Marriage Decision-Making Podcast Episodes

When we talk about a faith-based marriage, that’s not an outline of specific activities, that’s a description of a mindset and of a biblical spiritual way to approach marriage. 

Welcome, friends, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Today in the studio is Amber Miller and Ron Messner. And today we’re going to have a conversation about the marriage decision making process. Thanks, both of you, for being here. Thanks, Matt. 

Thank you. You know Amber as a clinician here and as you work with many individuals who are confronted with this question, you bring a perspective that’s a bit broader than all of our individual experiences. And certainly, Ron, as an elder in your church, certainly you walk through this process with lots of people as well. 

So, we see both of you as really being credible to be able to speak in this important space. So, Amber, I’d like to maybe turn to you a little bit. You brought this topic to us. Let’s talk a little bit about this. What’s some of the background, maybe, that puts this on your radar? Yeah, the way our church does marriage is unique. 

And so just being able to have a conversation about it, I think, is important. I have the opportunity to work with a lot of single females in different stages of life. And so certainly I’ve seen a number of different scenarios where this has played out. And some have moved toward marriage, and some have not. 

And even with that, just trying to think through, what does that look like when it is a no? And a lot of times it can feel like the process just stops. So today I’d like us to go a little bit further with that as well. I think sometimes for the Brotherhood in general, they think of our marriage decision making process as more than nuts and bolts, which is what we can get focused on. 

And it’s really not what we stand on. It’s not the foundation. The foundation is that we would like it to be by faith. So, this is a, a spiritual process, one that both from the time of examining to going ahead and processing whether it’s a yes or no, that it’s not precisely who talks to who when or what kinds of questions are asked, but that it’s guided by faith as opposed to practical kinds of things or even personal things. 

And let’s back up and say, all right, why would such a decision be a process of faith and why we would enter this decision with a mindset like that, maybe above and beyond some of the other decisions we make. As Christians, we believe that God directs our life, that he gives us liberty in Christ, he gives us room for decisions, but that he blesses us with direction from his Holy Spirit. 

And so, we would teach that God is faithful to walk us through the process because marriage is a reflection of who God is and his relationship with us, because it affects other people in a very personal and intimate kind of way. And so, I think it’s right that we treat it that way, at a very high spiritual level, a high faith level. 

And there’s no question that people reflect in Christ through either their singleness or through their marriage. And so, it’s an amazing opportunity in either of those life circumstances to reflect Christ. And so, to do that well is important. As we think about this reflection of God in marriage, certainly the covenant that we enter into lends itself to some major pause. 

Do you know, Matt, I think another piece, which everybody knows, but I think it’s helpful just in terms of catching the seriousness is most of the decisions we talk about are easily reversible, so I can sign for a mortgage and yeah, I can’t back out of it tomorrow. Actually, I can’t. I think there’s a 30-day waiting period, whatever. 

But when you’re in the mortgage, you can sell it. You might lose some money, you know, be at a disadvantage. You can start a job without being sure that it’s the right one. Yeah. And you may fail at it terribly, but you could recover potentially within 30 days or six months. I can’t think of any other decisions, there may be some, but where once the commitment’s made, the way out is a disaster. 

The fact that it really does need to be long term, I think, is the seriousness we see in brothers and sisters in church when they contemplate it. Well, I think the question right there, are you ready for marriage, is one that unfortunately can take a lot of people off guard. That honestly is the first place to start. 

Are you now at a point in your life where you are ready to consider God’s plan and perhaps moving toward marriage. And what would be some of the metrics of that readiness to say, yeah, I am ready. Are you at peace with God? And that precedes any decision making, and it’s not about perfection, who we are, but that it isn’t should I get married, it’s, is my relationship with God within the parameters it should be? 

I think questions like, are you willing to take the role that’s assigned to you? So, for men, are you willing to provide spiritual leadership? Take on that level of responsibility. Typically, that’s pretty intimidating for men. Women often don’t know that. They think we just like that sort of thing and don’t realize that it looks really big. 

Are you willing to take on responsibility for providing for her? And obviously speaking for sisters, I’ll let Amber speak for them. But are you willing to move into a different role? You know, you may have been at work in other places, very independent and in leadership kinds of roles. And it doesn’t mean giving that up. But are you willing to blend that into a marriage that’s defined in a bit of a different way? And then obviously the question, which relates to being at peace with God, but that is, are you living an overcoming life? Some people separate those. And so, it’s important to examine both. Are there any dominant kinds of things going on that you’re not managing in a godly way? 

