Shedding Hurt Podcast Episodes

Welcome to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Ted Witzig, Jr. is with me today. Hi, Ted. Hi, Matt. Ted, I have heard you say that if you were given a chance to share something to the church from your experience as a clinician, one of those primary topics would be how one sheds hurt. 

Did I hear you right? That is correct. As far as skills go, there’s no question that dealing with hurt and moving on from it is one of those things that everybody has to learn how to do, but very, very few people know how to do it well. Right, there’s a great deal of optimism. Okay, Ted, because what you’re saying is there is something to be taught in this area. 

Definitely. Our cooperation with God in working through things can make the difference between decades of bitterness or going through a hard time and then moving on. And that’s a tremendous amount of freedom to think about that, to reflect on my own life. Okay, what am I hurting with? And can I imagine that hurt not there? 

Yeah, and you know what? There are many circumstances, a family that has an argument about a family business or a family farm. Okay. An argument, a harsh word spoken between a father and a son, even the disappointments that happen of wanting something to occur. Maybe in your church you are trying to help. Maybe you’re on a committee and you want something, you have good intentions and then it’s given a thumbs down, not a thumbs up. 

Those kinds of things can easily be like a splinter under the skin that is infected. And even if it’s there for a long time, it just kind of radiates pain. I think the examples you’ve given have resonated. It’s like, oh, okay, I can see where hurt comes in. People are hurt for many reasons. 

That’s correct. We all have a different threshold on what it means to be hurt. Let’s talk about some of those ways that we’re hurt. Yeah. And so sometimes hurt comes because somebody has actually done something directly to you that has been hurtful. That can be through harsh statements like you’ll never amount to anything. 

The flip side hurts can come when somebody should do something, and they don’t. Like when somebody should say something kind or loving and they don’t. So, we have where we might use the word offense, right? We can be offended, and we need to perhaps define that term, what we mean by offense, but I’m saying offense is being sinned against, right? 

That’s right. And what we’re talking about there is when somebody experiences an injury because of somebody else’s actions or inactions, which is different than when somebody has a different opinion than I do. Some hurt comes just from disappointment. It does. I have an expectation for something and I’m holding onto that expectation. 

And then there comes a point in time when I have to reconcile that that’s not going to happen. And then what does that mean about me or my family or whatever? And then we walk through hurt that way. Exactly. That can be a loss of a job. It could be somebody is expecting to get a sale and then that customer goes and buys something from the person down the road. 

And those kinds of things cause hurt when that is personalized. Okay, and then come the particular motives for why it happened. That person didn’t like me. They thought it was no good. Those kinds of things go in as hurts and disappointments and then they can revolve in somebody’s mind for decades. 

Well, see what’s interesting here, Ted is really what you are setting up here today in this discussion is that there are tools to deal with that hurt. There is a proper way to take that hurt and process it because I think one tendency and there’s maybe more you can tell me, but there is a tendency that’s like, okay I’ve been hurt, I just need to get over it and maybe not think about it or sweep it under the rug or stuff it simply because I don’t know what to do with it. That’s right and maybe it will go away by time or something like that. Yes. And, you know, one of those very well-worn statements, like time heals all wounds, you know, things like that, which, by the way, I have not found to not be true. 

But rather that time plus healing plus maturity and God’s work can do a lot of things, but time itself does not. No. All these tools that you’re suggesting today work out in time, but time is not the tool all by itself. That’s right. I’m going to ask this question. Is it always necessary for me to approach that person and say, listen, I’ve been hurt? Are they a part of the solution or is this a prayer closet thing?  

That’s a great question. And the answer is sometimes either one or both. So, a couple of things. In situations where you have the opportunity to work things through with another person, I think in an ideal world, if I hurt you and there was something there between us and you walked into my office and said, Ted, you know that conversation we had, I’m struggling with that. 

Can we talk through that? That would be great to be able to bring that full circle in there. Sometimes we have to go through the process of shedding and releasing the hurt when the other person either doesn’t acknowledge it or doesn’t want to own it. Or, and I would say this is also a category too, sometimes we have to release hurt for someone who is no longer in our lives, maybe when they have passed on.  

Ted, what are some effects that hurts have on a person? What are some indicators? Because I’m going to suggest Ted, perhaps we don’t even know when we’re hurt. You know what I mean? I don’t know when I have strep throat until certain symptoms are there. And what are some of the symptoms that might indicate that you’re hurt? Yes. It is interesting because sometimes people can really identify the hurt and being able to say, oh yes, I’ve been injured by this. Other times, there are things that cover that hurt. And one of the most common is anger. And because that anger rises up and is an activating emotion that says, hey, that’s wrong. 

And then we focus on the actions and/or lack of action of another person. What ends up happening there is our focus is on the person that we perceive has done wrong to us. And in fact, that anger helps to cover up or shield us from the hurt that’s underneath it. And so, on accident we can get so focused on the other person that we don’t actually realize that we’ve sustained a wound. 

We use anger as an outcome of hurt, but really it boxes that hurt in. It does not allow that wound to heal and get the correct ointment. Yes. So, we need to handle this concept of anger. Let’s spend some time doing that. Walk us through anger. Is anger always wrong? Start at Anger 101 here. 

Yeah. So, first of all, anger is an emotion, a human emotion, but it also is something that reflects the nature and character of God. The interesting thing is God always handles it well. Okay. And always does it perfectly. But as human beings, it’s important to note that anger itself, when the Bible says, be angry and sin not in Ephesians, it’s highlighting that there’s a way to have an emotion, but there’s also what you do as the natural outgrowth or the expression of that emotion. 

Some people suppress anger, and they hold it inside and bottle it up. And that may actually look a little bit more Christian. Unfortunately, bottling that up can also lead to bitterness which isn’t at all Christian. The other side is being rightly angry about something but then turning around and acting in a way that isn’t healthy or godly, that’s wrong. 

So, what we’re talking about here is being able to understand that the emotion of anger is one thing, what we do with it is another. Anger, also, we often refer to as a secondary emotion, meaning that something else starts it off. Feeling disregarded, or unheard, hurt, embarrassed, whatever, forgotten, frustrated. I’m not able to get through something and something doesn’t turn out the way I want. Frustration. Fear. Okay? Fear is an activator for anger. Physical pain. And then the last one being righteous indignation. The challenge of anger is to be angry at the right time at the right magnitude. Exactly. That’s what Jesus did. That’s exactly right. And then carrying that out.  

So, let’s go back to, we’re hurt. Okay. And that hurt causes us to resort to anger. Walk us through the releasing of that anger. Yeah. So, one of the first things that happens after we’re hurt and have anger, we tend to ruminate. That means playing the scene over and over and over in our heads. And it’s very normal and natural that when we have a shock to our system, we play it over. Unfortunately, one of the things that happens is that over time, the more we play it over and have those conversations in our head with that person, or we think of that thing we wish we would have said, or what we’d like to say, those kinds of things, unfortunately, we can actually, over time, ramp up our anger and solidify the hurt and solidify the us versus them.  

So, is the first one just having this awareness? Yes. That says, oh, hey, this is what I am doing, and this is going to lead me down a trail that’s not helpful to my hurt. Yep, I’m playing this scene out. I’ve been hurt. And to understand that there are healthier and unhealthier ways to deal with it. The fact that your mind is trying to process it and plays it over, that’s part of being human. 

But being able to say, okay, now wait a minute. I have some options here. And one of those is going to take me down the path of bitterness. Okay. The other is to be able to say, okay, I’ve been hurt. I’m playing this over. I need to do something about this hurt that’s actually going to move me forward instead of in a loop. 

So, we’ve identified then that this rumination is going on and saying, okay, this is an earmark of anger and this is not helpful. So, I stopped that. Now I think it’s really important to then identify what actually was the source of the hurt and what was I feeling? So, if the frustration or the emotional hurt is the source, that’s what we have to deal with. So, let’s say that this is somebody who was expecting somebody to follow through on a promise to them. And that promise was broken, and it added injury because the trust was broken and they felt forgotten in some way to be able to feel that and to know that’s what it was, and then to be able to start saying, I need to allow myself to feel sad. 

I need to allow myself to understand the injury, but then I don’t want this to be attached to me. Okay. I’m going to want to shed this. And then the ways we shed oftentimes, particularly if it’s a hurt that someone else did, is to move toward forgiveness and forgiveness is a releasing process whereby we release the debt that somebody else essentially owes us emotionally.  

So, if I understand it, you illustrated three steps then. This concept of a wherewithal that, oh, I’m angry, I’m ruminating, I’m playing this thing out. That’s not helpful. Number two, thinking, okay, what is it that I’m hurtful about? Yes. Really looking at that, the hurt and not that outer shell that’s making us cradle the hurt but getting down to the hurt. And number three, forgiveness. But let’s go back and say a bit more about number two, getting down to the hurt and looking at the hurt. I would imagine that is a pretty tender moment, right? It is to go back down into that grief a little bit and be honest about what was real and what’s not real. 

That’s right. And sometimes that takes a little time of reflection. Okay. Sometimes that takes seeking some counsel to help us through. A wise mentor, a friend can help, and also to understand personality-wise, some people by nature, when there’s hurt, they feel it really intensely. They tend to be verbal. They tend to experience things really, really intensely. Other people stuff and hold things in and box things up. And you do have to know yourself related to this, because if somebody is hurt and they tend towards hurt easily and they tend towards spewing hurt, they have to work on tamping that down and bringing that in so it can be redeemed. 

And somebody else who suppresses and holds it in and doesn’t want to deal with it and just wants to avoid it, they have to work at bringing it forward. I’m thinking about you working with people going through this. Is it important that there’s a time and place that you do this and then you move on because you’ve done it? Does that make sense? Yes. Great question. Remember, time doesn’t heal all wounds. Therefore, it is important to enter a forgiveness process. That’s going to differ based on the type of wound it is, what kind of thing it is, if the hurt is an ongoing kind of a thing, or if it’s something that happened years ago. 

There are differences there. But I like to tell people that forgiveness is both a process and a decision. And I think it’s really important that we choose to enter the forgiveness process so that we can actually go through in a stepwise fashion and actually move forward. I get a sense sometimes that angry people don’t know how to live life without anger. 

Okay, now let me say a little bit more and then I want you to respond to it. They’ve made such a meal of anger, such a meal of bitterness that they’ve become their pastime thoughts. And in a way, and in a sense, that’s the life they know, and it’s the life they like. And to say, I need to get out from this anger, means that I resign, and then I have a life less on the other side of it. Unhealed anger, as it goes into bitterness, affects us physically, emotionally, relationally, and spiritually. All those areas. Physically, it is known in angry people that pent-up emotions affect the heart, hormone levels, sleep, all those different kinds of things. 

Emotionally, the Bible teaches us things about what to think on, okay? The things that are true and honest and lovely and of good report. And you’ll notice That ruminating on past hurts isn’t in Philippians 4:8, okay? And there’s a reason, because it tanks our mood, and it prevents us from seeing the opportunities and blessings around us. 

