wasn’t going to have him win with a strength.

He’s going to have him win with weakness. It’s just another example that God is doing something with our flawed, fallen, broken being under the curse. Curious in some of your thoughts about seeing God’s glory through the weaknesses of ministry. I’m curious what jogs your minds there?

Matt, I don’t. Tim’s probably got a better analogy or story, but I’ll go back to just one of my experiences. I was in the ministry 18 years before I struggled with alcohol. And then afterwards I did step down before I went to rehab because I knew I was crashing, and it wasn’t right. There was sin.

And after that fact I came back to church, and I already said I struggled. I didn’t know if I would even come back because I was so humiliated. So much shame. But the question kept coming up. When are you getting back on the pulpit? And my response was never. I was done in my head, in my heart, in my mind. I didn’t have peace about it from God at all. But the encouragement continued to come that I would at least explore the thought. I don’t know if the pulpit is the weak means, or if I’m the weak means on the pulpit, Matt.

But God showed me and Gina, my wife, that’s what he wanted us to step back into. And I just want to encourage everyone that in spite of your weaknesses, grab onto God’s grace. Be an overcomer. You may be that weak means. The pulpit is an opportunity. And in spite of our struggles and who we are, glorify God with it. I don’t know. That’s what God told me to. Thanks James. Thank you. I don’t know if that’s what you’re looking for or not.

I’m not looking for anything. I just asked the question. Thank you, James. Yeah. One of the things, Matt, that you see here is the Lord stripped Gideon down to even taking away the swords. I’ve seen a number of Christian leaders, ministers or deacons or elders, however they serve in the church in that way. And other ways too, where there comes a time when sometimes they have to make a choice, and they get down to maybe they don’t even have the trumpets left and the Lord is working on them and taking them to the place. Where are you going to? And the Lord’s asking, are you going to trust me? Are you going to trust me without the trumpets? Are you going to trust me without the swords? And can you accept that I’ve given you a mouth with which to speak? Can you accept that I’ve given you this limp? Can you accept that I can use that? And I think he can.

I really appreciate that, Tim and James. Thank you for sharing tonight. I’ve been richly blessed by what’s been shared and I think we’re at the bottom of the hour. Thank you everyone for being on. We trust that this has also been a blessing to you, and I hope that you leave encouraged seeing Christ in the work with intention.

Isn’t that great? He doesn’t need perfection. He’s able to work with even the brokenness that we experience. So thank you each one. This will conclude our evening together.