One Tip for Human Growth Podcast Episode

And I think one of the things to remember is that what God wants us to do is to pick up where we are empowered by him and figure out the next step. Welcome to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Personal growth is a goal for all of us and gets particular attention this time of year. 

Today’s topic will be relevant to that end. I’ve got Ted Witzig Jr. on with me here today. Ted, welcome and I’ll let you introduce the topic. What I think I proposed to you, I said measuring up versus measuring down. I don’t know, exactly, but all I know is I’ve used this concept in my counseling work more times than I can possibly count. 

I’ve used this many times because it applies to so many people. It applies to me. So, let me explain what I’m talking about. When I was working on my doctoral dissertation, the best advice that I ever got was to see my doctoral dissertation as a journey of a hundred steps. And then to realize that right then I was on step five. Okay. And that my eyes would be thinking about step 50 and, oh, my word, how am I going to get to step 99? Because when you’re proposing your dissertation, I mean, it takes forever just to do all this stuff to get there. 

And then, all of a sudden, you’re thinking, how am I ever going to get this through my doctoral defense, you know? Yes. That was like step 95. Well, the thing about it is, when you’re on step 5, your job is to get to step 6. Yes. Okay. And he said when you are at step 49, guess what? Your job will be to get to step 50. And when you’re at step 94, your job will be to get to step 95. And each of those steps will be within your grasp at that point, right? But when you try to tackle a step that’s well beyond where you are, you set yourself up for a feeling of failure, anxiety, worry, and discouragement because if I measure myself, I may measure my 5 versus 95. 

I might as well quit school right now because there’s no way I’m going to do this. Yes. But if I measure it and say, hey, you know what, I’ve got 1, 2, 3, 4 behind me. Now what’s the next step? Now this is what I need to work on now. So, are we measuring the gap? Here’s the thing, I want to keep figuring out how we go just trying to measure one step up at a time. 

So, measuring from the bottom. Yeah. Oh, as opposed to measuring from the top. So, yeah, because here’s the thing and so this is going to sound a little bit paradoxical, but this is really important when you measure yourself against a perfect standard like Jesus. Yeah, okay. We want to be Christlike, and that is our goal. 

That’s a beautiful goal and that’s what we should be aiming for. I mean, he says that in Ephesians 4. He wants to bring us to the measure of the fullness of the stature of Christ. So, his desire for us is nothing less than full Christlikeness. Yeah. But here’s what happens. People say well, I can’t do that or I’m not that. So, they throw their hands up. But the thing about it is we want to see Christ and being like Christ as the vision and aspiration of where we’re going empowered by him.  

But the other part is if I’m on step. If my patience is at 10 out of a hundred, I’m just trying to keep taking those steps because what ends up happening is that if we don’t, we constantly live our life through the lens of how I am failing. Okay. Now again, do we send how I am coming short? Okay. So, now I think something that’s really critical here as we talk about this measurement is what direction we’re facing. Absolutely.  

Okay. So, what you’re just saying here actually makes a lot of sense. Just an hour ago, I had the privilege of engaging with a person I’ve been engaging with for 10 years. And so, I’ve walked with this individual for 10 years. And he actually brought out that he feels like he has so much growth to do. And I was able to provide some perspective to say you’re not even near where you were with that particular element 10 years ago. 

Right. And it was good to reflect on that. But see, he’s looking forward, so you don’t really see the distance unless you turn around and look backwards. That’s correct. And I want to be clear that it is so important what you said about the direction we’re facing and what we’re chasing after. Yes. Because we’re seeking Christlikeness and spiritual fruit that are laid out for us there, but our growth is like the growth of a child who is learning to walk. And then they do this and learn that and the thing about it is, we sometimes have setbacks in our life. Let’s say somebody has a relapse into something that they’ve given up in their life. The feeling is to throw their hands up because they’re back at stage one or something. Because it feels like they’ve gone all the way back to ground zero. Right. And Satan loves this kind of thing where he’s like why try you’re back at ground zero. 

Nothing. You know, none of it mattered. And I think one of the things to remember is that what God wants us to do is to pick up where we are, empowered by him and figure out the next step. Okay. God isn’t asking us to be able to leapfrog in our spiritual fruit. Or let’s say a relationship is damaged. 

Okay. Matt, how about this? Let’s say that our relationship is damaged. I use a different scale. I’m using a lot of math in this. Matt, this is really kind of concerning to me, Ted, should we let the listenership know that you are a self-proclaimed, needy math person. Oh, do you know what? So, we’re just going to go baby steps here with how we count. Yeah. So, let’s put it this way. You and I have different views of math and its role in heaven. Math will be in heaven in Matt’s world. Yeah. Math will not be in heaven in my world. So, anyway, I want you to think of a scale like this where zero is neutral. Okay? Like a neutral relationship, just a business relationship. It’s not positive or negative. And then it goes up plus one, plus two, plus three, plus four, plus five, or down minus one, minus two, minus three, minus four, minus five.  

Let’s say our relationship, you and I are in a tangle, and we are at a negative two. Maybe a negative three. Okay. So, the question is how do you and I fix that? And so, here’s the thing. If you and I are at a negative three and I say, okay, I’m going to change this relationship. I’m going to treat Matt like it’s a positive four. Okay, well the problem is if I start treating you like that and we haven’t done any of this middle work, that actually happens through there, you’re going to be like, whoa, why is Ted putting this niceness campaign on me? And what are the motives behind that?  

The goal is actually, if our relationship is a negative three, the question is how we get it to a negative two so we can get it to a negative one so we can get to neutral because then we can grow. That’s the intermediate value theorem, Ted. Is that right? Yeah. It’s what calculus rests on. Oh, I have a confession, Matt. Yes. The lowest grade that I got in my whole school career ever with all the years of school, it came in calculus for Business and Social Science major. Matt, the flames are still burning where I landed my grade. 

Oh, well. You’re redeeming yourself. I actually am kind of having tremors and twitching. Well, okay, so I love that. You have to move through the middle of those values; through the intermediate values you have to get there to go up. 

Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about this vision idea though. Going back to facing. Yeah. Because that’s big, and everybody will tell you that you need to have a vision. Yeah. You need to have an imagination about where you’re going, you have to have a goal. And all of those things. Yeah. Right. And so that seems to be a little bit of a nemesis here. Yeah. We need this, and yet this also has this shadow. Okay. Yes. So, let’s tease that out. So, I think having goals is a good thing. Goals can be really helpful at saying, hey, I want to do these three things by Thanksgiving when people come by, or I want to get this accomplished. 

That’s not a bad thing in and of itself, but again, the measurement of a goal is always, have I hit it or have I not? If I said, I want to be the clinical director of the Houston OCD program by June 1st, 2026. By the way, it’s not my goal, but let’s say it was my goal. Yeah. Every single day until that day I could tell you if I’d hit that goal or not. Right. Okay. I either have or haven’t. Because it’s very specific and the end point is really nailed down. When we think about it through the lens of a value, what is the thing that I want? When I think of wanting to use the gifts and abilities that God’s given me to help other people grow. 

Okay. I can do that at the Houston OCD program. I can do it here. I can do it at my church, I can do it in other places, but the vision is that in my job I want to grow and be able to help other people grow. Okay. That’s, actually a vision that I can keep living in every day. 

Okay. And have desires to grow this relationship. I want to be present to my wife and my kids. I want to grow in a particular skill or craft or whatever. A growth model doesn’t mean that you can’t have goals. I’m not saying you can’t have goals, but I think what happens is we tend to set goals in such a way that whether we’re talking about spirituality, relationships, or emotions, they tend to come out as either/or. Okay. And the problem is that when people are in a growth process, the either/or is did you hit it or not? Oh, you didn’t. You’re back at the beginning.  

Right now, I’m thinking of a conversation I had with somebody working through an addiction. Yeah. And the question that came to me from this individual was what if 10 years from now, I do it again. Okay. That’s a paralyzing fear for sure. In 10 years, will I do the same thing again? And he says, I’ve talked to people that can happen. And he’s doing exactly what you’re saying. Yeah. Placing that situation in 10 years to be square one. Exactly. And that’s a hard way to live for the next 10 years. Yeah. So there has to be a different way to measure, right? 

We need to be measuring something different. So, you’re really helping us with our visioning process. The problem here is not the vision. We need the vision. The problem here is not the goal. We need goals. It’s just what it is that we need to envision. For example, if I attained this desired place, I would be perfect in some measures. 

