The Nature of Conflict Podcast Episode

That if we can love each other in agreement, that’s one thing, but that’s pretty easy. But if we can love each other and respect each other in these places where we disagree and we may never come together, wow, that is a reflection of Christ. That’s a reflection, I think, that’s really appealing to the world around us. 

Welcome, friends, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. It’s wonderful to have you along. Brian Sutter is with me here today. Hello, Brian. Hi, Matt. You know, conflict. is a part of our lives. It’s certainly something that we do get involved with here at ACCFS. 

Right. Where you have people together, there’s got to be a function for this type of thing. Number of people together for X amount of time in limited Y boundaries. Yeah. Output. I’ll put good things on too. Don’t get me wrong. Exactly. But that’s just not today’s topic. Right. So, tons of benefit, tons of great things. But there is going to be a residual of conflict. Yeah. Am I right about that?  

Do you know what that function is by chance? You know, I think a lot of money could be made there if you could figure out that function. So no, I don’t, but I think you’re exactly right. When we get a group of individuals, any more than one, together for an extended period of time, there are bound to be disagreements and conflict that arise with that. 

So actually, I would like to take this conversation, and I believe in a fresh nuance, okay? And that is, how do we view conflict? A really high level here. How do we deal with conflict? I don’t necessarily want to go there, which is really kind of the large answer, but I do think there’s a lot of value in how we view conflict. 

Does that make sense? The altitude we’re flying at. Yeah. No, it makes sense to me. And I think it’s a really important perspective to step back and to understand what our view of conflict is and maybe what would be a helpful view of conflict. Because without that, no matter how solid our why or how are of how to walk through it, we’re going to generally get off track and to step back and look at what it is and how do I want to view it, I think would be really helpful. 

My hope and prayer would be that with a good transcript of conflict, it will really set us out on the right foot to carry out all that we understand needs to be done to deal with it. Exactly. Yep. So, as we think about conflict, I’m thinking our listeners are probably thinking about in marriage. 

Sure. If it’s here, they’re thinking about family circles. Yeah. Fits there. Yep. And they’re thinking about community circles. Fits there. School circles, right? Professional circles. And church circles, right? Right. Yes. All of these, again, back to the function. More than one person a given amount of time strong opinions. Yeah. Okay. Well, that’s interesting. Opinions have to do with conflict, don’t they? If you stay in topics that are safe or where there are limited opinions and limited range or limited emotion behind the opinions, you’re going to probably skirt around complete agreement on opinions.  

For sure, and I think that’s an important thing to note, too, that in a day and age where there’s lots of opportunities to connect and lots of different ideas out there, we’re also geared really easily, whether it’s in our local communities or in our church community or in our family or social media. 

That we tend to get lumped together with those who have pretty similar opinions and therefore we have lost that skill of even knowing how to interact with somebody with a different opinion because we don’t know how to view conflict in a helpful way. I think you’re absolutely right. Just the algorithms that social media uses, they are geared to connecting you with stories that you’re going to want to read with a group of people that you’re going to want to connect with and then, as you say, opinions run in concert and then when we all of a sudden hit a differing opinion, we’ve kind of lost that space in our life. And we’ve already been primed to view a differing opinion in a really negative way. That’s what isolation has bred is that anybody outside of this must be out of their mind or they must be way off in the weeds. 

And instead of being able to view conflict in a helpful way, we view the other person or the other opinion as totally absurd. Well, let me just say it this way, who among us has given us a thumbs up for a differing opinion? Yeah, that’s pretty rare. That would be the test, right? 

Exactly. We save those thumbs ups for agreements. And I think this might be a really tall order, but at one level, I would want to start to view conflict as an opportunity that I think gives the opportunity for growth. It gives the opportunity for expansion. And in many ways, it gives the opportunity for connection, and we don’t see the opportunity and therefore we just run. 

So maybe part of the first thing about viewing conflict is a self-view that really comes out of humility. Exactly. Simply say, my opinion is going to be different than that of another opinion. Right. because of the way, the limited way my opinion has been constructed. And therefore, by default, of course, there’s going to be holes in my perspective and there are going to be things that I could learn and that I would actually benefit from interacting with somebody who has a differing opinion. 

Not that I have to take their opinion on as mine now or vice versa, but really, there’s probably some nuance here and we could help sharpen and strengthen each other’s perspectives if we were able to sit across from each other and have an open, honest dialogue. So, what you’re saying is the answer isn’t just wholesale acceptance of everything. 

Or even agreement, right? Right. But even just being able to view it as, maybe I don’t know everything. And, maybe this other person has something they could offer me or their perspective has something that even if I don’t agree, might help inform me and help me view them in more of a biblically consistent way. 

Okay, so I want to address a specific concept that I think is confusing. But it’s in all of our vernacular, and that’s our conscience. Oh, sure. Because I think conscience has a lot to do with the conflict that we experience. And we always say, what does your conscience tell you? There is a voice inside us. 

What do we make of this deep-seated, emotional voice, a very real, very charged area of our life. Well, I think just at a starting point, I think it would be important to acknowledge that this would be like a secular term, but also a very biblical term that a conscience is this idea of right and wrong, and that we have these internal messages or voices that communicate, oh, I should do this, or this is the right way to view this. 

That’s always speaking into us and we want to acknowledge that existence and then to be able to say, wait a second, I recognize that can’t always be accurate and what am I going to use to refine that? And am I even open to that voice, that systematic way of deciding this is right or this is wrong to being refined by something. 

Okay. You’ve said a lot in that sentence. But let’s first start with your acknowledgement that it is a biblical term. Speak a little bit about that. I think if you just even think about particularly in the New Testament and Paul’s writing, he’s often talking about those with weak conscience or he’s talking about those with a strong conscience he’s talking about, you know, that your conscience can be blameless. 

Living in good conscience. Good conscience, or a clean conscience. A seared conscience. Exactly. Yeah, it’s like, oh yeah, wait, as I think about it, there’s lots and lots of verses that have the term. Paul, and other authors as well, are speaking into that we do have a sense of right and wrong. It is there and it’s acknowledged by the Scriptures for sure. 

The way that you said that or caged that, Brian, is God has given us a conscience. He’s given everybody a conscience, right? And that conscience is a really beautiful gift. And as you’ve described it there, it is an indicator on right and wrong. Is that a good way to think about it? Yeah, I think so. And the reality that a lot of those verses we’ve talked about that conscience can be shifted either for good or for negative and just to be aware of that. 

So that we need to be a steward of our conscience. Exactly. Yeah. That it’s not a stagnant thing. And it’s really a precious thing that we want to value really highly. And also guard and shape. So how do conflict and conscience come together? Right. