Connection In Marriage Podcast Episodes

Someone speaks of a tree being planted by the rivers of water, connected to the life source. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Wonderful to have you along. Kaleb Beyer is here with me today. Good morning, Kaleb. Good morning. 

Good to be with you, Matt. Kaleb, the topic today is connection as it concerns marriage. Jesus in the New Testament uses the vine abiding in connection to the very source of life. And so, there’s an attachment to the life source. And as we think about the vine and when that attachment or connection is lost, things wither. 

Right. So, in that connection, there’s a transporting of life back and forward. Okay. So that connection, and that might be what we mean by a meaningful connection or a healthy connection that supplies life one for the other. Right. And in that connection is a free flowing, as we think about relational connection. 

Right? Fears, vulnerabilities, hopes, dreams, that our relationship is connected in such a way that there is a free flow of those things that are deeply meaningful. And deeply moving to us as individuals and we feel seen and safe and secure in that space to be able to share those things. I really like the analogy of a plant because I think we understand that healthy connection in a plant makes all the difference, and we have life. 

As it regards marriage, Kaleb, what does it look like? Yeah, when there’s a disconnection, the answer to are you there for me would be no. Right. And I think it’s important, Matt, as we think about, are you there for me? This doesn’t mean my spouse doesn’t help me with chores around the house, or my spouse isn’t intentional about going to work regularly, you know, providing for the family. 

Are you there for me is a question in a deeper sense emotionally, that says, do you notice me? Do you value me? Am I important to you? When I am struggling, when I’m in pain, are you there for me? Do I matter to you? Yes. Do I matter? Do I influence and impact you as an individual? Is there a basic need here? 

You know, I’m thinking of some, they’re saying, is that what I signed up for? Is that what marriage means? You know what I mean? Because this is pushing those who are not theoretical to be like, okay, this is like a sixth dimension here. Yeah. Speak to the need for connection. 

Answer that question. In order to answer that question. I think Matt, at least this, my mind goes to our connection with God. We will not flourish. We have no life without that connection. And I think this flows out of God himself as a relational being. Yeah. That we have a deep need for that connection that’s beyond just living in the same house together beyond even spending time together. Yeah, I really like that. 

In fact that helped bring some cognitive closure for me on this topic Okay, when you gave that example Kaleb, I think of Jeremiah 31 where he has this prophetic moment where he says I’m gonna write my law in their inward parts, on their hearts and I will be to them a God and they shall be to me a people. You can get a sense that God has not longed for a living arrangement with us. 

He has longed for a living relationship with us. That in marriage, we’re not just striking a living arrangement. We are striking a living relationship connection. And that’s what we’re talking about today. Would you say every human being wants this, whether they recognize it or not? Yes. Okay. Our brains are formed very much in a social context and so it’s in a relational sense. 

And so, we’ve been created for this. We have. And so, we can learn how to do it better. Is that a true statement? Yes. Okay. So, I’m guessing there’s some awareness pieces for this deep connection and that’s where we want to go to, right? Yeah. What needs to be on our radar when it comes to improving my connection with my spouse? 

Yeah. So, one of the first things that I think about is being curious about myself when I feel disconnected from my spouse. Okay? So, what do I do? Let me first stop with that. Because that right now, that’s not normal. My tendency, when I’m feeling disconnected with my spouse, is to wonder about her. 

Sure. Okay, so what you just said, what you just said, I’ve got whiplash here. I was tracking you, Kaleb, and I was all of a sudden, like, well, Kaleb took a fork in the road and I’m not with him anymore. So I’m backtracking. Okay. So you say when there’s disconnection, I need to be curious about myself. 

Yes. So, this is really about self awareness for me. What I tend to do when I’m distressed is I tend to go silent and withdraw. If there’s a disconnection, I may pull away and internalize and process. I’m no counselor here but by pulling away, it seems to be the opposite of connection. Yes. 

Exactly. And I think that’s the thing, Matt, is realizing that, in our marriage, we want so deeply to be understood, to be known. If you think about it, in Christ’s sense, it’s to be fully loved and fully known. Right? Both of those. And when I’m in distress and I start pulling away, I’m protecting my own self, but what it leads to is also further disconnection because Ange feels me pulling away. 

Yeah, so I think you hit the nail on the head. Sometimes my coping with the pain of disconnection leads to further disconnection. It’s not helpful relationally. Yes, this is not uncommon for men. I don’t know what to do with this. I can take battles and stand in front of my family and spouse and go at great lengths but when it comes to stepping into how to navigate a disconnection with my spouse, are you serious? 

