Parenting without Shame Podcast Episode

Yeah. To be a safe place for them to share their hearts, to explore their world, and then we get the privilege of then pouring truth into that, and if we can create that kind of dynamic and modeling what Christ has given to us, a beautiful picture. Welcome and greetings everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

Great to have you along. In the studio, I’ve got Craig Stickling and Brian Sutter. Welcome, guys. Hi Matt. Thank you, Matt. Our topic is going to be shame, though, brothers. Let me set up shame a little bit, and then I want you to unpack it. Let’s understand what it is. We all deal with shame, and shame entered the story of the book of mankind pretty early. Right away. The last verse in chapter two says, and they were unashamed. And then you go into the fall of man in chapter three, and they go into hiding, right? Adam and Eve go into hiding and God, you know what I really love about that story is when God calls him out of hiding, right? 

He goes and he says, who told you, why are you hiding, come out to me? Yeah. And if we could I think of a label that Adam and Eve felt, that propelled them into hiding. I think shame would be a good word for it. Is that a true statement? Yeah, absolutely, Matt. And I think in that realm that hiding, was drawing away, was isolating and pulling back. 

Right. And God, as he called them back into community, into relationship. And shame, just as the opposite of that sin entered the world, right. But shame entered the world too. And I wonder if God, our Heavenly Father really grieved that poison that was now unleashed. Does that make sense? Boy, it sure seems like it, you know, as you look at the narrative there of the Lord interacting with Adam and even afterwards, you have a picture of a hurt father. 

Yeah. At least that’s what I see. Who told you? Yeah. Like what happened here? We were so close and there was this deep connection and now there’s something that’s not there anymore. Well, let’s stop there. Who told you, right? And then they go on this narrative about Satan told us. I want to go to shame and what it is, but it is a message, isn’t it? 

This is what I’ve been told. Yeah, and that’s where I think the seeds of shame were planted there as Eve interacts with the serpent. And the serpent begins to sow seeds of doubt that, no, God is not really interested in you. He doesn’t really care. He’s holding out on you. And you begin to see the seeds of shame taking, and can we say those seeds were lies? 

Oh, right. Yes. Which again, set that juxtaposition to Jesus and to God who speak truth all the time. And Satan speaking falsehoods all the time. We see that shame plays on lies. Help our listeners get their mind around shame. Well, I think in some ways, you know, a few characteristics from an emotional standpoint, shame comes with really intense messages that basically say, not only have you made mistakes, but you are a mistake. 

It shifts from things that have happened to you are a problem and there is nothing that can be done for you. And so, in that there’s not only an issue that you have broken this, but there’s also just no solution for it. And you’re stuck with no options or where to go. And now let’s go back to that Genesis story, because don’t we read in the second chapter or the first, is it that God says, I’m very pleased with this. 

This is very good. He looked at Adam and Eve and said, this is good. He spoke into them that goodness. So, Satan has a cosmic banner over people, where he says, no, bad, you are bad. And shame plays to that pronouncement, doesn’t it? Satan really is only able to destroy. God has the truth, doesn’t he? 

So, what God said was good, Satan doesn’t have an original element to play with, but he takes the opposite of that. Well, you’re not good. Right? And kind of like Brian said, shame then even takes it and other stuff. Not only are you not good, but you’re also so broken and bad that there’s no fixing you. And unwanted. 

Yeah. And then that’s where I think the hiding comes in the story. Not only have they now messed up and there’s distance between them and God, but now they have this sense that I can’t turn to him for restoration, but I have to hide and run away because if he knows or he sees me the way that I see myself now, there’s no way he would want anything to do with me. 

So, shame is isolating. Right. And it pushes us away from community. So that might be one way, I guess, for our listeners to understand what it means by shame. It’s this thing that causes a soul to retreat within themselves and not be drawn out to the light, but rather the darkness. So that’s the problem statement. 

Our topic here today is parenting without shame. Okay. I have found it in my own personal experience that very often I will use shame in my parenting. Does that make sense? Let me give you an example that I have come to understand as shameful. I might say to my 10-year-old when I’m exasperated, I might say, all other 10 year olds know how to do this. 

But you do not. And I say that to give an example. Right. Do you understand where I’m coming from here and how easy it is for me to say something like that, but it now sets them apart. Yep. And you can even hear it. It’s like globalization. Like you are worse than everybody else. 

And again, no parent wants to do that or even typically intentionally do that. You don’t go into that consciously, but you find yourself saying, how could you, or what is wrong with you? And those very heated moments. And we’re beginning accidentally, to say, get away from me. 

I can’t be around you. This is unbelievable. And somehow, we think that it’s going to be very motivating for the child. But it’s not. One of the tricky things there with shame, it can be effective in the short term. That’s one of the things that’s tricky, that if you’re trying to get a child to stop doing whatever they’re doing, it may, in the short term, stop X behavior, but in the long term, you’re creating a lot of damage that actually is very hurtful in the long run, right? 

