Gender Expression & Gender Dysphoria Podcast Series

What I would encourage, you know, parents or even just adults as they’re sorting through this, to be able to, to affirm the biological sex that they have. And yet that biological sex can be expressed in lots of different ways.

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services.

Excellent to have you along as always. Craig Stickling, Brian Sutter with me today. Thanks for being along guys.

Glad to be here. Such an important topic. Today we’re going to talk about gender and you know, I just even mentioned that and everybody knows that this is a relevant topic and one that needs to be addressed.

And one that we’re really seeking answers, really seeking understanding and depending on one’s experience, it can be academic or ethereal, something that our understanding or posture to this particular topic about gender is really informed by the news and our culture and that type of thing.

And for others, it’s very, very personal. It’s in the family, it’s in our own experience and those types of things. So I’m so glad for both of you brothers to be here just to help provide some help, hope, some clarity. Yeah, no, I think it is one of those topics that is, there’s a lot of stirring around it.

And therefore, it’s important for us to be thoughtful about it and to recognize those different audiences that you’ve mentioned there and to begin to define some of these things and hopefully give ourselves some things to hold on to as we try to sort through some really complicated issues.

Good to look at. I just think of the verse there that talks about wise as serpents and harmless as doves and a topic like that requires a good blend of both and Jesus also being grace and truth. And so there’s a lot of opinions on this topic. So look forward to our conversation on this, Matt.

And really want to do it respectfully. And I know you brothers have that same heart too that we don’t intend to oversimplify this matter. Craig, I mean, you’re in the public schools, Craig, what are you seeing?

There’s nothing new under the sun, and I haven’t seen anything new, but you see things that come in that the students are trying to manage and relate and figure out, and this is certainly one of those things.

There’s a question of where do I fit in, and that’s a huge need of kids, isn’t it? Do I fit in? Am I part of this group? Am I part of that group? And this area has created another. group in that sense that kids are trying to figure out how do they fit in, which maybe wasn’t necessarily something that of our age to have to figure out, but it is today.

And it’s just another element. I see kids trying to figure out where do I fit in on this? That’s really interesting. So you’ve really expanded this to say, well, this is an age old matter that’s playing out in this particular issue. And the old age old matter is where do I belong? Who am I? How do I fit?

How should I relate to myself and others? Yeah. And you look at it just from a straight up, you know, adolescent mindset of, boy, do I like who I am right now? And I can look over and look at this person or that person or that table at the lunchroom or this group of kids and go, I think I would like to be there if I could.

And I don’t know this for, I would imagine one of the very first two categories a person does put themselves into is male or female. I’m just even thinking of my own children as they grow up. One of the first things is they realize that, Oh, I am a girl or, Oh, I am a boy. Brian, speak to gender, speak to what it is we’re talking about.

Yeah. I think it is one of those places where in many ways, in today’s world, we are given a lot more options than what we have historically. And I think this would certainly be one of those places where, a generation ago it was just boy or girl, and now all of a sudden there’s these other categories.

Okay. What does it mean? How do I define what it means to be a boy? How do I define what it means to be a girl? And historically that would have really been done from the body. And now culturally that’s shifting more into the mind and the emotion and the experience. And again, it just creates a lot more categories.

And then as you’re observing the lunchroom, like Craig just mentioned there, you start to say, well, where do I fit? And then they’re just trying to sort through all of those things. So one of the, one of the hopefully advantages we can bring out in this podcast is provide some definition.

All right. So one word is dysphoria. We hear that a lot. Gender dysphoria. All right. Either one of you take that word on, that term on, help us understand what it means. So gender dysphoria would really be a diagnosis. So in the counseling world, we operate from the DSM and that basically gives all the diagnoses that could be given in mental health disorder, anxiety, depression, all those sorts of

things would be in there. So one of those is called gender dysphoria. And basically what that means is there’s this confusion or this distress around their biological sex and what they would feel internally. So some they don’t experience any distress around, you know, being biologically male, but they would say they identify more with a female. So if there’s no distress, then you don’t actually fit that. But if there’s like, oh, no, there’s this mismatch and that creates distress, then that’s what’s called gender dysphoria. So if you hear that term, which I would say more and more, you hear that in the news or in articles and things like that, you would read.