Those questions all precede a marriage. Would you like to get married? We actually ask this of a sister before giving a proposal also, because the same expectation is there. That is the process she should go through. And so, there’s the sense of time. I think that needs to be considered. And even to consider, are you ready? 

So, many elders won’t give a proposal. They start with are you ready? And do you need time to consider whether you’re ready? So, I think that a sister needs time to think about whether she’s ready. The first question isn’t this is the proposal. What’s the answer? The first question is, where are you regarding marriage, period? 

Sure. I think the tricky part is that even if you do start with a question like, are you ready? At that point, you know there’s someone interested, and you can’t undo that. I think that’s what makes it really challenging is just at that point, life changes somewhat. To your point, Amber, the concept of readiness, and now I’m going to even back up another layer, the readiness for God’s will in our life should be something that we’re plowing continually.  

Having this readiness instead of waiting for things to happen in my life to all of a sudden now grovel with these big questions, right? But that we in our walk with Jesus are coming to points of readiness and marriage is one of the many. Yeah. I like the way you word that, Matt, because there is a sense where you can be proactive in this and preparing yourself for those next steps, whatever that may be in your life, you can be proactive in your reflection and your growth so that doesn’t just surprise you. 

You don’t have to live in fear. Oh no, the elder might call. So, just as a perspective, there have been times, more often on a second marriage, that I have dreaded calling a sister. And not because they don’t want to, but just because they’re at a point in life where life’s more orderly and settled. And I’m more worried about how I’m going to unsettle the relationships in their life just by popping the question. Exactly.  

But it’s been really interesting, and I don’t know if other elders would say the same, but at least three fourths of the time when I’ve been like, oh no, I do not want to have to do this. There’s been a high degree of readiness and they’ve gone well. It’s also evidence that God is often preparing so sometimes it is clearly shell shock and other times, like no, I’ve been thinking about that. Yeah, I really like that perspective of the larger breadth of marriages here just by that comment where you have a person a widow or a widower becoming married again in a second marriage That’s typically going to be later in life as we talk about the young 20 something getting married. 

Those are different, very different places, aren’t they? And so, I think today, we’d like to bring perspective there, because that’s really important to think about. One other piece I want to just put in, I think I would speak for all elders that we would actually be a little more comfortable if both brothers and sisters didn’t necessarily wait until I got a name or I’m going to get a name but be willing to counsel. 

And hopefully they do with parents or with other people that are more mature than their peers or more experienced than their peers. But it’s helpful. It isn’t often it happens, but when it does, it’s somebody comes that, you know, I don’t have a name in mind, just feel like I’m at that stage of life and feels like God would want me to consider what should I be thinking about? 

And instead, I think that tends to be done in isolation. And it is sort of assumed that’s our process. But I think those who come and actually ask to talk about it without a context, that it’s helpful to them. And so, I would encourage that. You would definitely in that stage be able to really think about your formal questions about peace. Precisely, the things that Amber mentioned because there’s a point too, once you have a name or once you feel like, okay, this is the direction God is leading me that it’s very hard to surrender or it’s very hard to go backwards from that. And so, like you said, seeking counsel early and often, I think is a very wise thing to do. 

All right. Now we have this delicate balance between isolation and secrecy, and you’re suggesting isolation isn’t healthy. And so, we want to bring that out into counsel, but yet at the same time, there’s a fair amount of secrecy that goes on with the way it usually plays itself out, right? Right. I’m just curious for you to speak into the importance of that. You know, it’s a great question, Matt, because it’s very sensitive, but I think it has to do with trust. And so, seeking out people who you can trust. So, I don’t like the idea of using the word secrecy because it’s like there would be something wrong with it being known. But I like to think of it in terms of respect. Yeah. 

Some brother was thinking of asking for her but if she wasn’t ready to consider marriage, she shouldn’t be privy to that. Right. Until there’s an openness and a readiness to consider it. So, I think respect and trust are really key elements. So, counsel and openness, but within those parameters. Yeah. As opposed to publicly knowing things, right? 

And what I hear you say is really you’re trying to protect people. You’re trying to protect the other, and I’m trying to put myself in somebody’s shoes, right? Maybe I want to protect that potential spouse, right? And what would be a way to protect her now at this point of decision? I appreciate the way you said that, framing it as more respect in the process. Because I do think that the desire for confidentiality can lead some people to shame and secrecy without meaning to, and so in that sense they’re left struggling alone, which I think is why I do work with a number of different women that are working through that. 