So, what else is born in that moment? Craig, while we might get better table manners, talk to us about what a heart can do by shaming. Yeah. Shame almost like shuts the door, locks it, and then we paint over it. You can’t even see the door. Rebuild it. Returning back to, okay, what can I do to get better? 

How can I get better back? How can I work and improve, right? And rebuild that relationship with mom and dad in a way that what do they need from me? Because at the core, what shame does at the core is it says you are an unwanted person. You are a broken and unwanted person without repair, which really speaks to your point there, Craig, no hope. 

Do we break the will of a child versus breaking the spirit of a child? And sometimes that will and that nature, that does need to be corrected and sometimes we need to tangle with that but to break their spirit is that. Okay, you can be, we can work, no, you’re no good. And no parent really believes that, you know, we’re all well-meaning. 

But it’s almost like I have found in my parenting, in points of discipline, the worst version of myself comes out if I’m not careful. Right. And what’s the worst version of myself going to do? It’s going to shame, right? It’s what it’s going to do. As shame comes out or that intent to just change a child’s behavior, 

it reflects back to a mom and dad. So, when I look in the mirror, what am I seeing when I look at my own life and where I am in my own life and my own struggles or challenges or closeness to God or closeness with my spouse? And when those things become hurting and struggling as well. How much do we just slide down that path to, okay, I’m now going to take it out or now it’s going to come out very hard or very difficult to my kid, right? Where we’re taking top down and now it’s spilling out to our kids. And it’s a moment to reflect on, where am I at in this process? Yeah. And I think that’s such a good point, Craig, in the sense that it seems like my default, especially when I’m upset, what’s naturally going to come is shaming. 

But if I can take a deep breath and pause and be intentional, that gives me a chance to at least engage with intentionality and hopefully be more grace filled even if there’s correction that’s needed. And I want to go to that correction piece, you know, break the will but not the spirit. As you mentioned, Craig, what does it look like then to correct in a way that does not shame? 

In many ways, to correct is to be specific. So, it’s different to say, hey, I’m asking you to put your shoes away. Would you please do that, or you didn’t do that, so this consequence is going to come is very different than you never listen to me about anything, what’s wrong with you, that’s going to be more shaming. 

Okay. So, you’re really separating the behavior from the child. And you’re being specific about what you’re frustrated about, whereas when you’re just shaming, they may not know you’re talking about the shoes or the clothes or the thing that you did early in the day or whatever. 

Yeah. And discipline does that beautiful piece of teaching, right? What comes out of the word discipline is an element of teaching. And I think shame just elevates the picture where it’s just a bomb that explodes, but there’s really not teaching that’s happening. What did I want my child to do? What didn’t work? 

What do we need to work on? What do they not understand? How do I fix this? Lean into that versus just bombing and stepping away. But this guilt piece, guilt is good, right? To have guilt for a child, to feel guilt for doing wrong is a good thing. We’re not undoing that. Right. God uses guilt in our life. 

Exactly. I think what we’re wanting to do is really awaken that and to be able to give them time and space to reflect on that and notice what it is that was going on. You were asked to do this, this didn’t happen. Let’s think about what was going on in your heart so that can be highlighted and that in time, hopefully then the Spirit’s able to be interpreted the same way for them and leads them into correction and into restoration with the Lord rather than just no hope. 

And to that door that you mentioned. That door is open. There is a way to come and do right and we need the deep work of Jesus to do that. Very often or if it’s something like cleaning up your room and having it right, I believe you can do that which is a very affirming non-shaming thing. 

Yeah. Belief in a child. Right. And you move into that. Even the next step is to then to say, okay, is my child not able to do what I’m asking them? Yeah. Okay. So, what happens now? Grace extends. Okay. Now I want to help my child to be successful. So maybe we revisit the chore list or maybe we look at what was going wrong or the accident or the situation. 

We look into that, right. And then we compensate, or we fill in that and help with meeting their need as opposed to just saying it’s not there. So, yeah. We’ll come back later. That really takes knowledge from a parent to a child to know what they can and cannot do. Certainly, you have age that gives rise to, you know what, you’re expecting this out of a four-year-old, right? 

But there are also different developmental disabilities and other things that a parent really needs to understand their child well to know what can be expected and then to separate, again, that individual from their lack of ability to do things. Because they can intertwine that with shame very easily. 

Oh, man. Yeah. And you see that so often. I mean, that’s one of the very common ways that shame gets wrapped up. Basically, our natural tendency is to say your worth, or your value is determined by what you do. Exactly. What you do. And you can see how that just presents a lot of problems. So, if that’s a narrative script that’s running in their own head. Then, whether it comes out of our mouth or not, often it doesn’t. Right. If they continue to fail at something, they will very likely, left on their own, run into trouble. And if we can be aware of that, just to know that might be part of what’s running in the back of their mind, then that can give us opportunity to look for places that I can recognize things that have been done or that I can celebrate just who they are and give this this sense that no, I’m not just here to tell you all the things you need to do differently, or correct you. 