That that’s what it’s referring to now. Even in your unpacking of that definition, you mentioned biological sex as well as I think experience. Yeah. All right. So I think probably some important delineation needs to be said with these two categories, right? Say a bit more about that.

So biologically, that would be like when we enter the world, you know, you’re going to show up with a body that’s either got male parts or female parts and you know, you’ve got the XX chromosomes or the XY chromosomes and those biologically define whether or not you’re a male or female and that’s how things have always been defined and now we’re moving into this space where there’s called gender identity. So that’s really more based on what you feel. Do you feel like you’re a male or a female? Do you experience things that you think are more consistent as a male or a female? So there’s the biological physical part element, and then there’s the experiential kind of emotional part. That’s more of the gender identity and what’s new on the scene, if you will.

So, Craig, you mentioned to the age old, Brian, you mentioned new on the scene. Yeah. Craig, speak a little bit to dysphoria. Is that something that’s been around forever and so what is the same and what is changing? I guess the question.

I would think that looking at yourself and feeling comfortable with who you are, even in the dynamics of my gender isn’t necessarily going to be something new.

I can think back even when I was a kid and certain kids that we were with. That’s cool. There are some that might be the old phrase of, Oh, she’s more of a tomboy or the boy that would just be, you know what, he just wasn’t in all the rough, tough sports, that type of stuff. He preferred just some other venues and avenues and those aren’t necessarily new.

I think just as we look in the lens now, there’s a lot more, as Brian said, there’s a lot more choice now that’s woven into this than what was before. And so now we’re trying to navigate all these other pieces of the puzzle that are adding to maybe the distress that would have just been an assumed one.

But now all of a sudden there’s a lot more to consider for kids. It’s almost the meaning we make of those experiences, which is a bit new on the scene. Kids come in with all sorts of different body types and personalities and, and expressions of how they process emotion and how they share.

And we come in with a beautiful mix, right? We’re all wonderfully and fearfully made and yet we also manage and deal with the imperfections of this human frame as well. And there’s so many different things that students and kids are bringing in. And just to watch that and just to see how that plays out and how there’s kind of a growing piece as well as as the maturity piece happens and to see where do I fit and where do I become comfortable with who I am and my nature and my temperament, my personality as well. In every nucleus of our body, we have got XX chromosomes if we’re female or XY chromosome in terms of a naming in every cell of our body.

So that’s what you mean biological sex plays itself out in our physical body. But I get a sense you’re using gender differently. And I think that’s one of the nuances, I think, as well, that is changing. Words change. Right. Meanings change. Sure. Speak to gender. How is that being used today and how should we understand it?

Well, I think at large in society, gender is really being expressed, related to what you prefer and how that gets expressed based on your preferences. And then therefore, your gender becomes more in line with what your preferences are versus what you are biologically. And could we say even beyond preferences, there are felt experiences, right?

Very deeply felt like they’re not like peripheral things for some, at least like very deeply felt experiences and emotions and draws to get pulled a certain way. For some that’s very, very real. Yes. Certainly God has a lot to say about gender, and we’d like to perhaps find some grounding, perhaps some anchor points there.

We may start with this basic understanding, rightfully so, the Scriptures tell us that in the beginning God created humans, He created them male and female, so there is a created difference there. Yeah, I referenced it earlier, just that Psalm 139 piece of being wonderfully and fearfully made, and pausing in just the, the simple…

And that God has created each and every one of us and each life, each person, each creation of life is a great gift and that he has made us with a certain way and he’s made us specifically and to be able to rest in that and to be able to trust in that as a starting place. Well, you mentioned there Genesis chapter one and

two in creation where it would seem that God does a lot of his creative work is through division.