And sometimes women that haven’t talked about that for years, and they’ve never really had anyone to process some of those losses and hurts in their life and how things turned out or didn’t turn out. So, you’ve just put your finger on some drag that comes along sometimes with secrecy, and we’ve already said that’s a really bad term, and that’s difficult. 

Absolutely. I think you can look at it the opposite too. And where is the value in having some confidentiality around the process in a world of social media and dating and all of this. Again, I don’t know how much that is the answer. It’s very easy for people to be superficial when they’re dating or when they have a goal in mind of marriage to not truly be themselves. 

And so there is the other aspect where I would say there’s value in having that secrecy. Not secrecy for secrecy, but respect for other people and sharing too much of your inclinations or what you’re thinking about in even a semi-public forum. This is about other people, and it is about your own integrity too. 

It will be very difficult if things don’t go the way you’re looking, and then everybody knows that, and there’s a high degree of shame that comes with rejection or felt rejection. I’d like to key in on a term, marriage by faith, and you dropped that term early on, Ron, in saying that we like to think about this as a process, and this is the way we do it. 

But you try to get out from underneath that thinking and say, really, faith is what we’re talking about here, and I’d like to pry in a little bit to that, to say, what are those most foundational concepts of a marriage that’s built on faith? I think it has something to do with separating personal desires so that faith is based on trusting another person, in this case, God, can choose better than I can. 

And the only way for that to happen is first to be honest about what our personal desires are. So, you know, it would be nice if she was the most beautiful person ever. It’d be nice if she had the best sense of humor. It’d be nice if she had a college degree and potential to earn well and on and on through all those things. 

We have to be honest enough to say even if I don’t want to look through those lenses, those lenses are present. They’re a part of who we are. And so a part of pursuing marriage by faith is acknowledging those lenses, and then with self-awareness, with insight, not letting them influence a decision and try to come back to a sense of surrender or openness or willingness, and even a high degree of trust that God can choose better, that what God chooses for me would be better than what those lenses I was using. 

Yes. But we have to be honest with ourselves. I’m pretty sure it’s the same thing for a sister that whether he is handsome or charming or well off or respected or whatever those are, that’s still our lens. I don’t think you can do faith until you admit the things which work against faith. Yes, or which distort faith and maybe when people who are making that decision can look through a point in time and look at that person today and use all of those lenses you’re just calling off, Ron, and filtering that person through that instead of what faith is. That is walking without seeing absolutely and we change. Yean, and I’d like to go back to that list and it’s not that we say, okay then it must be the faith thing to do to go on the opposite end of all of those things, right? 

That’s no better criteria. Yes, both of those are personal and their motivation. Yeah. Who is better to pick out your spouse than the person who made you? And again, I think we can view ourselves and we think we have a sense of our strengths or weaknesses. And we think we have a sense of that person’s strengths and weaknesses, but we don’t know that. 

And so again, just that sense of, I don’t know what that person’s going to do look like or be in 20 years? And am I willing to go down that road? I think a marriage by faith is one whereby in the process, God is the end of pursuit. And then on the other side of marriage, if he grants it, he is still the end. 

He’s still the one that makes it work, right? It’s marriage by faith, and that doesn’t just stop at the front of the church when you say I do. It’s continually marriage by faith. We’re talking about going where God wants us to go and still believing if things end in a difficult place, that he’ll be there. 

But not that he’s given a guarantee. It’s not a health and wealth doctrine. Right. It’s a faith doctrine. Marriage is imperfect people marrying imperfect people. There isn’t a person alive who could meet all your needs. You will still need others in your life, and there will be disappointments. And there isn’t a person who could match your fallenness perfectly, nor can you match somebody else’s fallenness perfectly. 

So, the expectation that somebody else will cheer you up or make you feel good all the time, meet all of your physical, financial or emotional needs, is not possible. That does not make marriage bad. You’re committed together to work on those things. But there needs to be some tempering of expectations. 

What do you do if the person you get the proposal from does not meet your expectations? Or like, how do you work through that? And that would, I think, come out with wise counsel, right? As a person walks with another individual who is able to see unrealistic expectations or expectations that mean way too much and weighing way too much in the decision-making process, right? 

Those would be flags for that person giving counsel to say, yeah, perhaps we’ve got an inflated view of this or that, right? Yeah. Perhaps you have an inflated view of marriage or perhaps you have an inflated view of a person setting them up for failure, really, because like Ron said, no one can match perfectly the expectations there, which is, I think, so exciting, right? 

