Apologetics Podcast Episodes

Welcome everybody to Breaking Bread. Good to have everybody along and great to have Brian Sutter with me today. Good to be here, Matt. Brian, our topic is apologetics. I want you to define apologetics but also include why this topic is and why this is a term that we should probably know something about. 

Yeah, so apologetic, the core is just to give a defense of something. So, when it comes to Christian apologetics, it is giving a defense of the Christian faith. You know perhaps from different perspectives you can give that defense but basically, there is logic and reason. So, when we look at the topic of apologetics, it’s huge. 

Volumes have been written by very talented, gifted people out there in this space. Okay. We’re not going to pretend to be them. That’s right. I mean, there are just brilliant minds out there and the depths of how they could speak into this are far beyond what we’ll uncover. 

Yeah, I think our heart here with this podcast series, Matt, would surely be helpful to the student who’s going into college and is going to be facing maybe some challenges there. That it would be helpful to the parent who’s trying to come alongside their college child that’s going to be wrestling through that, as well as all of us, as we walk through various doubts and challenges that arise in our own hearts, that it could speak into those too, as we no doubt all experience doubts, challenges, and we need support and help as we walk through those. 

Logic and rationale are higher levels of thinking and develop at a certain point in a youngster’s life. Yeah. And prior to that, there was a fair amount of rote memory, for example. So, children memorize things, and they learn things at the capacity they’re at early on. Then they start to employ that with rational thinking skills. 

So, as you look at that, you can see then why this issue of faith comes to play with a youngster and as we all grow up and wherever we’re at. Yeah. And I think with that, it should give parents courage that no matter what season of life you’re in or just the authority and confidence that no matter where a young heart is to speak truth into them and if it is at a very young age and it is just the rote memory that’s there. 

All the way up through college, where they maybe have faith, but it’s about them taking that on as their own faith. That’s where apologetics can maybe shift even more into helping that youngster when that higher level thinking is coming on board. They’re being able to think about abstract concepts and maybe getting challenged in ways they haven’t before. If they’ve got that foundation you poured into them that was just part of mom and dad, but now, it’s becoming their own, and that can be a challenge sometimes. 

Yeah, I’ve heard it said, and I think it’s great, that God does not have any grandchildren. That’s right. Either we are a son or daughter of his, or we are not. We don’t come in on mom and dad’s faith. Yeah. That’s a real issue, right? That is, we all come to a point of, do we believe? That’s right. Or do we not believe? Yeah, yeah. And I think we all go through different, what you might call crises of faith. But particularly in those younger years where that becomes a question that rises to the surface, is this something that I actually believe? Or is this mom and dad’s belief? 

Or maybe the church leader or grandma or grandpa or whoever, and they have to wrestle through those things. So, I think even whether it’s parent or leadership to be able to come alongside those hearts and say, hey, if this happens, proactively ask them if they would like to walk through that with you. I’m here. I may not have the answers, but yeah, I want to know what’s going on if you’re open to sharing that. This is something that we’re willing to step into and talk about faith and things that are hard to believe or talk about. And I know even from my own life, I can look back to seasons where I cycle through and work through issues again. Yeah. And work through issues of faith.  

Now you tell me if I’m okay, but I’ve taken that as the normal process of spiritual growth in terms of our faith. Yeah, certainly. I would agree. And a lot of people who have their pulse on Christendom and culture would say that Europe is very post Christian, and a lot of the reason for that is that intellectualism or rationalism basically have evolved beyond the need for religion. 

And pundits would say that America is right on the doorstep of that. Right, for sure. And I think that gives us good reason to at least step back, take pause, and say what are we going to do to equip our own heart, as well as particularly our youth and those going into the universities and things like that, to think through some of those pieces, whereas, you know, maybe we didn’t have to, or our parents’ generation never faced those sorts of things. 

And there wasn’t quite a need there but certainly is today. And it is kind of scary to think about where that’s heading. Yeah. I mean, I think that’s pretty clear too, you know, 40 years ago, the main current was a Christian worldview direction, right? Whether you’re a Christian or not, you came to the same conclusions about various moral behaviors. 

Right, but a lot of that’s being rocked today. We simply are not in that Christian worldview mainstream anymore. No, it’s one of those things we have certainly shifted into a postmodern worldview, and you can think of the postmodern worldview is essentially trying to say Is there any absolute truth and really coming to the conclusion that there’s not, that truth is relative and it’s kind of up to each individual person. 

And that’s in direct contradiction to the Christian faith and direct contradiction to what you’re saying there. You know, a generation ago, there would have been consensus and most of that consensus would have fallen right in line. at least with the moral and behavioral teachings of the Scriptures. So, what we’re really saying with apologetics is a defense of the faith. 