Yeah, well, I think I’m just gonna go to the garage and work on that project. Exactly, yes. Tinker around in the shop so we connect with something else, right? Okay, so withdrawal. Yes. Are there others? Yeah, another one is, when there’s a disconnection, they pursue, and when they pursue, unfortunately, it’s in a fairly intense, negative emotionally kind of language. 

Yeah. And so for those individuals, when there’s a disconnect, they tend to go to a more aggressive person. Okay. Underneath that is the pain of disconnection you’re coping with. So, what we’re saying is the surface behavior is just a manifestation of something deeper going on in the relationship. So, a lot of times with our aggression, we don’t really see it as a connection problem, right? 

It’s pain. Right. All right. I’m starting to track with you now, Kaleb. And so what you’re bringing our awareness to in this discussion is that you need to have your eye on connection, right? You’ve got your eye on the wrong ball, so to speak. Yeah. You need to have your eye on connection and proof enough that you want it to be so you’re being aggressive? 

Yes, but that’s not how you win it. Exactly. The signals get mixed, right? You know that in some sense you’re longing for responsiveness. You’re longing for understanding. Unfortunately, the intensity of that emotion overwhelms the spouse and they’re unable to see that’s what is wanted and let me guess, just like before, we lose connection. Yes. 

Correct. It leads to a disconnection, right? Okay, think about that cycle? It’s a painful cycle because the harder you try the worse it becomes. And the more pain I incur because that’s what’s painful, right? And so, I think for me, and this has been helpful for me even as I engage in work with couples, is to see on the surface the anger the frustration is flowing from a place deep within that God has created us for connection and even though they may not be communicating well, underneath that they want the same thing. 

Yes, they do and that’s very helpful. I think it is. It’s not as if we’ve got two very separate incompatible goals here. You don’t want to get this and you want to get that. And how are we going to try to reconcile this? Yes. We want the exact same thing. 

Yes. But because of our styles and because of the way that we react to that pain, we do what’s not helpful. Correct. And so, with self awareness, one of the things I also encourage for us to be reflective of is how did we navigate distress in our own family growing up? How did we walk through emotions? Sadness? How is it expressed? We are meaning makers. And we’re constantly learning, growing, making meaning out of interactions, relationships. And obviously, that’s very formative in our growing up, our family of origin. Okay. And is it safe to say that I always respond according to the meaning in my head? 

Yes. Is that true? Yes. Okay. So, if I can better understand meaning, I will behave better. Yes. Is that a true statement? Yes. Because in that meaning, there are beliefs. Okay. So, many interactions in your growing up, you started to form beliefs about yourself, about relationships, about God, right? 

These are all shapes. So, I may have seen people in my past withdraw. In fact, just last night, I was doing something, and Rebecca said, Matt, stop doing that.  It was straight and direct. Okay? And I recognized totally that it was not in anger, it was just direct. 

And then my daughter came up a little bit later and said, are you and mom upset? Wow. Yeah, isn’t that interesting? Yeah, and I was like, no, you know what I mean? But had we not had that conversation she was constructing meaning from that wasn’t she? Yes, Matt, that’s a great example because I think the challenge is that kids are incredibly emotionally perceptive. I remember my professor in grad school said that and I think i’ve probably stated it here before. 

They can shift. So your daughter could tell emotionally there was something going on, but they’re terrible interpreters. Their brain isn’t fully developed. Yes. Bad at meaning. So, that’s why as you think about nurturing, discipling, growing children, it’s coming along with them. What do I do with this butterfly in my stomach? Even before they have language, they start behaving in certain ways. And so, we are shaping meaning, or supporting shaping meaning in them as children around these emotions of sadness, of anger, of fear. What do you do with that? And so, those experiences then, Matt, shape but don’t control how we begin to navigate that in our intimate adult relationships, right? 

Okay. So now I’m totally with you on meaning. We make meaning of situations with my spouse according to the many lessons that have stacked upon themselves right from my youth as I have learned to be a meaning maker. Yes. Okay, so I’m guessing some re-education is part of that. Yes, maybe, and I think it’s easy for us as adults, now that our brain is fully developed, to look back and say you know what, how my sibling did this to me, or how my mom and dad did this to me, or how we navigated that really wasn’t that big a deal. It’s in the past. The past is in the past. Yeah. Sort of thing. 

Yeah. And I think it’s helpful to remember that. This happened when we were eight, ten, again, not as adults, not with what we know now. Yeah, but put yourself in an eight-year-old’s shoes and then say that or hear that. Sometimes it’s not what is overtly stated like quit crying. Yeah, right. There’s no room for crying, but if it continues, I’ll give you something to cry about. There you go. Yeah, that’s usually soothing and calming. It works every time. 