He divided. The night from the light from the darkness, he divided the firmament from the earth, he divided these things and we see another division in male and female creating this division which worked.

Yeah. And I think in that division, it’s actually bringing order to what otherwise is chaotic. And, so I think sometimes in that where we bring clarity and categories, it can be quite helpful and is a beautiful thing now and again. I think one of the things we have to be careful with is making those categories more narrow than what the Lord has. But in many ways, those categories can be quite expansive, but there’s a beautiful freedom in some guardrails in those categories. Well, can we say that the categories that you’re espousing here are narrow in the sense of being male or female, but the categories of expression might be wider.

Oh, I think that’s really well said that you can live out what it means to be male and it can look very different for one that might be planting a garden and flowers and for somebody else that might be being out in the woods and hunting and the ways that is expressed is very vast.

While there’s not a spectrum of being created male or female, there is a spectrum of expression of the biological sex God has given me.

Oh, I think so. Say a little bit more about what you mean by that and why that’s important today to understand. Well, I think it is like if we have too narrow of categories, I think what we do is we accidentally force people to say, Because I have this interest or this desire, therefore that means something about my sex that actually is more about their expression.

And so, for example, we can have fairly strict, gender roles, like this is what males do, this is what females do, and certainly I think there’s a place for that. I think the Scriptures do that, but I think there’s not nearly as much of that as what we might, nowhere in there does it say who takes out the garbage or who’s in charge of cooking? And those sorts of things. And to be able to allow that for there to be freedom and not to too narrowly define that in a way that actually is really harmful for folks. Craig, this is what you were speaking to.

Yeah. I love just the idea of we’re created with such interest and talents and abilities. And to be able to have that freedom of expression, to be able to recognize that someone might prefer to do more of this or someone might prefer

to do more of that. Yeah. Now, you’ve inspired me, Craig, to think about my expression of my maleness as a unique expression.

Certainly there are some stereotypes I fit with malehood, but there are some that I do not. But that doesn’t necessarily jeopardize my manhood, and I need to understand that, based on what you’re saying there, Craig. Yeah. And, you know, we can say that, wow, as a mature, healthy male, that you have a good balance of that, right?

We look at some who maybe they’re struggling with that bounce or maybe they’re struggling with stability or maybe they’re struggling with, oh, am I loved and that sense either through God or through the people in my home or my family and there’s that uncertainty and that struggle that’s there and what that does to being able to understand, hey, this is what I like to do.

And that that can be okay to do those certain things, right? And just, Brian, you mentioned the chaos of that earlier. And sometimes in the chaos, that just creates a whole new level of frustration and struggle that I think was probably always there. But now our culture has given us a different lens of what to be confused or struggle or challenge with.

Or how to make the meaning that we’re trying to make. And I’d like to, Brian, go back to what you had mentioned about where gender roles and where they come from. You mentioned, who’s cooking and who’s taking out the trash is not biblical, but they are gender roles at some level. Sure. So where do gender roles come from?

How should we be thinking about these scripts? Yeah. That we live our gender out. Yeah, and I think that’s one of the big debates that’s maybe underneath all of this. Some would say that those really kind of come from social pressures, and if you remove the social pressures, then all of those things disappear.

A lot of the research that would actually be in European countries that are a little further out in front of us on this are actually saying, in cultures where they’ve tried to remove some of those cultural pressures, they actually see more of these things show up more consistently, which is really fascinating.

And if that’s true, then what it’s telling us, there’s actually something innate in us that kind of moves us towards certain preferences. And I think that’s important to acknowledge while at the same time recognizing if you, if you line up a hundred men, you know what, you may have 60% of them that have this natural tendency, but there’s still the 40% that aren’t going to.

And if you have a hundred of those different categories, you’re going to fall in the 60% on some and the 40% on the other. And, so just like to not be fearful of that, but also to recognize, yeah, there is maybe a norm here. And you’re going to fall in the norm with some and outside of the norm with others.