Because Christ is that exceedingly abundantly answer, right? He even says he has an efficiency exceedingly abundantly, right? And when he then is our expectation, right, that is what allows marriage to work when our spouses let us down, which is going to happen. As we talk about this process, and we’ve already mentioned that process is a bad way to think about it, but as we talk about decision making in marriage, certainly it’s got to be unique to the person, right? 

As much as we have some guidelines, there’s got to be some uniqueness. Am I right about that, Ron? Yes. I’m not sure where all you want to go with it but let me just throw out a few things. One is, as elders and as leadership, that we discourage dating, that sense of, let’s get to know each other and see if we’d fit. So, I want to just put that on the table, it’s what I say doesn’t sound like I’m implying that, but there are circumstances that are different. I am thinking about somebody who’s 55 years old or 70 years old and has four married children and grandchildren. It’s not unusual for them to get counsel from their kids. 

If there’s trust there, it’s healthy to do that. It gets a little harder to sort through special circumstances. So, if somebody’s at a place in life where say a sister has established a really successful career in an area that she’s pretty independent both in terms of location and what the job is. Sometimes there are ways to find out from an individual elder to make an inquiry. 

I don’t think elders were opposed to this prior to a proposal just to know, do you have some idea where she’s at? You know, is there openness to consider that in the elders? We’re not going to tell too much. We’re not going to betray, but it’s not wrong to ask about inquiring. Those pieces, even some sensitivity to what somebody’s spiritual convictions are. 

And I don’t want to go into more detail, I don’t even know how to go into more detail, but engaging and looking at that, as opposed to, which is what makes us uncomfortable because we see the results of it, sending her an email and asking, would you consider moving to this area or, you know, engaging in that direct way that I actually think is more shocking. 

Because what is she supposed to do with that? Or the other way around, it depends on her to him. But that doesn’t mean there isn’t some way to talk that through. Or find out some information about things that are important, either to the person who’s bringing the proposal or the person that might be receiving it. 

Right now, I can’t think of more specifics than that. But engage in it. Another piece now, which I think relates to it, I don’t think I do this every time. But I’m pretty sure every elder is open to it, and that is if a proposal is brought and talked about, is that goes to a sister, if it’s going that direction, that there can be meetings. 

This isn’t a now you have it, go away and become cloistered until you have an answer. I’ve had several times when the sister said, you know, could we possibly meet? And that’s happened sometimes with parents, sometimes with me, we’re discreet about it and careful of those things. And I’ve actually found those to be kind of fulfilling. 

They’ve been enriching because finding out why he asked for me or what his goals are in life, it can give some, settledness or finality to something that feels like it’s going someplace, but just like to see where God is in it. But there are processes that have worked really well. Well, what I hear you’re saying, Ron, is that it’s not a prescribed way that, oh, this is step one and that’s going to follow the step two but looking at the situation and then deciding what the best way forward would be. 

A question that I would have and be curious, Ron, for you to answer is just why should people talk to their elder about this stuff? Yeah, it’s a fair question, and I want to be careful. It shouldn’t be just an elder, but it should be somebody that will be confidential and one that you can trust in the sense that it won’t go to someone else. 

I’m certainly not eliminating parents, nor another minister or older brother or older sister. So, I would use it in that big context. I just use elder because hopefully people’s perception is that’s a place that can be trusted. Not everybody has another place that they can trust. But I don’t think it’s sacred, like that’s only elder work. 

I would never say that. I’m sure there are people, I think I know of people who’ve sought that same counsel from another person, but somebody who has that same spiritual context, highly trustworthy, highly confidential. So yeah, not so much by title but by character or by role. But I would add on, Ron, I’d like your perspective on this. 

It very much is still tied to church, for example, right? It’s pretty odd if you talk to anybody else and say, I married so and so and have the church play such a large role in the passing of this to that and making it happen in announcement and that type of thing. So, that is, I think, unique to our denomination that it is still very much a church thing. 

And I would love to hear you speak about that. My comment is completely neutral. Yeah, and I trust you on that. I don’t think we can go to Scripture anyplace else and say, that’s how it has to be. I think it’s perhaps a practical way since we emphasize faith to that level. We have a tendency, I do, and I know many people I talk to do, we compare ourselves to the rest of Christianity today and say, well, that’s unique. 