I’m here to celebrate you and who God’s created you to be. I love that celebration piece because I think we want to say, how do we not shame? You know what I mean? So, we’ve talked about what shame is. We’ve talked about how it’s not necessarily discipline. I mean, we need to discipline, and guilt is good. 

So, there’s a tricky spot there, but let’s just fill out non-shame. What does that look like? I think celebration is a good word to start that conversation, right? Celebration as it comes to redemption, right? What a beautiful message of the gospel of being redeemed, regardless of where we were at or what we did, we get to be redeemed in that. 

And what a great celebration in that sense. And we get to extend that to our children, not just on their behaviors, but we get to be so grateful for who they are and who God has created them to be. So, I hear you celebrating, Craig, their being. Yeah. You have to go to the core, don’t you? Right. Instead of celebrating, while we do celebrate their accomplishments, that’s not exactly what we’re talking about. 

Right. Yep. And I think that’s important to distinguish that surely, we want to celebrate accomplishments, but ultimately, we want to give them this very strong sense that, that I’m interested in you, period, rather than I’m interested in you when you do the right things. And I think to me, that’s a helpful picture. How do I let my kids know and experience, I’m interested in you, period. 

I think another word that’s helpful is enjoying. If we have a difficult moment with a child to say, you know what, I need to make sure they know I enjoy them. Which really helps drives community, right? And it’s a very non-shaming moment to have an enjoyable moment, right? Yeah. I think an element of shame drives us to just focus on what is wrong, right? 

And sometimes that’s easy to do as a parent in our efficiency or busyness. It’s here’s the parenting according to the critique model. Here’s everything that’s wrong. Let’s fix what’s wrong, and then we’ll get to a better place. But the gospel looks at everything that is right and everything that is true, and we’re even to think on those things, right? 

So, to bring that element into our kids and to see what is good, what is right about them, what they have been given as talents and gifts and wrapped in their personality and temperament, and to be able to enjoy them for that. If there’s something that I do enjoy or appreciate about them, not just think about it, but I want to be really purposeful in sharing that with them. 

I think that’s great. You know, and I have texted one of my kids before, I’m so proud of you, you know, and I got a text back. Why? Because my child was thinking through the circumstances, there’s nothing that I did, right? Certainly, that had to come from something I did. And, well, no, you’re my child. 

I’m just so excited about you, you know what I mean? Which is, again, a very non-shaming thing. When is shaming most at risk? And I think we’ve talked about discipline. I think it’s very at risk when we’re upset, and we want them to do something differently. It’s easy to shame. But there are some other areas and times where it’s at risk. 

When is that? Well, I think one way to think of it that goes back to what we talked about earlier is that shame part is hiding. So, any time that your child is coming like this is me. That is one of those moments to be careful with, because when they come, hey, I want you to see me. 

That is a really easy opportunity to either say, hey, I’m interested to receive or to reject. Exactly. And that’s a really pivotal moment that a lot of times is really easy to miss. I mean, just even the other day at supper, my daughter starts telling me a story and I see my wife in the background, like getting my attention, like, no, you need to pay attention. 

This is coming. And, if you miss it, you’re going to miss a really neat opportunity. And I would have missed it. And that would have been that opportunity where I was thinking about something else. I don’t know, but her telling me something that she was really excited about and me, not being engaged. 

I can think of an exact example of that. My daughter was drawing a picture at the table, and we had told her, set the table. She was really into her artwork and she got it done and was so excited about it and said, dad, look at this. And what did I see? I just saw a table not set. 

And immediately I said, oh man, did I actually say this? I’m going to go on record as saying this. I don’t care. I want the table set. And I saw in her face just drain. Right. That which she was so excited about, I said, I didn’t care about. And that moment has put, I don’t care, on my mind. And I’ve come to recognize that I tell my kids, I don’t care a ton. 

And that is a shaming phrase, right? It’s saying it’s not important. You don’t matter to me. You don’t matter. Go away. Yep. Yep. Anyway, I visibly saw her wilt and that was a high stakes moment because she was being vulnerable and wanted me to celebrate something that she did and created. 

Yeah, and I missed it. I see even digging down a little bit on some of what makes shame even at risk or that present pieces are differences, right? When kids are different than maybe mom or dad’s personality and we come from whatever perspective or angle and our kid is different from that, it’s very easy to, as we try to get them to be more like us, there’s such a moment of bringing in shame. 