I think from a Christian worldview, we would certainly say that some of these natural tendencies come from somewhere. And the fact that we’ve been created by a Creator, and he’s put some of those norms within the different genders. And to be able to see that as a beautiful thing, while we also have compassion towards those that maybe struggle with this, like, well where do I fit in this? And we all kind of have this hunger of like, am I normal? And if you look at yourself on a certain spectrum and you find yourself in the minority, how do you sort through that and make sense of it? You’re really calling the community up here because we’re somewhat stewards as a community, as a culture, aren’t we, of what it means to be a man and what it means to be a woman.

And if we’re wrong on that, that is the margin of really a lot of harm in people’s lives. Especially as you speak into someone’s identity. Being referred to only by one marker. And that being something that’s, if that’s all I am, I’m trying to evaluate where I’m at, but it seems like the only one I’m ever evaluated by is this one thing.

And so now what is it, what do I do with these other markers that come into my life or my opportunities or even as I grow and I see things differently? So I think maybe what you’re suggesting there, Craig is to help people see themselves more holistically to evaluate all things on one marker. I’d probably have a larger perspective of my gender expression, thumbprint to say like that.

And I think for us even to recognize in each of our cultures, whether that’s our small family culture or our community culture or our church culture or our state and so on. And so, as you keep going out, that each culture is going to have things that are going to say, hey, this is what it means to be a man, or this is what it means to be a female and to recognize what those are and also to be careful.

And to speak into those that maybe you’re like, wait a second, what’s that mean about me? Cuz I don’t align with that, but that doesn’t mean that you don’t fit into this category. This gender category. I’m just thinking right now of my grandkids and just watching them go through, you know, my little three year old grandson.

I mean, it’s like he wants one thing and that is trucks. I mean, every Christmas gift, every birthday gift, you give him a truck. Or tool and it is like, you’ve given him keys to the world and that’s all he wants to do. That’s all he wants to play

with, and then I get to see my granddaughter who only at a year and a half she is focused on babies and she’s looking for the baby and she takes that little baby and she holds that baby and she is, no one is telling her or talking to her, but there’s an interesting piece of just observing that part of who we are, but also knowing that that’s not all they are either.

Well, Brian, I would like to have you respond to this then. So Craig has another grandchild, or I’ve got a child. A boy who doesn’t want to play with the trucks. Should I be switching out his toys with the trucks? Should I be putting down his paintbrush and giving him a bow and arrow?

Should I be discouraging his love for music and pushing him towards sports? These are the decisions that parents make, especially in an environment where like oh, no. Right? And I think that’s really where a lot of this, the rubber meets the road, and parenting. And the reality is that there’s many that are going to experience that.

I can’t tell you the statistics right off hand, but I think what the research and even those that work in the space a lot, they would say, if we can come alongside them and help bring meaning to those things that are helpful, not necessarily say, this is how you have to be as a little boy, or this is how you have to be as a little girl, but to notice those things and come alongside, put right meaning to them, help coach them.

The vast majority by the time they get into their teens, those things are going to shift by themselves. But if we get locked into this really intense battle and say, no, you can’t paint or you can’t like flowers or, whatever those things are, then a lot of times it turns into a bigger battleground and has more harm than value.

Well, you’ve triggered my thoughts for a couple of things, but one, I get a sense that you’re saying that a person’s gender comfort right now, I’m making up terms here, a person’s gender comfort ebbs and flows over time. I get a sense that that’s true based on what you just said. Is it? Yeah. I think that’s important.

I think, we as parents need to understand that, that, oh, they might feel this way when they’re 10 or when they’re 12, but a lot of things are happening in their body hormone wise. And I think there’s a couple of things on both sides of the coin that I think are important there.

One is those of us that are really fearful of like, oh no, I need to make sure that my little boy grows into a man like for us to take a deep breath to be patient to walk beside them and and teach them and train them. That would be one side of the coin. I think the other side of the coin is those that want to embrace this.