And so really what we’re saying is faith can be defended, right? Yes. And it seems to be that might be a little bit of a departure on what we think about what faith means. Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. Can you speak to that? Yeah. And I think that’s a great point. And it’s one of those things that certainly it’s valid to be able to say you believe because you believe. 

You know, and I think that’s a very reasonable thing, but if you’re talking to someone who’s not grown up in a Christian home, who doesn’t have any experience or background with praying around the table and seeing some of those prayers come together and that experience, you may need logical or philosophical arguments to be able to say, this is why there’s more than just experience here, it’s more than just I believe because I believe, there are other things as well that we can lean on. 

You know, I should just believe without evidence, isn’t that faith, but yet you’re suggesting that I should consider the evidence for faith and have that in my repertoire. Right, exactly, and just allowing for the possibility that somebody might need that. You may not, and that is wonderful, I think, what a gift from the Lord, if you just believe and you don’t need that evidence. 

I think that is so exciting and that’s to be cherished and valued, but also to make space for the reality that your neighbor may need some evidence. Or, you know, if your child is in college and they’re getting challenged by a professor, that they may feel like they need some evidence to be able to answer some of those questions. 

But certainly, apologetics is not saying that faith isn’t important or undermining that in any way. I’d like to linger a little bit on that, Brian, in terms of as a Christian, what should apologetics mean to us? How should we use it? Because I think a lot of times in the discussion of apologetics, that’s a little bit glossed over. 

Yeah. And we really don’t pause there. And I think you’ve hit on some of those things about my faith standing on its own and what part evidence plays and what part the argument plays in my faith. I mean, after all, didn’t Jesus say, blessed are those who believe, who don’t see, to Thomas. Right. And then he also says that, hey, if you’ve got to believe for the work’s sake, then go ahead and believe for the work’s sake as kind of second-rate belief. Does that make sense? Sure, sure. Yeah. One of the things you and I have touched base on before is just this thing that we don’t want to use apologetics to prop up our faith and, you know, that can get us into trouble if we’re running around saying, okay, there’s some evidence here and there’s evidence over here. 

And that all may be helpful in the moment, but what happens in a new research comes out in a year and it sounds, is a little bit different, or you hear an angle from somebody that’s something you haven’t heard before, and it can be pretty dangerous to have your faith build up or propped up by apologetics, but certainly to have it other way around where we have a foundation of faith and apologetics can bolster that or stand on top of that. 

And give rise to worship then. Yes. And I wonder if that could be a lens as believers, we should be thinking about it. Study and apologetics for the sake of worship. And to your point, exactly. I had that experience as a young person. I remember hearing one of the defenses of God is that the bumblebee or the honeybee couldn’t fly. 

Sure. Okay. And how it mystified scientists, right? And it was a tremendous realization of how complex it is. And so, as a young person, I had that belief. But fortunately, my faith wasn’t in that fact. Yeah. Because that fact just recently got rewound. And scientists have discovered why they can fly. And instead of it eroding my faith because, well, now what? 

You know, actually, I find it so fascinating because they’re studying God’s creation because they want to create microscopic bees that fly around with video and all these things. Anyway, they wanted to use it, but there was a very big departure and difference between that fact being what props up my faith and that fact being an article for worship. Because that point hasn’t changed. I still worship God for the mastery of the bee.  

Yeah, that’s a great example, Matt, of what we’re talking about here. And we just want to encourage people that as we walk through life, there’s going to be things that just are beyond man to understand. But God has also given us minds. 

And our understanding of the world is continually increasing and shifting and changing. But that’s a gift from God. And as things are found out or things are seen through a different light, the world or the secular wisdom may tell us, well, that, again, tells us we don’t need God or God doesn’t exist. But the contrary, I think, can be true for the believer who says, this is amazing. Look what God’s shown us and how complex his world is and we’re just finding this out and he’s known this forever. And we are continuing to learn as his creation, right? Yeah. What a phenomenal thing that we are going to continue to learn because as long as God is elusive in all that he has done beyond our knowledge means that is going to be the margin that we have to grow and learn in. 

So, we can rejoice in these discoveries. Exactly. You get into a discussion with somebody, if you do that for long enough, you’re going to run into somebody who’s smarter than you, who has more understanding than you, who has thought about something that you haven’t considered, and if your whole faith is built on, well I’ve always got the answer and I can always out argue them, then what do you do on that Saturday morning when you run into somebody who has something you haven’t really thought about. 

And I think that’s brilliant to think about, Brian, because that’s exactly what we see is the larger church decries losing their faith in their twenties or their late teens as they go to higher education, right? I think that’s what research and Christian research suggests. And a lot of that, I wonder, is exactly what you’re saying, Brian, is if our faith has been propped up by these arguments that now get unwound as soon as somebody of higher credentials has a more persuasive argument. Right. So, to your point, what we’re talking about here is not on individual arguments. 

We have to have a larger lens for apologetics than the sum total of a bunch of arguments. Yeah. Yep. There are going to be times that you’re going to be awoken to some reality or truth that’s outside of what the paradigm you’ve ever thought of. And again, that’s the beauty of growing and becoming sanctified and understanding God more fully. 

And that star that you now see that wasn’t there before, it doesn’t necessarily have to contradict everything you’ve had. It can be a fascinating thing to think about. How does this fit into the picture of God and his reality, even though it blows my mind? Well, Brian, I think our listeners are saying, boy, you guys are doing a great job talking out of both sides of your mouth. 

At one end, we’ve talked about how it beautifully doesn’t have to make sense, and we can say we don’t know. On the other end, we’ve entitled this, apologetics, which is the defense or the evidence that we know it’s right. Yeah. Anyway, so now I’m going to kick it to your court. Yeah. Well, I think that’s it exactly. We are speaking out of both sides there and we acknowledge that. 

And I think we want to step into apologetics and what that means and how to give a defense, but we just wanted to make sure too, that we don’t set people up to say that you prop your faith up by apologetics solely and to see that that can get you into trouble. So that makes sense. 

You know, what comes to me a little bit is putting a puzzle together. Yeah. Right. And you start putting a puzzle together. You don’t see anything, right? You could be asked a question about, is it going to be this? Is it going to be that? Or how can this be possible? And you’re like, I have no idea. Then all of a sudden, another piece falls into place. And it’s like, well, I do believe it’s going to make sense because that one sure did. And now that one sure did. And we’re going to go our whole life without the picture complete. But faith is that there is a picture there known by God. Right, yeah. Does that make sense? It does. 

And I think from that perspective, one of the things I would just encourage the believer is just that for us to spend time in the Word is such an important piece of the puzzle. I mean, if we have a strong picture of the Scriptures and that’s a foundation that we read as true, and that begins to captivate our heart and mind. 

I mean, that’s fundamental. That’s going to be the best apologetic thing that we can do is spend time in the Word, getting to know about it, having our hearts changed and molded by it. In fact, the Word even says that faith cometh by hearing and hearing by the Word of God. We’ve made a good start on the topic of apologetics, and hopefully a foundation has been laid for the topic, its purpose, its role in the life of a believer. 

But there’s a lot left to say, and I hope you, our listeners, continue with us in upcoming episodes as we celebrate the evidence for faith and understand what a difference it makes in our lives. Have a good day. 

The study and defense of the many reasons for faith is called apologetics, and this is the topic of conversation. Welcome back to Breaking Bread. I’m Matt Kaufmann, and Brian Sutter is back with me in the studio. In the last episode, Brian, we laid a foundation for thinking about apologetics, and today we want to pry into the topic a bit more and hopefully make it more accessible. Help us understand some of the finer points of apologetics. 

So, if you think about apologetics, there’s been maybe four main camps or modalities that people would come at apologetics from and one of them is called the Presuppositional, and they would basically say that you have to have a starting point. How you know what you know is really going to largely determine what you believe. 

And for us as believers, our starting point is Scripture. And I think that’s such an important piece for us to think about that. What is your starting point? And if it is the Word, then there are a lot of good arguments and reasons that you’re going to filter the evidence. 

When you go to the Grand Canyon and you see the rock formations, you’re going to filter all of that through what the Bible says about creation and what the Bible says about God, and the person who’s not starting with that same assumption is going to filter that through a very different lens, but you at least know where you’re starting from. 

And I think that it’s important for us that we have a strong starting point. And that speaks my language, Brian, because that’s very mathematical. Okay. Mathematics is deductive, which is exactly what you said, presuppositional, right? You start with an assumption. Geometry is built on these axioms. There are basic assumptions you cannot prove. 

Yeah. You cannot prove that two points determine a line. Nobody can. Sure. But everybody says that’s reasonable faith. Right. And then from these reasonable faiths, you start to piece together geometry, life, airplanes, boats, right? Right. And I think that’s so great. We totally do it in these many areas of our life. 

Deduction, assumption, faith are so intertwined, right? Yeah. Political affiliation is very much deducted, right? We have these, we do this. Yes. Oh, yeah, all over and we don’t even realize it. It’s just like a human being you just have to put together a view of reality. And I think it’s okay for us to know that what we’re starting with is Scripture and there’s not a better place to start. And as we would engage somebody who’s starting from a different place that can be in the back of our mind, where are they starting from? 

How are you comfortable with the Scriptures being your presupposition? Yeah, there’s such a robust amount of research and exploring the Scriptures that has happened that for the believer that looks into that, there is a great deal of evidence that says, yeah, the Scriptures can be trusted. It’s an ancient document, but if the Scriptures can’t be trusted, then you’re basically throwing everything out that’s historic and saying, if I don’t trust that, you’re not going to trust this writing or that writing. And pretty much you’ve undermined all of history. Could you give me a list, short list of different touch points to say, this would be one way of evidence that the Scripture is true. 