Now, that’s not to minimize hurt, believe me. I’m not about minimizing hurt. Jesus didn’t minimize hurt. He paid on the cross for all the hurt, so he doesn’t minimize it. Relationally? Anger and bitterness are alienating. It makes us versus them a way of life. And it can be a generational torrent, can’t it? No question. 

You don’t have to look any further than the Middle East. For sure. Seeing what anger passed down generationally looks like. No question. There are lots of theological reasons why the Middle East isn’t solved, but part of the reason why it isn’t is because everybody there lives by an eye for an eye and tooth for tooth. 

The concept of grace and forgiveness is not in their worldview. And then spiritually, for us to hold on to bitterness and to look at another person and have that angst towards them, the Bible talks about the parable of the unjust steward, in which he was forgiven and then he turned around and didn’t forgive somebody else. 

And there is a huge teaching there. For us to say, Jesus, forgive me of my sin, I need you to be my Savior. And then for us to turn around and say, that person there will not be forgiven by me. That’s an affront to Jesus Christ. Yeah. So, Ted, this has been very helpful, and we’re going to close this episode, and I want you to close by just answering this simple but important question. 

And the question is this, is life on the other side of anger better? And now, I’m not saying better like I know I should be that way. Yeah, I know that’s what Jesus wants. What I mean by better is the quality better? Oh, my word. I would say, very simply, and I forget who said this, maybe you know, but forgiveness and releasing that anger is setting a prisoner free and finding out that it was us. And it is a powerful thing to be able to let those hurts and the past be the past and we can really live in God’s grace in the present emotionally free, relationally free, spiritually free and that is so worth it. In essence, the radiation that leaks out of bitterness has no end. 

But the joy of a person who knows grace and forgiveness also radiates out. And with that, I think to our listeners, you can get a sense of why this message is on the top of Ted’s list of things to get out, right? Yep. Because we’re all dealing with this hurt. And because of it, our lives, in all of those areas that you mentioned, relationally, physically, but most importantly, spiritually, are hindered. 

And there’s much anger to release. Thank you for that, Ted. And we’re going to pick up in the next episode, Ted, and talk a little bit more about forgiveness. There’s a lot to say about forgiveness. It’s not an easy topic. So, we’re going to devote one of the episodes to that. Thanks for being with us today. 

We pray that this has been helpful. 

Welcome back to Breaking Bread, a podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I have with me again Ted Witzig Jr. and we’re talking and continuing a conversation on shedding hurt. Thanks for being with me, Ted. We talked about the many places that hurt comes from. Yes. In the last episode we talked about it coming through criticism. We’re criticized or we’re disappointed and we’re hurt by that. We’re hurt by the wrongdoing of somebody against us or what we call offense. Yep. And that particular strain we want to follow. Okay. When we have been offended against in a sense, we talked about how that can breed anger and we talked about how we can work through that anger in the last episode, but we have this forgiveness piece, which is a large part of that anger release. 

Forgiveness is a hugely biblical topic. So, in the next 20 minutes or so let’s unpack forgiveness. What is it? What is it not? How is it done? It is a big topic, but I hope to break it down for our listeners so that we can understand that it is both a process and a decision. And what I mean by that is, forgiveness for some things can be really simple, very in the moment. Oh, I’m sorry about that. You know, it’s just simple and we go forward. At the same time, when hurt has been prolonged, when it is very deep maybe even a life altering wound. These are the kinds of things that take time and forgiveness, a lot of prayer, but it’s a process. 

And what I find is that people oftentimes know that they’re supposed to forgive. They know that the Scripture says you need to forgive, but the actual steps of forgiveness are very elusive. Yeah. And I think some of it is hard to identify, okay, what does forgiveness look like? Or how do I know that I have? 

Yes. I certainly don’t feel like I have. And I said it out of my mouth. Does that mean it is? Or does my heart need to concur? Yes. Individuals are going to have different experiences or different needs. But in general, when I think about forgiveness, I like to use a process that is filled out by the acronym REACH, R E A C H, and this acronym was put together by a Christian psychologist who had experienced forgiveness very deeply for himself in that his own mother was murdered by some individuals who broke into her house. I think the thing about that that is so profound is that he was able to say to us, I have forgiven. Okay.  But he also was able to say, I still miss my mother. And every time we have a Christmas or something, we have to remember that forgiveness is about releasing bondage, it doesn’t necessarily mean that it’s going to make a painful event feel good.  

So that’s interesting. We need to understand what forgiveness repairs. Yes. Forgiveness does not repair the loss. That’s correct, sometimes. What does forgiveness repair then? It is important to remember that what forgiveness does is it is about releasing the debt and our sense that we will hold the punishment over somebody because unfortunately, that accidentally bonds us to the offender and the offense. And what that does is not only maintain the hurt, but also in essence keeps the toxin inside. And so, what we’re doing is releasing that, not saying it was okay. Because we want to make very clear that somebody can be forgiven for causing harm, but also still receive consequences. So, it’s not about the absence of consequences. 

What it is, though, as human beings, we want to, in essence, inflict pain back. We would like to see the other person experience the suffering that we ourselves have experienced. And forgiveness is releasing that responsibility. Yes. And releasing that vindication. Yeah. Off of us. Removing us from that. 