Oh, you’ve got dysphoria around it, therefore, let’s look to the mind and the emotion to define your gender and then live that out. I mean, I just listened here recently to some adults who did transition at a young age and they had surgeries and all of these sorts of things and to make those kinds of decisions when you’re 10 years old, it’s just, I mean, and then to regret it, right? Some of that shifts then as they age and mature and some of that changes. Just so painful to hear some on the other side of that. And so I think it’s both on both sides of the coin to think about. What I would encourage parents or even just adults as they’re sorting through this, to be able to affirm the biological sex that they have.

And yet that biological sex can be expressed in lots of different ways. And, that that’s okay. I think sometimes we would see expression as just like something that we can change automatically. And I don’t think that’s really the way it works in many ways. God’s knit us together. We have different preferences and that that’s part of that expression to make space for that, but also to do so in the guardrails that the Scriptures give us, whether that’s for us personally or as we walk besides others, I think would be something to think about. I think I found, too, just coming back to the ability to communicate and to create with our kid, with our child, the ability to share into some of these things and to think about a young person to be able to say, oh, I’m not going to go home and tell mom and dad that somebody at school or we read or we saw a clip online about this gender, you know, That’s the thing that happened or this celebration or expression that was outside of what we’re normal to and to be able to create that communication with our kid that it is okay to talk about that.

It is okay for them to share their questions or thoughts on that. And we have to set that up. I believe that as mom and dads. We have to build that, we want to be able to speak into, be part of that conversation with our kids and to create that environment that they can speak about those things.

I really appreciate both of you brothers sharing on this. It’s a hugely important topic and we haven’t nearly been exhaustive and there’s a lot left unsaid and hopefully we’ll have more opportunity to say more, to speak into this space. So thanks to each of you and to our listeners, just know that, man, these are challenging days that we live in, aren’t they?

And they really do cause us to think carefully, to think critically, to what is the Word saying? What is God’s intention? But there was a level of peace that came to me through this conversation, and that is to be able to celebrate God’s gift that’s been printed in all of ourselves of our gender, of our biological sex, but yet at the same time celebrating that biological sex in unique, beautiful ways, which we would call our gender expression, right?

And to do that to God’s glory, I think is his intention with male and female created he them. So, thanks.

And, therefore there is a right and wrong in that too, that it describes a broken world and that we as God’s people created in his image are meant to bring his kingdom into that broken world and to represent him well.

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Wonderful to have you along as always. I’ve got joining with me here in the studio is Brian Sutter. I’m Matt. Brian, we’re going to continue our conversation on gender. I’m looking forward to it. So, we’ve chatted on past podcasts, you and Craig. And, in those presentations, we really talked about the felt experience of gender and of expression and the responsibility that the community has to somewhat steward gender roles and how impactful those gender roles are and how this is something that people are feeling very nearly in their families and in their own experience.

But we know that this topic also lives in a world of ethereal bantering. Okay. Let me explain what I mean by that. The clash of world views, culture wars, very heated policy politics. It’s everywhere. And I felt like it more important and firstly important to address what we addressed previously, but this is very important as well to address. And so, we’re going to take this higher elevation maybe today to talk about the clashing of these views. And so, we have a lot of posturing and a lot of digging in our heels and perhaps some argumentation, which isn’t helpful. Right. So, how’s that for a set up? Do you know where I’m going with this a little bit? How can we maybe take a step back and view this topic of gender in a way that maybe we can hear each other?

Yeah. Well, I think one of the things that comes to mind related to what you’re talking about is I think it can be really important to just know the audience and the lens through which we are thinking. So last time, I think, at least in my view, we thought about the individual and how do we engage that individual in a thoughtful way that makes space for that gender expression can look a lot of different ways while we would say gender.