Exactly. Not a good vision, not a good goal. So, like perfect humility, Matt. Yeah. Right. The goal isn’t perfect humility, and we have tangible behavioral markers that are going to either say we have or haven’t hit that mark. That’s right. And that’s why I like to think about it from the perspective of where I am today? Where am I? Where is it that I’m trying to get to? Now, again, when we’re trying to cut out a sinful thing, I’m not trying to say that we just don’t care or whatever, but the point here is that we’re trying to shift from one thing to another thing. Yeah, even reducing. I mean if somebody’s smoking 40 cigarettes a day. All right. You know what? When they smoke 25 cigarettes a day, they’ve improved. Is it where I wanted them to be? No, it’s not where I wanted to be, but we need to be able to celebrate that growth so that we can get down to 20 cigarettes and 15 cigarettes, and so we can get to a place that’s maintainable. Let’s say that it’s been 15 days since I smoked a cigarette, and then I smoked. 

Okay, so then we say, what did I learn? What do I need to implement? And then what is the next step that I take? And it’s just the next step. What’s the next step? You know, a word that we’re using a lot is discipleship. Yes. And one caricature that I really like about discipleship nicely encapsulates what you’re talking about here. It is an identification of oneself that I am on my feet in motion moving towards Christ. Yeah. And following with my vision and goal being out in front of me but defining myself as a person in process rather than I don’t know what it is. 

And the thing about it also is that many times we would rather skip the step that we’re on too. Because maybe I’m on step 15 and step 16 is just a bear for me. It’s just a hard one and I just want to skip it. I don’t want to deal with it. It’s just really particularly hard. 

And so, I think one of the things also is if we had to do all 100 steps at the same time, we’d be so overwhelmed. And the point is that God will give us grace to handle or work through or walk with him in the place where we are. And you and I would easily say if you thought about what you knew about being a husband in the first year of being married. Yikes. I think about that and I think, oh my word. But we all started there. Or your first year of teaching. Yes. Or my first year of being a counselor. Absolutely. The thing is, we diligently tried to do our best in those places. Yeah. 

So let me ask you this. Your first year of teaching that you diligently tried to do, was God pleased that you were just trying to do your best as a first-year teacher? Yes. You wouldn’t ever say, wow, that was like my greatest performance as a teacher. But what you would say is I stewarded that I did the best I could, and I learned lots of things I didn’t know. But you don’t have to be down on yourself for what you didn’t know. You just did that. And guess what? We’re down the road from that. And that’s because God has built into this life some of the things that we’re bumping up against, and they are teaching us things through truth. 

You know, we’re learning other times. We’re learning things through mercy and grace. Other times we’re learning things through time and maturity. So, Ted, this is just a hypothesis. I wonder if Christians struggle with this more than non-Christians because we have in our faith that things should be different. Yeah. And things can be different by way of the Holy Spirit. And I can give a few names of people from whom I’ve heard testimony it was that way for them. You see that. Sure. But for me it’s slow. 

So anyway, speak about the Christian Faith. Yeah. Anyway, so a couple of things. First and foremost is the fact that we have laid out in Scripture for us a supernatural vision of what the Christian’s life can be in Christ with the Holy Spirit and the Word. I mean, you can’t read the Sermon on the Mount and then just say, hey, by the way, I’m going to do that in my own effort. 

Okay. You know? But I think the other part we’re saying is life should be different. I should be different. And you know what? We’re going to have to work on that. That is not going to happen just because I took a nap and then I wake up and I’ve got all this spiritual fruit. 

But I would say also that sometimes we believe change, growth, and maturity are evidence because it was fast or instantaneous. Okay. And so, somebody once said a slow miracle is no less miraculous than a fast miracle,  

Yeah. And I think one of the things that people want are instant results. Go back to the smoking analogy. They want to go cold turkey and never turn around again, and it’s done. And other people struggle and struggle and struggle. 

And we do that with other things in life. But I think the other part too is that we have the confidence that God understands. He knows our frame and knows that we are weak. And the interesting part about that is he’s not asking me to be you or you to be me, or my journey to be your journey. 

But he is asking me to keep leaning into him growing and seeking to grow in whatever that next thing is. We live in human bodies with real life, marred by real sin and God’s redeeming work in us, through us, around us is really a journey of steps. Now, can he do anything? Can he do miracles? 

Absolutely. I don’t want to cast any doubt on that. I believe he can. And I also think that most of the time, we’re better off looking at it and say that the miracle is that God is with me today, helping me to figure out how to get from step 15 to step 16. Probably one of the hardest things about life is that none of us are where we ought to be. But here’s the thing, Ted, because we’re never where we ought to be, we remain a disciple. Isn’t that beautiful grace? Because I never achieve mastery, I’m always a student. Yeah. And that seems to be the posture Christ asks of us eternally is to be disciples of his.  