And if we looked historically, it’s not unique. If we look in present Christianity, it’s unique. It seems odd in contemporary society where everybody makes their own decision. And if anybody’s going to be involved, it will be my best friend who I talked to, but it will be primarily me. And I will shop, if you will, which is maybe a euphemism for dating, but try on different relationships till I get to the place where I’m comfortable. 

That’s a very modern concept. So, the church specifically being the vehicle, I don’t know how unique that is historically. That might be unique historically also. But the idea that others are involved in the process. That there is counsel involved in the process, that it’s purposed and that it’s seeking what God wants, that is not unique. 

I think for practical reasons, it’s been done through the church and through the elder. I don’t think we can defend biblically that specifically, but I think we can very clearly, even going back to Isaac and Abraham, it involved others who were a part of that process. It was very much a community. Right. 

Marriage was impactful to community. So, I mean, even the old vows, right? Well, I don’t think it was a part of the vow. I think it was before the vow. It was before the vows, yeah. Before doing that, the priest or whoever it was said, is there anyone here who would object to it, right? Yeah. 

Does anybody here object to this marriage? Giving the community a chance to speak in to validate or annul this because it was so viewed. So, I don’t think your observations are probably too far off in saying from a historical perspective not a mystery but certainly today very much unique. 

Thanks, Ron, Amber, for your contributions, and to our listeners, thanks for being along. And we offer you, as always, resources on our website, accounseling.org, on topics ranging from decision making to marriage decision making and singleness. We trust those can be helpful. We also welcome feedback, comments, questions, topics. 

Feel free to contact us at our office email at [email protected]. Have a good day. 

Your elder cares very deeply for you and what’s happening to you. Sometimes we won’t have the right resources available. Maybe you can’t speak specifically to what you’re experiencing, but it doesn’t mean we don’t care. Just encourage you to think of your elder in that context and then to use them in that context as somebody who cares about what’s happening, seek his counsel and find out what kind of direction he can give or what kind of support he can give. 

Welcome back to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Today, we’re going to continue a conversation on the marriage decision making process. In our last episode, Amber Miller and Ron Messner helped us understand what marriage by faith looks like. 

And today we’re going to continue that conversation. Thanks for being along. Okay. So, as we think about having a proposal or proposing to a potential future spouse, I think we can quickly say, okay, this is going to be successful if it’s a yes, it’s going to be unsuccessful if it’s a no, right? I’d love to talk about success. 

Absolutely. I think the only metric that we use is announcement and moving toward marriage. And so, a lot of times people do assume that, hey, that equates success, when in reality, it is more about what has God done through the process in my heart. Is he glorified in the process is ultimately the goal in any part of our life. 

So Amber, you’ve just cast and put a whole new spin on this, that the proposal process, the decision-making process can end quite favorably with both a yes, as well as a no. And that is kind of hard for us to compute. I think part of the difficulty with that is if the proposal is following the usual direction and it is the brother bringing the request, he doesn’t ask until his desire for marriage is pretty high. And when brothers come and say, I can handle it either way. I just feel like I need to know. I think they mean it, but in their mind, they’re thinking of what marriage means. It’s a very desirable state at that point. So, I don’t know how to help them with this concept. 

I believe it’s true that a no can be successful or a yes can be successful. And frequently brothers will say. You know, I prayed about, I think I’ll be okay either way, but they’re not okay either way because it developed into a dream and anticipation that became part of a reality or else they wouldn’t have brought it. 

They’re not bringing a neutral request. They’re not just wondering; do you feel the same way I do? Yeah, they’re wanting to move into something, and I think for a sister who hasn’t yet moved into that vision, working through the process and coming to a yes means a success or working to a no and finding contentment where she is or realizing it’s not time can be a success. 

I think it’s more difficult for the brother to find success in the no. I think for sisters, it’s hard in that they may have let someone down or they may be confused, or they wonder why he asked. So, I’m not negating that piece, but the immediate intensity of a no is not success for brothers. So, my question is how to help them get that piece. 

And I’ve heard lots of different explanations, and I think they sound so hollow because that brother doesn’t feel that way. You can wrap it up in some kind of intellectual or biblical or spiritual statement about, you know, God’s just wanting to teach you his faithfulness or help you see through or providing some other direction. 

But internally he is feeling like she said, no, and I’m still alone. That’s what it feels like. That does not feel like success. Yeah. How to help. I feel lost with that. What usually is your counsel or what do you do with a brother? And that’s recent to know. I don’t have a good answer. So, I’ll share a few things when I bring a no, I think probably I ought to meet with him. 