There’s not a spectrum of gender, but there is an expression there. And how do you engage the individual in those realities? And now, as we step back and think about just the culture as a whole, in the midst of some things that are like, wait, what’s going on? And how did we get here? And what does this look like? Like what our posture should be? Both internally, but then too, as we start to engage with information, whether that’s in the news or social media, and then how that impacts as we engage individuals in the community. Keeping up with matters such as gender and the culture on this type of issue, which is ever changing, does require some reading on our part and some even training.

And we’ve benefited from books and literature from Joe Dallas to Preston Sprinkle to Sam Alberry, and also Mark Yarhouse. These are names among others that we as an agency have found value in. Brian, I want you to share some of the work that Mark Yarhouse has done in really helping really the Christian church understand that we come to these matters with a lens and based on how we view and the lens that we have. It does color what it is we see, and it’s important for us to understand the lens that we have. Help our listeners understand that. I think it can be a powerful tool.

Yeah, I would agree on it. And I think it’s like any other topic. A lot of times we think we’re coming at it in a very objective way, but the reality is that our experiences, our personal experiences really shape how we view things.

And that’s, I think, where even reading different authors that have different perspectives can be quite helpful. But Yarhouse, in particular, one of the things that he outlines that I think is really helpful is that there’s three, maybe, different primary lenses you could put individuals in, including ourselves, as you think about a topic such as gender.

One of those would be the integrity lens and then the second, we can go back and kind of talk through these. The second would then be the disability lens. And then the third would be what he calls the diversity lens. Okay. And so these lenses are kind of our posture towards our culture. And we’re going to talk about gender because these lenses certainly pertain to this matter at hand, but they’re really more expansive than that.

Right. These are the lenses that we take as we engage with our culture and what we see going on. Yep, exactly. And in particular, you know, in this topic of gender, I think it just is really helpful to know what are some of the starting assumptions for yourself and maybe even the things that you could assume are the starting assumptions for somebody else that you’re interacting with.

So, I think these lenses, you know, I do, I want you to unpack these lenses because I think they’re going to strike very near to our experience. Like, oh yeah, that makes sense. Yeah, I think probably we’ll be able to identify. Yeah, that’s it. That’s the lens that I carry or there is a spectrum and I have a little mix of them.

So, you’ve mentioned integrity lens, speak to the integrity lens. What does it mean to have on an integrity lens? So the integrity lens, I think the way that Yarhouse would describe it is really, well, this is my summary of how I would view it, is that I would say it’s when you primarily focus on Genesis 1 and 2, and you think of God’s creation and God creating them male and female, and there’s that focus of this is how it was originally designed, and there’s the different genders, you see it right there, and it zeroes in on Genesis 1 and 2.

Would you say maybe truth and error is really key to the integrity lens. Yeah. That it is like, okay, this is what is true. And we’ve gotta get back to pursuing the original design and the original creation and how God created them. And there’s a real heavy emphasis on truth and pursuing, moving back into engaging life and gender in particular in a way that’s like reflects Genesis 1 and 2, And so as we engage with the culture, engage with what it is we’re seeing, our brains are firing with that’s right or no, that’s wrong. Or that type of thinking. Exactly. Which seems important. Yeah, very important. And so all of these, I think you’re going to say, okay, there’s some pieces of this that’s really important. And if you hear each of them in isolation, you might just say, well, yeah, of course.

But then as you kind of think about putting them next to each other and the strengths and weaknesses, then it’s like, oh, okay, I didn’t really, you know, and it gets a little bit more nuanced. So then if we move into the disability lens, I would say the disability lens really then zeroes in on Genesis 3 and the fall that where Adam and Eve, they sin and from there, then corruption enters and there’s all of this brokenness and it highlights, okay, yeah, there is this design and now it’s been corrupted and how do we help join people, if you will, in the midst of the brokenness and walk in the midst of the brokenness well.

And so, a person who really operates through this lens is really thoughtful about reasons. Oh, this is the reason why, or perhaps there is an explanation for the brokenness that I see through that Genesis 3 lens. Yeah, and I think in that puts them in a posture a little bit more of compassion and coming alongside and not like, how do we get this to change necessarily? As much as like, how do I walk beside them and help them live in a faithful way, even in the midst of the thing that’s underneath that maybe won’t change.