Yeah. just the prophecies that are there. So, you look at Isaiah and the prophecies that are in Isaiah as accurate as they are about what happened 700 years later with Jesus is astounding. Like how that would all be put together and be able to be that old and that accurate. I mean, at least should give you pause. 

Sure. You know, I think another one is archaeology. I think they continue to find that the dates and the leaders and the people and the places are checking out. Yeah. Right. That would be a huge red flag if people and places were all a little bit mystical. Yes. And then we could maybe say, all right, this is mythology, like Greek mythology and the rest. 

Right. Yep. And you’ve moved into one of the other modes then of apologetics, evidentialism, and that basically is using archaeology and those things to say, boy, if an archaeologist digs this up, a lot of times they will actually go to the Old Testament Scriptures to figure out what that means, what it fits into, and it helps them make sense of it because it’s a reliable text. 

And I think that’s just, again, another kind of, what do you do with that? If you say the Bible’s not true or you throw this whole thing out, it’s hard to do that in that situation. I think too, if you look at just how the Scriptures are put together and the reliability, you’ve got so many different manuscripts and they all say the same thing and the critic might say, this text is a little bit different than this and it’s amazing. The people that do the research on that are amazed at how reliable and how consistent the Bible is.  

Yeah. I remember hearing a doctor of, I don’t know what you call it, but a person in this space, talk about how he would have his students the Greek and they would just pound out the translation. And his whole point was. They’re all going to have something very similar. They’re all going to hit it. They’re going to all hit the message. And I think that’s tremendously exciting, right, to your point. 

It is. You know, I was listening to something, it’s been a while ago now, but I think it’s Bart Ehrman, who’s a huge critic of the Christian faith as well as the Scriptures. They were trying to mock Christianity a bit and they were interviewing him and saying, you know, oh, what do you think the Christian Scriptures actually said in the original? 

And he looked at him and he said, well, I think there’s enough evidence that says they probably said exactly what they say today. Really? Yeah. It’s just like, wow. You know, somebody who is that much of a critic realizes that’s something you don’t touch. Right. Yeah. 

You don’t have to believe it. You can say that it’s wrong, but there’s so much accuracy and so much consistency across the manuscripts. But don’t discount it on transcripts and right interpretations. Yeah. That is just not a place you go. Yeah. That’s great. And so, another place of apologetics and another mode would be just classical apologetics. 

This is probably the one that some people are more familiar with. And this is basically where you get into the philosophical arguments you know, a Ravi Zacharias, and if there’s no God, then there’s no moral law. And if there’s no moral law, then who are you to say that I can’t steal your car. 

And it’s exciting to me to think that in these different spheres, whether you’re talking about evidence, history, archeology, or you’re talking about philosophy or you’re talking in any of these realms, that there’s good, solid reason and evidence for the Christian faith and that the Christian faith has won a right to be at the table of ideas. Yeah. I don’t know if anybody can discredit that. You know what I mean? Yeah. It’s a contender. And a major one. Yeah. And it just reminds me too of a few years ago, Ken Ham had a debate with Bill Nye. And one of the big things in the secular community, they were mad at Bill Nye for doing this debate because they’re like, you’re just giving it credibility. 

Why would you even do that? But I think to your point, this is endured and that there’s something to people believing and having faith in something that they can’t even fully wrap their mind around. And I think that’s exciting too. You know what? I had a professor in college, in my master’s work, and he was a physicist, and we had some great discussions back and forth to each other, and a lot of them revolved around faith, and worldview, and science, and all of that type of thing, and he told me, Matt, I don’t fault you for what you believe. 

I can connect those dots, and I can connect them to the point where your conclusions make sense. He didn’t look at me as a fool. Right. In fact, he respected my conclusions. But he couldn’t allow himself to go there. Just a fascinating conversation because had I not had that perspective and had that interaction with this professor, I would have thought that in all of academia things were crazy. 

Yeah. That’s interesting. And that’s simply not the case. Right. It’s a good example of being able to have a reasonable conversation with people who maybe are in very different places, but you can do so in a respectful way. And if you can engage in a way that is full of care and compassion and, you know, knowledge that it may not persuade them, but they can at least respect where you’re coming from. 

I would like to make this point too, Brian, because I think it’s important as we send our young people to college. We need to send them with the expectation that they’re going to meet very smart people. Yes. And they are very winsome. Yes. And I think we do them disservice when we paint these people out as demons with horns. 

Right. These are God image people, right? I think our faith gets unwound as soon as who we thought was a demon turns out to be a great guy. And persuasive and smart. Yeah. Instead, they should go to college knowing they are right. And then engage with them. I think you’re right. We do a disservice sometimes if we paint this picture and then they interact and they find out these people are people. And maybe they’re not as awful as we thought. And they look like just you and me. Yeah. And that can really be a spinner. But if we can set them up to say, yeah, they are going to be winsome, they are going to be smart, and you know what? They’re going to be nice. And they might still be wrong. 

And remember, we’re talking about a puzzle with all the pieces not put in place. Yeah. The larger lens makes sense. And God gives us enough pieces so that we know it makes sense, but not all the pieces to make all the sense. Does that make sense? Yes. Not sure it did. Oh, and I think in that regard too, for us as Christians, that at times we’re going to look foolish and to some degree we have to be okay with that. 

When somebody comes up to you and says, now you’re telling me that you really believe a man was swallowed by a large fish. You’re telling me you believe that. Like that’s real. Yeah, I do. I don’t have any option. I believe the Scriptures are true and that’s my book. I remember this completely. I was having a conversation with a janitor at the school that I taught. Yeah, and I got midway through the gospel, Brian, and I was like, this is foolishness to man. Yeah. Okay. And I need to be comfortable with that. Yeah, exactly. I think that’s such an important thing for us to remember. So, you mentioned classical, evidential, and presuppositional. 

And then there’s one other one that some would say actually isn’t necessarily a camp of apologetics. They would almost say it’s anti-apologetic to some degree. And it is Fideism. And basically, it says that you don’t need any kind of argument. You believe it because it’s true, and faith comes from faith, and that’s that position. 

Okay. And I think, too, for some who’ve not run into arguments against their faith, or somebody who has not challenged them, that’s probably where they’re going to come from. You just believe because you have faith and God’s blessed you with the gift of faith. And again, I think that makes sense. 

That was Martin Luther’s approach. And that makes sense. Let’s speak to this because I think I’m going to paint a picture and it can go different directions and all of this, but let’s say a mom and a dad are very much this, would you say fideism? Yeah. So, that’s the way they interpret things. But their son or daughter is not. Right. And then we have this difficulty to work out. And it’s just, come on, just believe, why are you asking these questions? Right. Help us with that. And I think that it is such an important point for parents to think about if that’s where you’re at. 

It’s very possible. And two, if you’re not careful, sometimes it can come across to your college child, that there aren’t reasons for faith or that you just get frustrated with their questions. And the Christian faith is not a place for questions. And so again, I would say. Great, you believe because you believe, but also try to have some room to dialogue with your son or daughter who’s saying, you know what, somebody just asked me why I believe this, or they’re saying how can homosexuality be wrong when it seems so good. 

And those kinds of questions will be easy to get frustrated with if your approach is, well, you believe because you believe. And so, you may want to step back, be willing to tolerate questions, even if they don’t necessarily make sense to you and you don’t necessarily need the answers yourself, your child may benefit from at least having that dialogue with them. 

Yeah, and that’s helpful. And I think if we go back then, because as I’m thinking, well, if the answer is going to be some highfalutin argument, then as a parent, I am in no place to help my child out. But as you had mentioned there about knowing God, there’s certainly some comfort, I think, in going back. to him. Yeah. And I think in that regard, you can even pull on the presuppositional situation too, that you’re probably fairly comfortable in the Scriptures and that can always be the thing that you go back to and try not to get frustrated with the onslaught of questions. 

But yeah, use your wisdom, use your experience. The Scriptures say this, and that’s why I stand where I stand. And you know what? I remember too, the prophecies and all of the evidence of the old manuscripts, it just gives me reason to believe. And I think as long as we don’t cast the concept to our children that the Christian faith is a deck of cards. 

Right. And I think sometimes that’s what they’re pushing and prodding. Yeah. Mom and Dad, what if I pull this card? Is this thing all going to come crashing down? And so, I might not know all the answers. But that house isn’t coming down. That’s right. You know what I’m saying? Yes. 

And I can convey that faith. It’s not coming down. And I might not be able to answer all your questions. But I’m willing to climb on top of this house. Yeah. And that is something that’s worth casting. Yeah. And I think that too, sometimes your child or whoever you’re talking with may not need an answer. They may need you just to patiently listen and see your settledness and your willingness to consider those things. Even if you don’t have an answer, that may be all you need to do. And so, we don’t need to panic, or you don’t need to panic if you don’t know right off hand, or you don’t have a solid answer for that. 

Not panicking and being willing to engage in that dialogue and being present with them goes a long way. Well, let me put this to you, Brian. Okay. There are some listening right now and many who are not that would, that would have this like, man, I’ve. I was baptized 10 years ago and now I’m kind of wondering and going through this alone because they’re like, man, Christians shouldn’t do that. 

So, what I want you to do is normalize this a little bit. Should we just expect as believers that we’re going to come to crises of faith in our life? I would say yes. In my mind, one of the ways that I would define it is I would say faith is not the absence of all doubt. Part and parcel of faith is going to mean there are going to be some questions, there are going to be some uncertainties, and at different times in life, some of those may intensify and I think those are hard moments, but those are wonderful moments where faith is refined and you see people even in the Scriptures going through those times of doubt and question. 