I don’t always, so I’m just acknowledging that. I always tell them, let me know if you’d like to talk. And they never do, and they won’t because what are they going to say? What am I going to say? And I think they feel like whatever I have to say is going to be kind of hollow short of saying just, oh man, that stinks. 

You know, that might ring true for them, but it’s that connection or empathy that might be helpful. But as far as direction in the immediate, what do you do when you go through a loss? You hurt for a time, and you have it down as the grieving part of that. But I don’t find brothers overly willing to engage in that grieving process with someone. 

So, I feel pretty inadequate there. I’d be open to some good ideas. What you said is that it’s very hard for brothers, but yet it’s a no win for sisters. Like it really is a no or going through. Yeah. So, I’m not sure how to approach that. Well, one of the things, Amber, I would say, at least in observing or walking through some of that, is they’re forced to go through this failure, which we’re saying isn’t a failure, but you know, however we want to phrase it, involuntarily. 

Right. And I think that’s some of what I see, where a brother doesn’t bring a proposal till he is ready to be married, so he doesn’t expose himself to this process until he has some hope for what will be. She is forced into the process, not to say yes, but into the process of considering marriage, am I ready? 

Considering that person, considering what to say to it, it’s like, I didn’t even ask for this, and now I’ve got to deal with the fact that I’m going to be awkward when I’m around him, or I don’t know if his parents know, or I don’t know if I’ll get another proposal, should I have been more open minded, or it was all involuntary, and nobody likes to be put in those places, so I think that may not be the biggest element, but it’s one of the elements I sense that I didn’t sign up for this. 

Yeah, there’s no question that it can be a no win for sisters, whether it is a no or whether it brings pain to the other person because of that, because they are forced into that decision making process because they are questioning themselves. And you know, how did I attract this, so to speak? Is this how I’m perceived? 

I mean, just different questions like that start to formulate in a person’s mind, which again, I think is why it’s so important to have that counsel afterward to make sure that’s filtered through. From your experience then Amber, how do you work with an individual through that in terms of follow-up? What would be some of the content of your conversations?  

Coming to a place of peace about that and being willing to say, okay, what have I learned from the situation? I think that’s always a place I want people to land is just being able to look back and say, okay, God has been faithful through this process. Not saying that it wasn’t hard or hurtful, but God is faithful. And that there’s certainly things that I have learned about myself through this process. And so how can I use those and move forward for the future? And if we have secrecy, which we have for really important reasons now, with a no, of course you would want some secrecy there just to protect people. But with that comes just the lack of people having any wherewithal on where a person is at and the support that they need, which is tough.  

So, it sounds like the one thing we would collectively promote is not unlike the beginning of the process, where we encourage seeking counsel before being ready for the proposal. See the value in counsel after also try to articulate or think through, you know, what could be useful there and to try to avoid that seclusion for men or for women for different reasons. But to know that it could be helpful to talk through it. Nobody is going to take the hurt away. That’s not the point. 

I mean, nobody can do that when you go through other losses, but in other losses, we do process them. When someone dies, we process that. We have visitations or people drop a card or stop over or things like that. If somebody’s sick, if they lose a job, we have processes, we should at least encourage the people who go through the no, not the failure, but the no, that counsel could be helpful, not because it gives answers, but because it helps rebuild stamina. 

I mean, you’ve already related it. Both of you have mentioned the loss. Really, this is a loss. And the loss cycle in terms of how you grieve and how you might have a range of emotions. But if I understand it right, at the end of it, is a settled acceptance in the trajectory you’re going towards. 

And from both of your experiences, can that acceptance be obtained? And can peace and resolve even lie at the end of a no or unfortunate situation? Absolutely. I think that’s incredibly hopeful. Whenever we go through loss and difficulty, just to know that there’s a good spot on the other end, and I’m not there now, and I may not be there soon, but I will be there eventually. 

I think it’s good. Yeah. And two, it lessens the opportunity for Satan to come in and question or raise doubts that need to be rested. And so again, if you have someone that’s speaking truth into you as you’re processing that sense of rejection or that sense of, I wanted this to move forward. I thought I was doing right. Why does this still hurt so bad? Why do I not feel peace in this? It’s a way that someone is speaking truth. You know, I had a brother who shared with me, and I walked with him through the process, and he got a no and we continued to talk. And shortly after that, we had a funeral on a Tuesday, so we called off Wednesday church. 

Right. And it was interesting. He texted me or shared with me that he needed Wednesday night church. And I say that to say actually quite a hope. When we go to church and we get together, that is what we all need at so many points in our life. We just need fellowship. He didn’t necessarily need somebody to know what he was going through. He just needed to sit and listen and worship in that particular night. It didn’t happen. When perhaps too many of us were like, all right, free Wednesday night. I kind of like that. You know what I mean? And I think that it really impressed me to say a great deal of people care is happening. 

And just doing life with people, I could go to all the statistics in Washington, so that every proposal, the response to every proposal in all the marriages, and there are a significant number of nos. And the majority of those still exist down in the marriage column and in a relationship that I know they weren’t questioned. They are where they’re supposed to be. So, in terms of extending time, they would say that it worked out well. No, not all. I can’t say that about all. It’s not unusual for us to make decisions and have to rethink them, get a no to a job proposal or some other prospect. That’s life. It is a part of life, and most people don’t look back at what they didn’t get and regret that. 

God is faithful in walking them forward in what they do get, and finding joy in that, and seeing it as what God wanted for them. In the moment, you can’t take them there too quickly, but that is our goal, to get to that place of seeing that. It’s not the end of anything. Part of the process of walking there is a step in their whole life, right? And their whole view of life. And yet it’s so easy to tunnel vision into that and just feel like I can’t see outside of this hurt. I can’t see outside of this unmet expectation and that’s hard when you stay stuck in that spot.  

You get a person who’s been hurt, and sometimes we do see them marry away some other place. And I’m wondering if you would have advice, or would you want people to engage you? Does that make sense? Yes, it’s a fair question. I remember very distinctly early on as an elder, having one of those situations. It wasn’t about it being a second or a third time, but it was a little bit later in life and unusual circumstances and one person a member of our church, the other not, and they’re being open and sharing what was going on. 

And I was alarmed and frustrated and all the other things that young elders feel, old elders too. But I mean, at that point, and talking to one of my mentors who was still an elder at the time, but quite a bit older than I was. And he said, Ron, be careful that you don’t limit God or that you don’t decide what God wants. 

And he actually encouraged me to enter into the process. Okay. And help them sort through that, which is incredibly helpful to me. Yeah. And it ended in marriage. Yeah. So, what I hear you say is if a brother or sister has a thought or desire or whatever to feel like, well, Ron’s not interested in this, so I’m going to have to go rogue for this, but yet to bring you still, according to the former precepts of counsel, seeking God’s will, to bring you into that discussion and the elder brothers would welcome that type of discussion. 

I think they would, Matt. I think our level of comfort will vary based on how much it’s occurred, how long we’ve been in the eldership and how much confidence we have in that person. You know, there are people who are more careless in general about their walk of faith and those pieces, but I think they would engage in the discussion, and I would encourage people to do that. Not as an endorsement, it’s like do it however you want to, and then we’ll get involved in it. But if something’s happened that’s different than the norm, it would still be helpful for us to talk together. And there’s clearly people who are married today, and people don’t even know that they didn’t go through a standard engagement in terms of how it happened. 

But it was an elder who engaged with them, and either somebody who wasn’t from church or whatever the circumstances, and they did it carefully. They did it with counsel. They did it with good order. And it ended in a godly marriage. Yeah. But if those circumstances are developing, if you feel strongly God’s in that, we might not agree. I mean, our counsel might be this has to stop, but we’re not opposed to talking together and trying to provide counsel for that.  

How do you offer hope to people who have been through this process multiple times? I think the first thing, Amber, is that we’re careful not just in this podcast, but in general, not to imply that’s a frequent thing, but that it’s a real thing, not that that’s the norm, because the way I’m going to suggest we deal with that, relates to that. But I think it’s important that it has to do with the imperfectness of life. There are people I know who spent six years developing a career. They’re successful in school. They come up with the right degree and their grades are all good and they never use it. It never opens up. They happen to land in the marketplace during a recession and for two or three years, nobody’s hiring engineers or teachers or whatever the profession is, and then when it does open up, they’re stale, and they go to the new graduates. 

And so, they end up being in a different place than they were prepared for. That’s life. It has to do with the ebb and flow of life. And I don’t know any other way to process it than that to just say, I don’t think we need to blame God for this. And we understand it’s a very different place than what you anticipated. And we acknowledge that it can appear as though time has been wasted. Or contributions you wanted to make, which you didn’t have an opportunity to do. I think that for sisters who really wanted to be a mother and other people didn’t get the opportunity to do that, but that it is the brokenness and uncertainty of life. 