Okay. So, I perceive just by that, I perceive that there’s going to be pros and cons to these lenses, right? There’s going to be strengths and weaknesses, and that’s why it’s so important to know what lens we carry. What lens are we looking through so that I can counterbalance that appropriately? Right. And so that, and then you can kind of see the strengths of somebody else where they’re coming from and where you can join them. And then maybe like, huh, have you thought about this? That’s maybe more of a challenge that draws on a strength of another lens.

Sure. So then if we move into the lab, the third lens, the diversity lens, that would be the lens I would say it kind of focuses on God is love, if you will, and it’s just like, okay, all of this diversity and how do we just accept people, embrace people and just love and care for them? And that’s really the primary goal.

Love should win the end of the day, right? And so, this matter of really embracing. Yeah. It would come out of that lens. And again, in isolation, we’re like, oh, absolutely. And you can see how that is. And I think in many ways, that’s where the culture is at large. They’re not thinking of it necessarily through like God is love and a biblical kind of love. But that’s the primary lens that we live in and the culture is in, and when we come in and we’re pushing the integrity lens or the disability lens and they’re like, wait, why do we even need to do that? Let’s just… Focus on love, let’s just focus on acceptance, like it makes sense that there’s a really strong clash.

Well, the first lesson I even learned from that is all of these lenses can be with or without faith. Sure. Absolutely. And so, the first call for believers is to have a lens via faith. So, if we’re going to have that integrity lens, let it be on the Bible, and let it be through the faith of God, and I think of the second one of brokenness. Let it be through the framework of a fallen world, and through the narrative of the Bible, and then certainly that last one, let it be through the love of God. Right. Exactly. But now let’s help tease them out a little bit, Brian, with maybe the weaknesses, Brian.

Yeah. So, I think if we just start with the diversity lens and kind of work our way back, I think the weakness there is that it’s really hard to stay tethered to faith. It’s really easy for that to just move away from, there’s any truth, there’s anything that needs to be corrected and just into defining love however you’d like, defining how to live life and, and whatever kind of fits best as far as our feelings and it’s really hard left to itself to not just kind of get lost in everything becomes very relative. The Bible becomes interpreted by circumstances as opposed to circumstances being interpreted by Bible. Yes. Things start to get interpreted through emotional lenses and all of these other things and devoid from the Scriptures and what the Scriptures would say. And we start to then rewrite what it is that God intended.

Yeah. Okay, so we can see the weakness there. Yeah. Let’s go to that brokenness. So, with the disability lens, I think some of the things that we would be good to just wave caution to there would be that it can be really easy then through the disability lens to start to see people according to the difficulties or the things that they carry that are challenging and only seeing them as things that are broken.

So, their brokenness defines them. Exactly. That becomes who they are, how we would see them. And in some ways then I think that puts us in a position where it’s like life is on hold until this thing gets cleared up versus like being able to help them where they’re at.

That’s interesting. And, you definitely get a sense of that. We have got so many, so many ways to color our problems, right? That we become defined by those problems. This is who I am. This is who you are. And this is my, and while that provides some sort of benefit. If it is getting help, but at some level, we begin defining ourselves by these matters, don’t we?

And then that gets really discouraging. And I think for all of us, we would recognize, we look in the mirror and we see a lot of things that are broken. And if we just see that it gets discouraging and the importance of being able to see things in a broader lens. That’s helpful. So, the integrity lens.

So I think one of the, or some of the weaknesses or things that we maybe would think about with the integrity lens is, certainly if you’re coming at it from that lens, I think it can come across really cold and distant that you lose sight of this as a person that’s been created in the image of God and you’re just focused on truth and kind of hitting that really hard versus like seeing them as an individual and interacting with them as an individual.