The trial of your faith being much more precious than gold that perisheth. Yeah. Though it be tried with fire, 1 Peter. Yes. So, if we realize that faith is center to our sanctification, it seems to be a bit of an expectation then, that my faith is going to need that maintenance. That it’s going to go through those times, and I think it’s so encouraging to me as I read through the Psalms, and it’s such a place where you see the human heart aching and questioning and wondering. 

David’s thrown in the towel, Matt. That’s right. He’s thrown it all in. Yeah. And then you get to the end of the Psalm, and it’s changed. Yeah. And I think too, to your point here, Matt, that I would just encourage people, if that’s the spot you’re in, to continue to spend time in the Word, continue to pray, and to reach out to the body of believers that God’s put around you, whether that’s the peer in the young group, or if it’s the older brother and sister that you know or are sitting next to, or mom or dad, they may not be able to fully relate, but a lot of them are going to have experienced similar questions, or similar challenges, or they’re going to be able to walk through that and you’re going to need that. 

You’re going to need that. That is so true. And as we draw this episode to a close, Brian, I might use that point to say, for those who are struggling with faith, I hope these episodes give them courage to reach out for assurance. And for those who are reached out to, I hope these episodes equip and motivate them to receive the questions. 

Brian, thanks for your insights. And to our listeners, thanks for listening. 

Welcome back everyone. Today Brian Sutter is back with me for our third and final episode in our apologetics series. We pray these talks have helped strengthen your faith. Brian, when we peel back the onion of faith, at the very core we find God. So, let’s talk a little bit about God. He’s far too expansive to sum up in a few words. But certainly, there are a few qualities that are worth mentioning. Yeah, and I think one that comes to mind that you’ve spoken quite a bit on this past year is just God being immutable and that he doesn’t change. And what a great thing to rest on a God who is immutable, who doesn’t change. 

And I’ve come to see how critical that is, and we read that throughout the Scriptures, I am the Lord, I change not, he says. But all of his other qualities are then put into force because he doesn’t change. Yeah. It would be a scary thing to think if that wasn’t part of who God was. That who knows who he’ll be tomorrow. Yeah. Or what those other characteristics will look like. And yeah, I think that’s such a strong thing. And when he promises generationally. He’s unchanging, right? Yeah. That opinion and that promise is enduring. Certainly, we find ourselves in a covenant relationship, right? 

Suppose he was a changing God. What would a covenant be? It wouldn’t be worth anything, but what a comforting thing if we can just spend time and know that if God says, X, it is true. It’s not going to change tomorrow and it’s not going to change in 10 years. Because he has the all-knowing foresight to say it and have it be said. I’ve made this example and it’s so true. Right. Some of the biggest meltdowns we have in our family are because I’m not immutable. Yeah. Dad, you said. Right? Have you ever heard that? 

Oh, my word. Dad, you said. Yes. But you said. Right. And you know what? They’re absolutely right. I did say we’re getting ice cream. And you know what? Something happened. Kid threw up in the back of the car. I want to go home now. You know what I mean? I didn’t know that was going to happen. Right. 

But God sees through the ages. And he’s able to say, this is right, this is wrong, this is what I’ll do. Yeah. And how exciting it is for us as believers that we know the end of the story. Yeah, and so when we read about things ahead, we can know that’s true, and that heaven is real, and that victory does come. We don’t have to wonder how the story ends. God’s team wins. And that’s not going to change, even though it looks around us at times like, I wonder who’s winning here. Yeah, and then when you set his unchangeable immutable quality next to what we’re talking about here, philosophy and arguments of the day. 

Yeah. I mean, they just drip with fad, don’t they? Yeah, and changing because this is the issue today. I’ve thought this before. Everybody’s got questions they’ll ask God. When I get to heaven, I’m going to ask God this question. I think God kind of chuckles. And when we come and ask our questions to God, he’s going to like nudge Gabriel and say, hey, Gabriel, what decade was this person from? You know what I mean? Or what century was this person from? Because so many of our questions and issues of this conversation that we’re having here may not have made sense in 400. Right. And just as you’re talking about it, that makes me think of one of my college professors when I was going through my master’s degree. 

And he said that he was a scientist, and he just thought that was admirable, you know, and he said he remembered walking across the stage and one of his professors who he just really admired the most, shook his hand and said, well, congratulations, your degree is out of date. You know, it’s just like what you do, what you know, has now changed. 

And you’re going to have to always be revising and updating. Yes. And putting addendums on things. That’s great. And God’s not that way. He never updates. There’s no point two version. So, give me a quality now that we know that’s unchanging that should bring us a great deal of courage and comfort. God is just. Okay. That we can know. That’s just who he is. He is a just God that says what he will do and that will be right and wrong will be dealt with. That’s just who he is. You know what, I think that’s a perfect example of this puzzle. 