Which a lot of people say, wait a minute. That’s letting them off the hook. And what we’re saying, no. Or minimizing their offense. Like it didn’t happen. And you know what? No, we’re saying that what we’re doing is, we’re shifting roles. Okay? Instead of that, through replaying this in my head, am I going to be holding this debt out over somebody, saying, this has hurt me deeply, and I don’t want to be bonded to this. I want to give this over to the Lord, this person over to the Lord, so that I am not in the bondage of unforgiveness. I’m just thinking through the word forgive. Is that where the word comes from? You give, right? You are forgiving it. I’m not sure. I don’t know. It may or may not, but I think there is part of that that is really important to see is that forgiveness ultimately isn’t about who deserves what. There is actually something that is given and what is given is an act of grace. Okay? So, I have to remember that forgiveness isn’t about saying, does this person deserve this? 

Because, in reality, many times they may not. And we understand that personally. Having been forgiven, those who are believers have been forgiven, and we were not deserving of that forgiveness. That’s right. So, this forgiveness stuff tells very closely to Jesus, certainly, right? Oh, for sure. 

And there has to be some condolence knowing that Jesus is very much a part of this offense. I think what’s neat is that Jesus is willing to walk alongside them, to both empower them and coach them, reminding them that he understands, because he actually bore, think about this, the impact of that sin. 

Right. Okay. He took that payment that we want to hold over. That’s right. And so he is not unfamiliar with that. Right. He knows it. He’s very near to the situation. Very near to the situation. And it’s good for us to remember that because we can talk to him and say, Lord, this hurts so bad. And he can say, I know, I know. 

Yeah. Yes. And we can say, Lord, this shouldn’t have happened. And he says, I know. Yeah. When we talk to Jesus about that hurt, he doesn’t just kind of understand. Yeah. He fully understands that particular incident because he felt it on his shoulders on the cross.  

So, Ted, what is REACH?  Yes. So, the R stands for recall the hurt and sometimes people are like, I don’t want to think about the hurt. But what we need to do is see it accurately, not more than it is or less than it is. Okay, now should this be done in the presence of another person? Oh, great point. I would say that for things that are on the minor end of the scale, okay, I think a lot of times these things can just be dealt with internally and that’s not a problem. 

For things people have either that are very large and very confusing for somebody, or if somebody hasn’t been able to get past hurt. I believe bringing in a minister, accountability partner, a mentor, someone who can help us walk through that, to help us both in bearing witness to our pain but also helping us walk through the process is very, very helpful.  

And I would imagine that would help us give a little bit of indication that we are moving through this because I think sometimes what we is have we forgiven or have we not but just to say, okay, this is what R is and we did it. Yes, I believe it is important because when people by nature think about hurt, they go in a circle with it. And we replay it and we feel it again. What we want to do is keep moving down the field with it. It brings us to that medium place where we can say, this is what happened, and this is what it cost. So that’s Recall the Hurt.  

1. It says Empathy. Now this is one that seems a little backwards. People would say, empathy for who? Empathy toward the offender. Oh, wait a minute after what they caused? Yeah, here’s the reason this was so important because the more we hurt and more anger and things like that towards another person, the more we would like to dehumanize that person to see that person as unredeemable. Yeah, okay if they’re unredeemable why forgive?

And so, what this step does is it tries to look at the world through the lens of that other person, like us, but not in the same way, but just like we have said things and done things that have caused harm. Somebody else did that toward us. And I’ve heard the quote, hurt people hurt people. 

It’s so true, isn’t it? It is and so if I realize oh, I’ve been hurt. Oh, that other person and what kind of hurts are they dealing with? And that goes a long way in feeling the empathy here. Yes, and it’s not about making it equal. It’s not about saying this person drove drunk and killed somebody. It’s not so well, I have empathy because I did that. It is being able to say that person has sinned and doesn’t deserve forgiveness. I have sinned and I haven’t deserved forgiveness. And to remember that at the foot of the cross, there are two people that need forgiveness. And I can see, as we know what the end of this is, forgive or give off. It is.  

The A in the REACH model stands for altruism, and that’s a word some people won’t be familiar with. But in essence, it means to give or to do something good for no other reason than to do good. And the spiritual word that goes along with this is grace. It is grace. Ultimately, forgiveness is about giving something to somebody that they do not deserve. And that’s why we said earlier that if you look at somebody and say, do they deserve forgiveness? 

The answer most of the time is going to be no. But at the other end, just like God has been gracious towards us, okay, for us to be able to see because of Christ we forgive. And what that does is it releases something very powerfully, the gospel of Jesus Christ. And the Word is such a wonderful springboard because it gives us a reason to do it, and it also gives us the power to do it. 

Our faith plays an integral role. Yes, in this and sets us free to live this way. My flesh, my human nature would like to just go back to eye for eye, tooth for tooth. And unfortunately, that is as natural as breathing for me, but it is also what bonds us to the offense and to the hurt and keeps us stuck. 

Let’s go to C. Yes. The next one is C that stands for committing to forgive. So, as we go through this process where we objectively look at what happened, we give empathy, we realize there’s a gift to be given through grace. The C is essentially putting a marker down. You can think of it like the Ebenezer in the Old Testament where they bring up a pile of stones and say, thus far, the Lord has brought me. 

I’m putting this marker down on this timeline that I am releasing this debt right here, right now. And I’m thinking fuzzy terms here, but I see that E and the A being somewhat heart directed, right? Kind of like, that’s maybe where the feeling part, maybe you want to strike a chord with this forgiveness, but the C now is mind. 

Yeah. Kind of mental thought, decision, will. It is a decision. It is a will. There’s a willful decision here. And that’s to be able to say that after this point, when it comes to mind again, because painful memories come to mind sometimes, that we recommit to forgive, which by the way is the H in this model called hold on to forgiveness. 