Does output become more important than people? It seems like that’s an easy or that’s a potential downfall that it just comes about like, how do I get this to happen or stop happening? Yes. Yeah. And so, perhaps that empathy is lost. Yeah. That can be one of the challenges there. I think another thing that comes in, and you see this really, I would say, if you pay attention to the news and the things that are said, and again, I don’t know that these would be the things that need to direct how we do life, but I think it’s at least important to give it pause and think, like, how does the world or society view the church?

And in some ways, especially when it comes to these kinds of topics, they see the church as being very judgmental and unloving and uncaring. And then certainly that’s going to be part of what comes when we are speaking truth and sharing what we believe is right and good according to the Scripture. So I don’t, think that we want to avoid that criticism, but I think it would be wise to say, wait a second, are we as a church coming across in a way that automatically it pits us against some that we are called to love and care about and enjoy, not in a way that compromises truth, but also in a way that’s like, hey, we care about you, that we would share the truth, not because we just, you know, demand that we’re right, but because we care about your souls.

I think this provides good teaching. And a number of levels one for that, aha, that, you know what, this is my posture and this is the lens. How do I live it well, and how do I learn from these other lenses? But it also helps us understand others too. Yeah. I would be interested to know, and I think I could probably make a guess if you were to look at the generations, for example.

I think we would see some differences, right? And that’s right inside our families, right inside our churches, that we’re all going to be seeing this matter from a different lens. And that’s probably going to be the motivation of how we speak about it and how our discussions go, right?

Yeah. And I think that can be just a powerful thing to know that, to hold onto that. And then we start to see them again. as individuals that we’re talking to rather than, you know, this generation, they think this or that. And we start to start to label each other, even within the church versus like, Oh, okay, I can kind of see maybe this is where they’re highlighting. This is the strength of that. This is the weakness of that. And that I think would help us to learn from each other. And so, then if you could wrap all of this together. Supposing then we had these three lenses all we suppose we would exercise these three lenses well, paint a picture for what that might look like.

Well, I think, Matt, it would just be grounded in faith of the God of the Bible, that the Scriptures, what they share, what they articulate is true and good. And therefore there is a right and wrong and that in that too, that it describes a broken world and that we as God’s people created in his image are meant to bring his kingdom into that broken world and to represent him well.

And, sometimes that means interacting in really messy situations in a way that’s full of God’s love and care and compassion while speaking the truth. And it’s kind of the thing that comes to mind is that Christ came, the fullness of grace and truth. And what does that look like? And how do we live that out?

Now, again, that gets really hard as we do day to day life. And it’s not just a concept that we’re talking about, but it’s like an individual or group of individuals were thinking about, how do I hold on to what’s true, recognize there is brokenness, and love them well? That is really hard, but a wonderful, beautiful picture to try to engage.

And beautifully summed up in the person of Christ. Oh, right. Don’t we? We see him not compromising standard and yet, interesting enough, raising standard. And yet, engaging in the brokenness, inviting the repentance and contriteness, and just loving people through it all. And I think in that too, he gets criticized on almost every front.

You know, and so I think, too, that to recognize, I don’t think that is our goal by any stretch of the imagination, but to try to engage this, to engage it well in a way that reflects how he did it is likely to bring criticism. And in that criticism, we would say we certainly need to be thoughtful and open to boy, I’m probably not exactly where I need to be here and movement.

Yeah, I really appreciate that, that doing this well doesn’t mean that we’re not going to come under fire, but doing this well means we’ll come under fire for the right reasons, right? And I think that’s important. You know, I think we entered this is talking about gender and we haven’t ever really mentioned gender because this really applies to lots of matters that we’re dealing with in our world today, aren’t we?

There’s brokenness abounds and there are messy situations that we’re always seeing and that are coming forward. So, I think that’s fine. You know, these are three lenses with good points and bad points, and Jesus lived them all perfectly, and we can aspire to do the same. Thanks, Brian, for sharing. My pleasure.

Thank you.