Okay. There are parts of that puzzle that I can’t make heads or tails of. Yeah. And a lot of times the antagonist will come on this issue of judgment. How about this person? How will that person be judged? Right. How would this situation or that era and time place? And it’ll make your head spin. 

Yeah. Right. Now, there’s enough of this puzzle that I do believe God is just in what he’s written in the Word, in my interactions, right? A lot of these pieces. And there are some blanks in that puzzle. But I get a great deal of comfort knowing that he’s just. Yeah. 

And that all of those people’s situations age. On judgment day, all are going to be like, man, that judgment on me was spot on. Yeah, right. And that’s where it can be difficult if you’re getting challenged from somebody about a specific situation and they’re asking you to give the judgment and we don’t have to do that, but we can be confident that if we saw it through God’s eyes and we had all those pieces of the puzzle, and we knew what God knew, it’s going to look and it’s going to be just. We can know that, even though in the moment, sometimes that can be difficult to sort through. Yeah. That’s good. Another one that comes to mind is just God’s goodness. God is good. Even when hard things happen and things that we don’t understand happen, we can be confident that God is good. 

Yeah, and I think that really speaks to the hope that we would want others to see in us. That even in the needy areas of our life, they are redeemed, that God redeems those needs, whether it’s an addiction or whether it’s a wayward child or whether it’s a failed enterprise. The community, the neighbors see that although this situation is as dark as it is, as hard as it is, there is hope here, and there’s reconciliation that’s happening, and redemption, how do you explain it? Yeah, absolutely. Yep. And, and it just makes me think, even as you’re talking about Peter, and this is a common verse that’s used with apologetics is to give an answer for the hope that’s in you. 

And I think that for us as believers to know that one of the strongest apologetics we can have is to have a strong hope. Hope in something that’s big and that is sure. That’s exciting, I think, as a believer to be able to say that I can rest in a God that’s big enough to answer these things and figure these things out, and it doesn’t all rest on my shoulders. 

You know, one of the great fathers and theologians, I don’t know if it was Augustine or others who said that there’s a hole, right? God has created us with a God-sized hole in our heart that we will try to fill in some manner but can only be filled by him. And so, knowing that everybody has that void, that hope then speaks to that. 

Right. You know, as they say, how did you get that filled? Yes. And I think particularly, as we move into a culture that’s moving more postmodern and saying, yeah, there is no truth, that the Christian hopefully really stands out in that. And because they do believe in something, and they do believe there’s right and wrong and they do believe there’s truth that their lives and their hearts are able to reflect settledness that the unbeliever does not have. And that in and of itself can help bring about discussion and hopefully sharing of the gospel, which I think apologetics really are geared to do. It’s not the gospel itself, but it’s tools that hopefully help prepare the heart to hear the gospel.  

Okay. Brian, I think whenever we’re thinking in this space of apologetics, if we were to say, everybody give me one word that comes to mind when we say apologetics. I think debate would probably be one of those things. And we’re not trying to prepare ourselves for debate, but I’m just saying, it’s on our thinker. We’re like, oh, I need to know this for some sort of argument. And we’re not trying to elevate argument or debate here. But as we engage people, are there some things we should be thinking about?  

Yeah. That’s a great starting point even, Matt, just for us to realize that as we engage people in dialogue on our belief or Christianity, that’s a good thing to do. We’re not suggesting that it has to turn into an argument and because to be able to do that well; to have that dialogue you’re going to have to be able to stay reasonably calm. Yeah, otherwise if you get panicked or this looks like it’s going to be a fight, fear starts to take over and then you’re not going to be able to even have that conversation. 

Yeah. Right. And I think 90% of what we’re talking about isn’t those situations. They’re just between my professor and me. We’re talking, or my neighbor and me. Right. We’re having a discussion here. And we’re just sorting through these things. So, just try to think about what that looks like. 

Yeah, what does that look like? What are some take homes? And okay, that’s a lens to look through when I engage. Well, I think one simple thing to keep in mind is to use what you and I’ve mentioned together is to just have good manners. Just being nice can go a long way. So, if we are to debate, let me win the loved one, right? 

That’s right. Let me win the kindness debate, right? As we walk away like, well that Christian’s kind, that’s for sure. Yeah, that’s right. I’ve heard it said that if you watch two people talking, the one who’s getting loudest and the most frustrated is probably the one that’s losing the discussion. 

And so, yeah, just to be gentle and kind. The goal is not to make anybody feel foolish or to look foolish. Listen when they’re talking and take your turn when you do talk, make sure that you don’t go on for an hour and don’t cut them off. Let them finish. Acknowledge that’s an excellent point or a compliment. 