How do you find the support to deal with that? Not what went wrong, but where do you look for support? And I think it’s the same place you’d go if you lose your spouse young and you’re a single parent. Or through divorce and you’re a single parent or you become disabled or you discover at age 35 that you have MS or, you know, all of those things are like, what am I supposed to do with this? 

And there’s no answer. Where do you go for support? And it is the process of life that is sad, hard, broken, all those things. Job went through incredible pain and inaccurate thinking to the edge of heresy. I respect a lot where he went, but I mean, to the edge of it, before he was brought to the place of, my faith can’t be based on promises or understanding. 

It has to be just based on God’s existence only. Yeah. I think the hardest thing, Amber, is for them to hear that from a person who hasn’t been through it. I mean, I do not like hearing consolation from somebody who didn’t go through what I went through. And I’m not thinking that would be a particular thing. It just rings hollow to hear that. 

But I don’t think it changes the answer. There isn’t an answer to that. I don’t think, is there? Our natural instinct is to say, God didn’t love me as much, or I failed in pleasing God, or things that are not theologically sound. That’s where we just naturally go because we are flesh. But as you talk about those losses, those are all contained in the church. 

Yes. All of those losses are contained in the church, and I can only identify with a tiny sliver of them. Yeah. But I think there’s something powerful coming back to this earlier question of, what does the church have to do with this decision, right? But the church has very much to do with the cradling of it, before, during, and after because of Christ. I think that’s exciting. There is nurturing here. And where else would that be? You can join clubs and communes and all those kinds of things, but ultimately, the church is where God is most able to nurture the hurting. So, I think it speaks to that anywhere in the process. 

The church isn’t just a place to attend. That’s where you can hear a sermon or it’s a building, but the church body is a place to be nurtured. The believers. Yes. Here as we close, I’d like to give you both an opportunity to just share some parting thoughts. Amber, what would you have to share? 

So, there are a couple different things that come to mind. And one is just, again, I’d like to emphasize that success in the process does not equal engagement and that this whole process and opportunity can really benefit and help a person grow whether the process ends with a yes or a no. And then another thing too, is if you are a mentor or you are a friend or an elder or whoever, that’s listening to this, check in with the people you love. And don’t be afraid to ask those hard questions or to walk with them on the other side of a no, or again, that’s our context today, but to be able to walk through them during those difficult times in their life. Not letting Satan have opportunity to bring self-doubt or question or blame. And that can happen very easily, but rather to help them work through that in a helpful way, in a way that honors God. 

I appreciate that, Amber, because I feel like this conversation has elevated the need for that counsel and care that others provide and surround a couple that’s going through this. Yeah. And so, I think that’s great advice. Ron, how about you? Yes. Just a comment. I don’t know what the tone of this will sound like at the listening end, but I want to be careful that we don’t give an impression of this as a negative process or just having to deal with the difficulties related to it. 

The reason it maybe is because we’re talking about what do you do with a no and how do we help support that. And the reason is because when it’s a yes, you don’t need as much support. It is still, by and large, a joyful process, whoever’s involved in it. But we do want to be helpful on the other end, which is the reason for today’s talk. 

I think the two things that I said go back to encouraging people to think more about when we talk about a faith-based marriage, that it’s not an outline of specific activities, but that it is a description of a mindset and of a biblical, spiritual way to approach marriage. So, to do that first and then think through the steps and how those steps work and what they are. 

And the other is, probably each of us have a little different relationship with our elders, but I think I could speak for the Elder Body in saying that your elder cares very deeply for you and what’s happening to you. Sometimes we won’t have the right resources available. Maybe we can’t speak specifically to what you’re experiencing, but it doesn’t mean we don’t care. 

And it’s not just because they’re trying to get more married or less or anything like that. It’s just caring deeply about what happens to you in a personal way in an emotional kind of way. And just encourage you to think of your elders in that context and then to use them in that context as somebody who cares about what’s happening, seek his counsel and find out what kind of direction he can give or what kind of support he can give. 

I appreciate that. To our listeners, thanks a lot for being along. Thanks for being with us. Again, we have a number of resources on our website at accounseling.org regarding the marriage proposal process and things to be thinking about, maybe some help, some discussion aids. We would point you to those if they could be helpful. And we would also invite feedback, comments, questions. Feel free to email those at [email protected]. Thanks.