I don’t want to jump there just yet, but I think one of the things to remember is it’s so wonderful to have the marker to be able to come back to and say, oh, this can of worms that my mind would like to reopen again, Lord, I’m laying that back down. And I think that helps us process feelings as they come and go afterwards. 

So, let’s say afterwards, six months down the road, all of a sudden, I have these feelings again and say, oh, have I forgiven them? My will and thoughts kick in and say, we have. Yes. That was my job. And I think it’s very important because sometimes people want forgiveness to be all about their feelings. 

And unfortunately, if you’re waiting on your feelings to want to forgive, then you have a problem forever. If you’re waiting for your feelings to say that hurtful, painful thing no longer feels hurtful or that it just feels pleasant, hurtful things don’t feel pleasant. Okay. What the nice part though, is what I think at the end of forgiveness, the goal is to, what I would call, come to terms with. 

And what that means is that I have a sense that I am not grinding my axe on this thing. Yes, that happened. It is what it is. And, because of Christ, I’m moving past it and through it. I’ve released that person to God and the outcome to God. And I am going forward without this on my shoulders. And so then, H, we hold on to that. 

Yes. And I think it is important for people to remember that saying that’s almost risen to the level of Scripture, though it’s not in there, is forgive and forget. And Matt, I have to tell you. I only know of a couple ways to forget things, and, I’m getting better at that, actually, Ted. The older I get, I’m getting forgetful. Do you know what? I want you to think of it this way. That forgetting happens when our brain synapses don’t work. And so, you know what happens? Whether through a stroke, whether through dementia, whether through neural loss or some kind of thing, I don’t think that’s what God meant is in order to forgive we had to have some kind of neural death. But what happens here is that forgetting is actually not the zapping away of a memory but really what it is it goes into long term memory and it’s not something that’s not called forward every moment. It’s just not the front and center or that we’re not organizing our life around it. 

It’s part of the data bank of memories of experiences, but actually along with this experience of pain, there can also, because of God, be the memory that has been settled in my heart and mind. Ted, I think in a perfect situation, we would want reconciliation. Is that a prerequisite forgiveness? 

Like are they bundled together? Yep. You know, in an ideal world, there would always be able to be forgiveness and reconciliation. Think of it this way though. Forgiveness is what one person extends to another, where reconciliation is two people working to repair a breach in a relationship. Unfortunately, sometimes that second one can only happen partially. 

Sometimes it can’t happen at all. Here are a couple examples. What if the forgiveness needs to take place with somebody who has died or is no longer available to us in our life? We could still harbor bitterness and hurt with that. We need to go through a forgiveness process even though reconciliation can’t occur. 

Another thing that happens is sometimes the person that hurts us does not own that. They reject the fact that they either deny that it happened or won’t own the fact that it happened. And so, if we’re waiting on forgiveness to occur because that other person has come and said, hey, I’m really sorry that I did this, then we’re held hostage by somebody else’s actions. 

And God doesn’t want that. You’ll notice that he asks us to forgive, not because other people have asked, but because of what Christ has done. What I think God wants is for us to do our part in being able to see the relationship to be restored as far as it can. And Ted, I believe that when we do that, when we extend grace in step with the way God extends grace, we connect. 

Now, I’m going to make up terms here, but we connect with his favor in a way that is truly beautiful in the life of a Christian. Does that make sense? Yes. And I think that’s the hope that’s here. Yes. And I think that sometimes forgiveness doesn’t make sense to us in a human sense, but you know what? In light of the gospel, it does make sense because it’s actually us living it out in and amongst our human peers. I will tell you Matt, I am NOT trying to talk this up because I think it’s easy or cheap or not costly. Forgiveness can be a brutally hard process, but I’ll tell you what’s even more brutally hard, Matt, is unforgiveness Yeah, and I have walked through the forgiveness process with people who have experienced rejection, people have experienced abuse and assaults and all different kinds of things that are extremely painful. 

But more painful than having that occur is walking with the chains of bitterness and being bonded to the offender through unforgiveness. And that’s a terribly costly thing. That’s a huge statement. I’d heard a testimony from a man who was falsely accused and served a great dear many years in prison. 

Okay. Okay. On the wrong count, it was the wrong place, the wrong, you know, missed his kids growing up, missed all of those things. And he got let out of prison and was interviewed and said, you know, Are you bitter about this? You know, they took all those years from you. And he said, I forget the number of years, but he says, I was locked up for 15 years. 

I don’t want to be locked up anymore. Yeah. Oh, wow. Isn’t that perspective? That perspective is amazing because I know plenty of situations where people are holding onto things for decades and generations. And it is bondage. As the Bible says that root of bitterness by which many are defiled. 

I think one of the things is that people don’t realize that unhealed hurt defiles. That means it gets in there and it creates wedges. It gets in there, it changes perspective. The concept of love and grace and forgiveness and living in the present-day joy of the Lord, takes a real hit. Yeah. Ted, paint a little picture of what you’ve seen in clients who have been able to release the debt on hard things. 

Do you know, in the counseling room, Matt, we have to deal with reality as it is, so we don’t get to deal with forgiveness as this abstract concept out there. But I will tell you this, that as people go through their healing process, and as they come to the place where they are shifting from experiencing the hurt and being in the victim role and moving over into being a survivor of that and moving on into thriving and going on in their lives, it is amazing to see how God can take something that looks impossible to forgive and actually helps the person to come to peace and to terms with it.  

And by no means do I mean easy. Yeah. By no means do I mean minimizing the damage. But what I do mean is that unforgiveness is not a millstone around that person’s neck. Yeah. And that is a tremendous amount of freedom. I wish that for everybody, no matter how big or small the hurts and wounds, I wish that would be part of their lives. 

It’s a huge statement and I want to leave our listeners with that just as we close this episode of the importance of forgiveness. The importance is we’re talking in this series about hurt, what it takes to shed hurt, and forgiveness is a huge part of that. Thanks, Ted. Appreciate it. Thanks, Matt. 

Ted Witzig Jr. is back with me today on Breaking Bread. Welcome back, Ted. Thank you, Matt. We’re talking about hurt and shedding hurt. Yes. Ted, in the last two episodes, we went down a particular trail of hurt, and that is when we are wronged against. We called it offended. When we are wronged against by somebody, that very frequently breeds hurt. 

As well as anger. Yes. And the remedy for that was forgiveness. And we carefully walked through that. But there’s another strain of hurt in our lives. It doesn’t come necessarily by being offended or being hurt by people. But just by life. Maybe criticism or maybe disappointment. Yes. And so maybe forgiveness isn’t necessarily the remedy. 

But I trust there is a remedy for that type of hurt as well. Right. A little different than needing to forgive, but it is about coming to terms with what has transpired or what hasn’t transpired. A lot of times when we’re invested in an idea or a dream, and then it doesn’t come to be, we’re left with disappointment and then we can go to this place of just insecurity like, man, where am I at with this, or I thought that was a good thing, you know? When you say insecurity, to me, that really speaks of an identity issue. Kind of like, what does this mean about me personally? Yeah. Because now I’m taking a very personal reaction to whatever has happened or has not happened. 

Exactly. And often that is because the things that we’re hoping to happen make a lot of sense to us, they fit us, they’re the things that we think would be good. And then when they don’t occur, it becomes a block, kind of like, well this doesn’t make sense and so how do I adjust to this reality, whatever that is. 

Right. And I’m hurt by it. And sometimes our core can be shaken on a couple of different levels. Yes. Right. For one, Ted, it might be what we think is a very logical, good move to make. Right. And so, my expertise in a sense is shaken, but there’s also this spiritual element too. It’s like, I believe spiritually this is right. Or, I felt like God has led me this way. And so now all of a sudden, my spiritual roots are somewhat shaken. Right. Exactly. I think one of the greatest examples we can look to in this is David in the Bible and his desire to build a temple. David’s desire to build the temple was a good desire. In fact, the prophet that he talked to at the time said, hey, go ahead. 

But it was not God’s plan for that. David’s response to the redirection was that he stepped back. Okay. And he said, God, you’ve been really good to me in the past. You are great. And you know what? Who am I that you have blessed me this way? And you know what? He stepped back and he said, God, I want to recognize you as God, okay? 

And what he did was he relinquished and that’s the hard part for us. We kind of go, yeah, but this is good. And it’s like, what he said is, God, I relinquish this to you. What’s neat about that, it allowed him to worship, it allowed him then to make preparation for the alternate outcome. But it didn’t take him down the road of just being bitter. 

Right. So, you’ve just really walked through how David shed the hurt. That’s right. He had an opportunity for real hurt that we don’t experience, but he shed that. And there’s one word that I picked up on, as you said, is redirected. He saw it as a redirection, and there’s a slight but very significant difference in understanding what redirection means as opposed to stop, you’re stupid. 

Exactly. I think one of the things to remember as believers, as we walk with the Lord, his hand is not removed. I mean, he can work through these situations that are uncomfortable, are ambiguous, are uncertain, but he’s never not there. That’s one of the keys we have to remember. So, you’re really putting your finger on an important point. 

This is how we shed hurt in this situation. And that is coming back, I talked about David being re-grounded in God. So, why don’t you take that a little bit further? So, if you’re really walking with a person through this type of situation, what does it look like to become re-grounded? So, with that, I start by just acknowledging the shock, the disappointment, the upset, whatever those things are, and depending on what has occurred, that’s going to be, we’re going to take time or process related to that. 

That’s somewhat reminiscent of recalling the hurt as we’ve talked about previously, right? So that’s pretty similar. It’s acknowledged. You acknowledge it. But the second step is about re-grounding. It’s about remembering. There are so many Psalms that talk about God being the rock and what it is about doing is it’s being able to wait. 

Okay. Wait a minute. I need to remember that my grounding is the solidness that I’m on is the Word and that Word is Christ and it’s God’s truth and his promises instead of my grounding being on this decision, or on this outcome. And as human beings, we so easily shift to my grounding is in this circumstance, versus my grounding is in God, in Christ, on the Word. 

You know, Hebrews, I think, speaks to this concept, as well as all the Scriptures do, but I love that in Hebrews 6, where it talks about an anchor of the soul. There you go. Right? That’s within the veil. And you get this sense of a ship that’s on storm-tossed waves, and there’s nothing fixed there. 

Right, exactly. The people inside the ship, there’s nothing fixed. But what is fixed is what’s most important, is that anchor that’s lodged. Exactly. And as a believer, that is reality, isn’t it? And we need to be reminded of that reality, or else we misplace reality for the waves. Exactly. I like to say it’s important for us to remember to have dual vision, not double vision. That’ll make you dizzy and blurry and upset your stomach. What I like to say about dual vision is to remember that we are in the present, in this flesh and blood, we’re here in these circumstances. And the spiritual reality of the Word and the promises of God are true. And it’s so easy for us, and it’s why we go to church every week to hear the Word and go into the Word so regularly, we have to be reminded of the spiritual reality. 