And I think that’s the key at the end. While Christlikeness is our goal, we’re never going to become the master. We’re always the disciple. It’s about me growing in this particular way that God needs me to grow in and just growing in that, the measure becomes less and less other people and more and more him. As growth is measured incrementally. We’ve laid out how important that is. You had mentioned when folks don’t do this and they measure from the top down. Yeah. And you said discouragement sets in. A few other things. All or nothing thinking. 

Yeah. All or nothing. Mm-hmm. Say a little bit more about that and the toll that takes on life and what that looks like. Yep. So, one of the things that comes in there with that is just a very perfectionistic way of looking at life. I mean, either all good or all bad. I either hit the mark or I haven’t. 

So, what ends up happening is people generally end up in one of two places with perfectionism like that. One is I am either crushed by my standard, or I have to be the measurer of the standard, and I’ll measure you. Okay. So, I’ll either be the enforcer or I’ll be crushed by that standard so it’s really rough that way. 

Okay, I think I’m understanding what you’re saying. I understand the crushed one, but you said you become the standard then. So, what happens? So, then you start to measure others against yourself? Yeah. Well, and so here’s one of the things that we do. If I’m feeling bad about my particular problem, but I can see that you’re worse than me. Yeah. Then guess what? Yeah. I can point the finger at you because at least I’m not like Matt. Yes. Okay, so what do I get out of that? At least I have the relief of the self-justification part which then is the surrogate for our pain. 

Yeah. We need to remember that Jesus is right here on step 16 with me, the power of the Holy Spirit and his shed blood. He’s here. Yes. I want to go there, but it’s not like he’s at the top with his arms closed saying, oh, come on Kaufmann, why did I ever die for you? Why is step 16 so hard for you? Right. Okay. Now he has every right in the world and in the universe at all times to do so. But because of who he is. And now we’re touching on so many other topics, Ted, because of who he is points to one’s God image. Absolutely. So, I wonder if our measuring is a reflection of our God image? 

We assume we measure ourselves by the way we assume God is measuring us. Do you think there’s truth there? I think there’s a lot of truth there, and that’s why I think that as God sees us and is working with us to be holy because he is holy. Okay. But he has no delusion that we’re going to do that on our own. 

He has no delusion that we have in our humanness the capacities to build spiritual fruit in that way. And that’s why that statement is so striking about the vine and the branches. For without me, you can do what percent? Nothing. Nothing. And we say, but I can do all kinds of things. 

We can’t kindle spiritual fruit without him. Ted, this is really helpful and some of the things as I think about measuring up as opposed to measuring down, a couple of things really crystallize for me. One is God image. And seeing God as a measuring up God. Yeah. As opposed to a measuring down God. 

Number two, having vision is important and having goals is important. But along with that, we need to have the values of growth as a part of that. Right. Yeah. And these seem to dovetail very importantly in order for us to make the necessary strides to grow into Christlikeness as disciples. 

I think the most amazing thing about it is that in his purity, his holiness, and righteousness we have no entry of ourselves. He is the God who condescends. He comes into that and to be very clear, it’s not him lowering his standard of holiness, but it is him being willing to come down to bring us up. 

And that just makes me awe. I really like that. And so here then we have the proximity of Christ being really important in this matter, isn’t it? Yeah. If we see him aloof in a far-off place, we might just measure down. If we see him present, we might just measure up. 

But not only that, we will have the grace and the strength to take the next step. That’s right. Because it’s also not his desire that we stay on step five. Okay. It’s maybe some improvement, but it’s not where I need to be. He’s not just going to say, I don’t care if you continue sinning in that way or these kinds of things. It’s not like who cares? You don’t have permission to remain there. He doesn’t give us that permission. But I’m awed and humbled by his willingness to walk with me through my stumbling steps and the places that, after the fact, when I look back and I see the growth that finally occurred or I see, oh my, how bad I was missing it that I didn’t see I was missing it.  

But I think also a lot of people don’t really understand, Matt, that God is really happy that you are his son. God is really happy that you are his son. And just let that reverberate off you. He is happy that you are his daughter or son. And it’s like me? Really me? Yeah, really you. And he wants to work his ways in that and help you to grow. Thanks, Ted. I’m going to let Ted’s closing comments really sit with our listeners, to feel the weight of God’s pleasure, feel his presence to take the next step. Thanks everyone for listening.