Right. Thinking and working through issues. Giving eye contact. There’s some low hanging fruit here on interpersonal skills. So, if nothing else, to keep that in mind, I want to be kind. I want them to walk away and feel like it was a pleasant conversation, that they felt heard, but they also ran into a thoughtful person who was able to articulate themselves as well. 

I mean, what a wonderful thing if you could just accomplish that. Yeah. Love is huge. And we’ve all been talked to by people from door-to-door salesmen to evangelists from all kinds of shade and stripe and color. I remember having one couple come to my door and they were just up and down and pushing it. And I just said, stop, can I just stop? And they stopped and I said, do you love me? And they looked at me blinking. And then they said yes, and I said I’m sorry I didn’t feel like you did, and it changed the tenor of the whole conversation at that point? Yeah, because you really have no palate to listen to anybody who doesn’t love, right? 

I mean, do you? No, but you know the famous saying that everybody’s heard. People don’t care how much you know until they know how much you care. There is something to that. And I think there is so much truth and the reality that if people can walk away feeling loved and cared about, that’s a great defense of the Christian faith. 

Yeah. So, mind your manners. Another thing that we’ve already touched on is just, at times you are going to have to say, I don’t know. And you’re going to just need to be comfortable with at times not knowing. One of those things that I’ve realized years ago as I watched a fair amount of debates and things like that between Christians and Atheists, and it was always fascinating to me that one of the things that I felt like the Atheist was much more comfortable doing than the Christian was just saying, I don’t know, or giving an answer that the Christian felt like didn’t make any sense, but that didn’t bother the Atheist. They were just content with that, where that seemed to really make the believer more nervous. 

And I think it would be wise for us to know that no matter what worldview you’re operating from, it doesn’t mean that you’re going to have every answer for every question that arises. And that’s okay. It’s not comfortable, but that’s part of whatever you believe. But as long as we’re working under the lens that we’ve mentioned before makes sense. 

I just don’t have all the parts to make it make sense in some ways, right? That’s helpful, right? It is. And I think from the Christian perspective, where we believe in a God who’s beyond our comprehension to understand, who has created all these things that we can’t grasp, that gives us a lens through which to view even that which we can’t answer whereas other worldviews don’t have that. 

I don’t know and I don’t know where we say, I don’t know, but my God’s big enough for all that. But we shoot ourselves in the foot sometimes by trying to grasp at straws and make some sort of loosely defended argument on something simply because we don’t want to say, I don’t know. 

And then we do ourselves a disservice. Right. You can dig yourself into a hole that just keeps going and keeps going and before you know it, you’re sunk and it’s good and wise to say that. And then on the other side of that though, to be thoughtful about questions. And Jesus asks questions continually. 

Yeah. To say, I don’t know, that’s a great one here, but what do you think about this? And I think in that kind of going back to Mind Your Manners, if they say they don’t know, and it feels like a really important point, instead of rubbing their nose in that, that’s a great point to step back and say, well, maybe you ought to consider that. 

And maybe that’s their takeaway instead of having them dig their heels in, that you let them marinate on that one. That’s great, Brian. What’s another point? Yeah, I think one other thing might be just that you try to hear, is there some or one thing that they’re trying to communicate? 

Is there one thing that they’re really asking behind some of the questions and you being able to really try to clearly communicate into that one thing that maybe you hear them asking or wondering about being really precise on those points that you want them to take home. I think that’s a really helpful thing because sometimes in a conversation there’s just all kinds of stuff, you know? 

Right. I had a conversation with a guy on the beach once. And I tell you, he had some crazy ideas. And you know what? I’ll admit, I’ve got crazy ideas too. Because the Scripture is foolishness to man. And we had this discussion and there were so many ideas that were shared. 

Sometimes it’s hard to know how to bring this thing to a close. Right. But I think that’s very helpful to say, you know what? What’s one thing that you want me to walk away from this conversation thinking about? Yeah. And then can I share with you one thing? Yeah. It brings clarity in that moment so that we don’t lose the forest for the trees. Right. And I think in that one, if you get challenged and there are just lots of different places you can go. If you can zero in, okay, this is the place I want to focus on or this is like that takeaway like you’re talking about there, it can simplify it a bit for us when it’s a pretty wide and expansive playground that you can get overwhelmed in pretty quick. 

Yeah. Brian, this has been an enjoyable conversation. I’ve enjoyed this. And the hope here is that if your faith is settled. What an article of worship. Yeah. And if you’re a thinker and are putting pieces together on this puzzle, what an article of worship. Yeah. Isn’t that neat? And what a picture of the body, with different strengths, different talents, different gifts, working together to bring honor and glory to Lord, and yeah, what a beautiful picture there. 

That’s great. So, to our listeners, thanks for being along here today. We trust and pray that the discussion here has blessed you and been an honor to God.