That’s what keeps us grounded, that’s what anchors the soul while the other stuff goes up and down. And so, when we lose that sense of both realities, my present-day physical reality, this circumstance with my son, who now is, whatever has happened, he’s in jail, you know, and a lot of hurt has been incurred. A lot of hurt has happened. Whatever. However big or small, to remember the other reality that the story is still being written. God is still writing the story. We are still laborers together with God in this, and he has the ability to take ashes and turn them into something that’s beautiful. Yeah, Ted, what’s amazing is we’re coming back to a very narrow, central, common solution, right? 

The steadiness of God, right? Oh, yes. Yeah. I mean, we would probably have this as one of the remedies if we were talking about addiction today. Yeah, sure. Or if we were talking about identity today, or if we were talking about relationships today. Yeah. But we’re talking about hurt today. And wonderfully, this is part of the answer for hurt. 

It is. And I think the other thing to remember, and we’ve talked about it in another podcast you and I did on redeeming transitions. Sure. I think the same thing is true here with hurts. Redeeming hurt, he can redeem things that we can’t see as even redeemable. Meaning he can take something and do something with it. 

You know, I think of one of the ways we are hurt, and that’s through maybe criticism. Yes. Of people, right? People might criticize us or think less of something that we value and all of that. And now this amplifies the solution that you’ve suggested here because when I’m hurt in those cases, I’m very much tied to that other person and that comment. 

That comment has a great deal of weight and pull on my life. And you might say maybe too much, am I right about that? It could be. Yeah. It needs to have a proper amount. Yes. Not more or less. That’s right. And I think that’s what’s so wonderful about the Scriptures being the focus of our grounding. 

On the one hand, as the Scripture teaches us that a wise man will hear instruction and to be able to become wiser because of it. So, when we hear feedback. Whether we like it or not, that we can find, is there a grain of truth there that I need to implement? And at the same time, we find too, that just because somebody has a different opinion or idea, it doesn’t automatically mean that we just throw everything in. 

That’s the tension of saying, I need to obey God, I need to be open to counsel. And in that place, there’s that beautiful weaving that keeps us from going off the rails in either direction, and I don’t care what anybody thinks, or I have to do what everybody thinks. Yes. And this grounding in God really pulls all of these things into proper orbit. 

Yes. In our life. So, we’ve talked in some glowing terms about grounding ourselves, okay? We’ve talked about why God is worthy of being grounded in his character and his nature and anchor to our soul. But maybe for the one out there who’s saying, I need it a little bit more applied to bring this down a little bit more about what do I do now with my Bible to help get me here. 

Yeah. As we’re going through this, I would encourage people to remember that giving yourself some space to be able to deal with the fact that something is not the way that you want it to be. Things are raw. And so, time can bring perspective. Again, we didn’t say that time heals all wounds. But at the same time, time can bring perspective. 

Another thing is it’s a good opportunity to check in with another person that can help you get perspective. I know that when I felt thrown off by things like my expectations haven’t been met or something hit me. That’s been a good time for me to go sit down with people who have mentored me or my parents or somebody else whose counsel I respect. 

The reason I think that’s very important is because sometimes when we get in that place where we’re feeling confused, just letting it spin in our mind isn’t healthy. Maybe it doesn’t keep its healthy place. Again, some people like to process alone, and I don’t have any problem with that as long as processing is actually processing something helpful. 

And we talked about that with forgiveness. Also, rumination that is very circular, that keeps us stuck is not helpful. And I think right there, Ted, it’s helpful. Am I going in a circle, or am I going down the field? Because I think we have a gauge of that. Yeah. Another thing is, when we’re not sure what to do next, you know the Bible provides us with things that are always good to do. 

There are these things that I would say are intermediate goals. They’re the things about being kind and doing justly and being involved in your church family and even taking care of your body, making sure you’re getting rest and exercise. It doesn’t fix the thing exactly. 

It’s not like, okay, now that this vote came up and we were going to vote on this project and the congregation came together and all of a sudden what I thought was going to go up goes down. Well, in a time when things are settling out, you’re not sure how it’s going to work, it’s always right to be an encourager to somebody else. 

And what, as you spoke, comes to me, Ted, is to realize that these things that the Scripture calls us to, as you mentioned, service and prayer and all of those things, are not just the earmarks of a believer in terms of duty. Yeah. But they are useful in keeping us in a healthy spot. That’s right. And to keep us grounded. 

And I think that’s a nice lens to view some of these things, because sometimes we’re like, I know I need to do this or that because, well, I’m a Christian. God has got many wonderful reasons why he’s encouraged us to do it. That’s right. And I think the opportunity to learn about those things gives us some of the next steps to do. I liken this to the college student or the person who is going to college say well, I’m not sure which major to pick because I feel like I have to know if I’m going to like that job five years from now in order to know if I should pick that major. When we have a disappointment, we don’t know the future necessarily. What we have to do is keep going with what’s right in front of us and with time, with God’s teaching, as the dust settles, then other options will open. 

And many times, we’re trying to predict outcomes that just aren’t available to us. Yeah, that’s interesting that you’ve now painted a futuristic perspective, because I’m thinking on that timeline, we recall hurt, so there’s a past sense to it. But that hurt can impinge the future, can’t it? 

It sure can. Our mind has the tendency to either dredge the past or go into something called future tripping, which is just going, well, this is always going to be bad, or oh, no, what if all this stuff happens? Or I’ve been bruised, and so I’m not going to do that again. Oh, exactly. I’ve tried that. Yeah. Oh, yeah. Well, I tried that. Didn’t work out, so there you go. I’m done. Yeah. That kind of edge is the symptom of hurt. When we allow that disappointment to color the future, then all of a sudden you go, wow, this is really impactful.  

And now what you’re saying is when, now when we cast the vision of shedding hurt, it looks all the more beautiful, Ted, because what it does is it releases us from the past. Yes. And also unlocks the future. Yes. We’re trying to keep short accounts with everything so that we aren’t allowing this hurt and stuff from the past to build. It’s a lot like a massive credit card debt, okay? If somebody just keeps building up this debt over here, it steals the future. Even though it’s all past stuff, it steals the future. So, clear this up, because I love the metaphor of this building account. What is it that we’re trying to say? 

When we have hurt, it is better that we shed it quickly. Yes. Isn’t that right rather than allow this thing to build and then incur more hurt until we have many large accounts? Exactly. Because what ends up happening is when we keep short accounts, when we keep our account current, so to speak, and in this analogy, what it does is it just means that we’re always going through the shedding process. 

And so, when disappointments and things happen, we take them to the Lord. We process them emotionally. We get the support we need to do that so that we zero out our accounts over and over, because when somebody has a huge amount of this unsecured debt, first of all, it becomes a burden just to pay the minimum. 

Okay. Secondly, if somebody has $30,000 of credit card debt. Okay, when the next 200 comes it’s insignificant. So, more hurt just gets thrown on the pile. You know what? You’ve really painted a picture now that I’ve really appreciated, Ted, just with this illustration. And that is, the tools we’ve been talking about in this episode of Shedding Hurt are not necessarily just to be filed away in your garage with your tool set. Shedding Hurt, where is that at? Find it. But it’s really a lifestyle that we have as believers and who routinely shed hurt. Yes. Because, you know, in a family or in a church family, we’re going to always have those situations or those people that either remind us of the hurt or that person that tends to get under our skin and those kinds of things. 

And if we are not regularly shedding hurt, then we automatically just get to shift gears into, I’m a debt collector. Yeah, the vision of this person, as you’ve painted it, who routinely sheds hurt is an amazing witness of Christ. You know what I mean? I’m just thinking of the free life that this person lives. 

Yeah, yeah. And what a wonderful witness tool, not only to the unbeliever, who could have it too through Christ, but also for the believer who can grow and be discipled in this area. This is not easy work. What we’re trying to cast a vision of is this is worthy work. And this work is dependent upon Christ himself. 

Oh yeah. His Holy Spirit. Yeah, sure. And that is why the outcome is so grand. Yes. You know, one of the things that people say to me as a counselor sometimes is, well, don’t you counselors just like to dig around in the past? I mean, isn’t that what you do? You just kind of dig around there. And I say, you know what, I actually have no need to go into the past. Like, personally, if somebody doesn’t need to go into the past, we don’t need to go into the past.  

But there are three indicators that I use to help me figure out if somebody needs to deal with stuff from the past. Okay, and the first one is if something from their past interferes in their relationships today. Okay, so if somebody’s past is making it hard for them to relate to their own son or let’s say a problem with an authority figure in the past makes it difficult for them to relate to authority today. 

Yeah. Then the past isn’t the past. The past is getting replayed right now. Yeah. The second thing is if something in the past interferes in our relationship with God, so if for example, this disappointment happened in my marriage or with my child, and why didn’t God protect me from this, I don’t know all those things, all I can say is that if that person’s perspective of God, relating to God, to go to the Scriptures, those kinds of things, are wounded, then we need to work on healing the past. The third thing is, if God has something for us to do that we cannot do or will not do because of the past.  

So, let’s say they remember, for example, how their speech class was in high school or college. And they just remember some people snickering at them during that class, then sometime the Sunday school vote comes to them, and they say, hey, we’d like you to be a Sunday School teacher. And the person says, no, I can’t, I just can’t. Yeah. Because when I was 15 years old, I was told that I could never do this. 

And because of that, it drives this stake here in this person’s mind that just says, you cannot do it. And again, we’re not trying to say that everybody has to be called to every single position, but the concept is, if a hurt is hindering, is it hindering my relationship with God to relate to him? Is it hindering my relationship with how I relate to other people? And number three, is it hindering my ability to do what God is asking me to do? And then to sum up what you’ve just said, that’s when the past is really in the present. That’s right. And so, we need to deal with that. That’s right. 

So, if I want to just recap here a little bit, shedding hurt as it pertains to criticism or as it pertains to insecurities and these types of things, disappointments, unmet expectations it is, as appropriate, going back to that hurt, naming it. processing what that is. Sometimes that requires someone to be present, maybe not always, but sometimes that can be helpful. 

And then going to grounding in God. And that is a rehearsal of the gospel, a rehearsal of the Word, a rehearsal of his promises, a rehearsal of his character. And what he’s asked us to do, even when we don’t understand. And then moving into what he has asked us to do and all of the things like prayer, service, love and so much he has made very clear for us. 

Yes. Ted, thanks for leading us in this discussion on shedding hurt. I know that I’ve got some new lenses I’m viewing my own heart through and that’s so helpful. Great. And I know this is a passionate topic of yours. Yes. So, one last chance here, I would just say to our listeners, dealing with hurt can be hard work, and it’s something that people don’t necessarily look forward to. 

Ah, I have to deal with this hurt. But the freedom and the release that comes with laying down and shedding hurt is a freedom that will allow for joy where currently there is only burden. And the optimism, Ted and this whole series has been, there are tools to help us with that. That’s right. And the primary tool is the Lord Jesus, his Word. 

On our website, if you go to our website, to our listeners, you’ll see, are you hurting? There’s a button right there on the front page. You can click on that and find some more resources to touch on some of the topics we’ve talked about. Yes. Thanks. Thanks for being with us.