Oh. And we’re even laughing about that as adults. If we didn’t laugh, we’d cry. Yes, totally. I think the point being, as we are self-reflective, as we consider, again, back to what we were talking about, Matt, how do we start responding in distress? Well, some of that is shaped by our own past experiences, and it is helpful for us not to just churn in past experiences, but to be curious about how I have been shaped in a way that I navigate distress presently. 

Yeah. And so, as you said, this is not about going into our past. We’re not necessarily victims of our past. Actually, Kaleb, I think you’ve redeemed our past in a way to say we’ve had a whole lifetime of lessons. Yes. Now that we’re mature. Yes. We need to unpack the lesson. Correct. And so, it doesn’t make the lesson bad even as hard as it was, or hurtful, or scarring in some cases. That’s a lesson to learn, and we had better learn from it. Right. And we’d better get the right meaning, because we’ve had a lot of classroom time. Yes. And how has that shaped us? I’m being curious about that shaping. It is important and really critical to our marriage relationship for continuing to deepen connection. 

Well, connection has certainly been elevated in our minds. I thank you, Kaleb, for bringing this topic to bear. And I would agree, I think we all do want connection. How do we get it? We’ll wait for the next episode to answer that question. So to each one, thanks for being with us and we look forward to having you back on soon. 

Goodbye. 

There are three areas that we look at accessibility, responsiveness, and then engaged. Welcome each one to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Great to have you along. Today we’re going to air the second half of our podcast series on connection and marriage, where I’m interviewing Kaleb Beyer. 

In our last episode, we talked about how important connection is, that we have a deep need for it. And also, our unhelpful responses to the lack of connection, which is often aggression or withdrawal. Today, we’re going to needle into how then do we connect? Glad to have you here.  

So, Rebecca and I get disconnected. Okay. I need to disconnect. Consider how am I responding to that whether it’s withdrawal or aggression or what not? Yep, I need to be thinking about the meaning that I’m making maybe from her behavior. Is that where I’m going? Yeah, even what do I conclude about myself or our relationship in this moment? 

What am I saying about her? Okay? What am I thinking about myself and our relationship? What does this mean? And how did I come to that? Is that the way you’re thinking? Right, yeah. How do I get the right answer? So, this isn’t about cognitively thinking my way through the process of disconnection. 

Part of it is that when we’re in a state of distress, that’s where the meaning is made. When I’m in the place of experiencing emotion, distress, fear, that I make meaning there. If I learned to shut that down and suppress that. Yeah, it’s really difficult for me to make sense of what’s happening in my relationship. 

So, part of it is me growing in awareness and comfort level of starting to experience some of these emotions and what they’re saying. I have to be able to sit with those and make sense of them and what that’s telling me. Yes, to challenge it. So, escaping. That’s my attendance. Yes, is not the answer and Aggression is not the answer and while those might be soothing they are not making meaning of the situation. So, you’re saying to engage the disconnection in a way, right? There is an engagement of it. There is. And sitting with the pain you said. So, there is an endurance of the pain that allows the meaning to be surfaced. Yes. Is that true? That’s true.  

Maybe your family’s gone to Lake Michigan. We go up there, been up there a few times, and it can be a nice sunny day, and you look, and you think, oh, this water is going to be wonderful. You step in. Never mind, I’m not swimming today. That’s right. Okay. Well, I’ll stay on the beach. I’m not getting wet. But the first experience is, oh no. Okay, and so but what happens is if I stay with that just a little bit of pain, yes, guess what happens I can go a little further. 

Yeah, and so again back to our experiences previously we may have learned to shut that off to avoid it. Yes, really pain is bad, just like this. Yes, and so part of this is a process of learning to grow in tolerance of pain but doesn’t mean I like it. I want it. Yes, but understanding flows out of tolerating at some level to understand the meaning that’s made out of it. 

Does that make sense? Yeah. The important meaning that we need to catch lies in the pain. And there’s a great reward if you can stick out the water at Lake Michigan, right? Yeah, to have a great day. And there’s a great reward here too in restoring connection. That’s the goal here. 

Right. And I think with that, Matt, is what we begin to see then and recognize is, okay, now I know I withdraw, right? And I would withdraw because this is how I learned to cope with pain. Yeah, just to avoid or suppress. Okay. And being able to communicate in this sense, let’s just use that example of an individual that tends to withdraw is that they can say now to their spouse, you know what, this is what happens for me. And this is why I withdraw. I want you to know, I love you. At times, I’m not sure what to do with that. I feel helpful. I feel I’m at a place that I’m not even sure how to respond. So now we’re getting to some real practical things here. You’ve just suggested an answer saying this is what I’m wanting to do and you’re informing your spouse on how to make meaning of it, right? 