I think you’re exactly right Craig. And maybe an example of that, and it’s a silly one, but I think it’s a good one for me, is that my son cares more about his hair than anybody else in our family. I don’t understand it. He’s just like Dad, I think. Yeah, well, unfortunately Daddy’s got less to work with. 

And how do I let him care about his hair while also teaching him that his hair’s not a big deal? And that’s a really tricky balance. That I want to say, son, if your hair matters to you, fine. Get up a couple minutes earlier and let’s let that happen. And I want you to know that I love you and I think your classmates aren’t going to care whether your hair looks this way or that. 

But it’s okay. But I think that’s a great example, Brian. Because it’s easy to look down on another person’s interest when it’s not your own. Yep. Oh, they really care about that. Oh, that person’s really into that. And parents are so good at that with their kids. Whether they’re teenagers or adolescents or toddlers, we look at their things and say, this is so silly. 

Yeah. So, you’re really speaking to always be receptive. All right. And knowing that those are high stakes moments as well, we need to navigate those differences, right? Yeah. Carefully. Yeah. I’ve had a student who shared a lot with me this year about the phrase of body shaming. Having comments made about her body type, I think that is such a tough area that leads to shame. If we’re making comments about their appearance or their body types or some element of their physical nature that they really don’t have much control over changing. I mean, eating healthy, we can make some adjustments in that, but just some general natures of that really puts a kid at risk and being like, I can’t change that. 

Yeah. So, you’re answering my question, when is shame most at risk? Those areas that you cannot change are going to be an area of high stakes. And I think that’s really important. Yeah. And in that space too, at least in my opinion, that God’s created women to desire to be beautiful. And I think for us as dads, especially to be really purposeful to let our girls know that we think they’re beautiful, not because of how they look or those sorts of things, but. 

We just think they’re beautiful and that we see that in them however, we see that. Yeah, because we don’t necessarily know what is going on inside of their heads and what they’re being told. And like you said, Brian, to be able to speak into that, we become kind of an inoculation to some of the shame elements that Satan wants to bring in just by appreciating them and sharing those things. Even though when things look well, that doesn’t necessarily mean behind the scenes that things are always good.  

Well, this has been so good. So practical. What else would you have before we close. I remember with one of our daughters, and it would come out often at supper time how she always found her way to spill whatever cup of drink that she had. And it started early and lasted for quite some time, actually. And we still laugh about that today, but it’s interesting. I think the element of shame can be woven in when we look at accidents versus intentional disobedience. Misbehavior. You’re right. And if we bring the heavy hand on accidents, that’s a hard line sometimes to separate out that can lead into that shaming. 

I don’t know how to stop this and here it happens. Well, let me just give you my perspective too. You just said it went and it lasted for quite a while, but it’s not going on anymore. I would guess, right? Your kids are doing really well. She’s doing really well. But we lose the forest for the trees a little bit, right? 

And in that moment of spilled milk, and that’s what the saying goes, you know, don’t cry over spilled milk, because that came from a parent who is reflecting on the past and said, oh, that’s not something we should have been so concerned about. Yeah. And that just goes so much with perspective. Yeah. 

What an opportunity we have to be like our heavenly father and like Jesus Christ in the gospel, right? Doesn’t he step into shame? Doesn’t he call people out of darkness? Isn’t that what the gospel does? That’s what Jesus and God did there in the early chapters of Genesis. Where are you? 

And we have that opportunity to really have that same interaction with our kids, to pull them out, not push them in. To be a safe place for them. To share their hearts, to explore their world. And then we get the privilege of pouring truth into that. And if we can create that kind of dynamic and modeling what Christ has given to us, what a beautiful picture. 

So, I started with this game of hide and seek that Adam and Eve played, right? Shame drove them into hiding. Well, we played hide and seek a lot at home. I think every parent with their kids plays hide and seek. I think it’s so telling. That younger child, they go into hiding and they squeal, and they think this is so much fun and, and we make our approach, and they can hear us coming up the stairs and they giggle and squeal because that little child isn’t really interested in hiding. 

That little child is interested in being found. That is why they love the game hide and seek when they’re young, but somehow the older they get, the better at hiding they are. And the game becomes about hiding. And I think that’s also at play with our children. And I think it’s so inspiring, right, that we as fathers and mothers could pull our kids out of hiding, right? That they would find the freedom that they found as young children. They’d find the freedom and the joy of being found by us and ultimately by God, right? Isn’t that what we want? Yeah. And to model that. Thanks both of you for being here. 

To our listeners, I trust and pray that this just gives you a few things to think about. We’re not going to get out of this life without some shaming, is that right? That’s exactly right. And we’re not going to get out of this life without doing some shaming. Wonderfully, Jesus is there for all of that. But if we could at least know, hey, I want to be thoughtful about how I can enjoy my kid. 

How I can help them know that at a core, they are loved. These are huge messages for them as they go into this life.