You’re adding meaning to the pool of shared meaning rather than your spouse just seeing you go out to the garage, and tinker around. Okay. How about the aggressive one? How might they adjust? So, for them to recognize again that oftentimes this kind of aggression comes from a place of fear underneath it. 

Okay. And so, being able to say to their spouse, you know what? Obviously not in the moment. This takes reflection and calming down. But you know what? I realize I do come on strong. And I realized that’s not helpful to a relationship for connection. What I really want is to be understood. To be seen. To be noticed. Whatever that is, formulate and this is how that happens for that individual. And so, what you’re doing is you’re saying, the tip of the iceberg you see, which is either aggression or withdrawal. That’s there. I acknowledge it and I take responsibility. That’s not helpful for our relationship, right? 

So, there’s a sense of acknowledgement in front. And then I want you to know that underneath, this is really what I desire and this is what I want. And I know sometimes I blow it communicating that you get mixed messages. Of course you do. Yeah, this is what I’m longing for. Yes. Right. And so, it really made sense to me when you said this is what I’m afraid of. I’m afraid of being disconnected with you and what an opportunity for a spouse to lay to rest that fear, right? Yeah. With that meaning now, well, let me lay that to rest as we work this out. Is that where some real help is given? We understand one another. Yep. Then we can speak to that fear or that worry, right? Or that tendency. Or sometimes shame.  

Shame. Okay. Yup. I’m bad. I’m a failure. Yeah. We can speak to that. And ultimately what we would say is, in an emotional sense, that brings soothing. That brings calm because it’s seen. It’s validated. It doesn’t mean it’s true. 

Validation doesn’t mean, yes, it’s true. It just means I see it and of course you could feel that way and I see you and that’s not true. So, there’s a lot of help in understanding, isn’t there? There really is. Yes. And not just in a cognitive sense, but in an emotional sense. Because if a spouse withdraws, for example, I can spin a lot of incorrect meaning from that and come to a very different understanding which really drives more disconnection.  

It does. Oh, he doesn’t care, right? Yep, or he doesn’t like me, right with the aggression or whatnot. Yeah, but to bring understanding. Kaleb if you can come somewhat land the plane so to speak how you would help a couple with disconnection and connection. 

What would be your closing comments to help us do this? So, when we think about accessibility, things like, can I share my deepest fears and feelings with my spouse? And can I get my spouse’s attention easily and consistently? It means how accessible am I and how accessible is my spouse? 

So that would be one metric to work and become better at. Correct. That’s going to help maintain connection and repair connection. Correct. Yes. Accessibility. The next is responsiveness. This is really about being tuned in to each other. So, if I need comfort, if I’m in distress and I need comfort and connection that my spouse will be there for me and that I find it helpful to lean on my spouse when I’m in distress, right? 

There is this sense that when I’m in distress and I go to my spouse, they are responsive in a healthy and a safe way. You know what? Vocabulary is really important. And I think what you’re doing is you’re giving us some vocabulary to say, honey. I’m responding. I know I’m not responding right and I need response from you and it’s okay if you don’t know how, but if we can again agree that we’re trying to respond to one another, right? 

Right. Even though we’re getting it wrong. That goes a long way. Yes. Absolutely. So I like that. It really challenges those meanings that we make that aren’t true. Accessible, responsive and then engaged. I feel safe enough to take emotional risks with my spouse and I can confide in and trust my spouse with almost anything. 

Engagement is an ongoing process of being in the relationship, right? And engagement to the relationship. And so deeper and deeper risks emotionally can be taken. And we would say trust is built through safety. I really like that. Accessibility, responsiveness, and engagement. Three great areas to work on and practice and great areas to help sort out when disconnection has occurred. 

Thanks, Kaleb. Being connected with our spouses, that whole element of marriage has really been elevated here in this conversation. I mean, you know what I’m saying? I’m just realizing that, oh man, I guess I really do want that. I really never realized that that’s been baked into me. Yeah. 

Yeah. And that my spouse offers that for me, and I offer that to my spouse, and we’re on the same path and remembering that even when it doesn’t feel that way, we want that. Yes Yeah, we were created for that. Yeah, thanks so much to each of you listening. We are glad to have you along. Our marriages are dear to us and we’re thankful that you are pouring into your marriage and you’re considering these concepts, and we trust and pray this could be helpful for you.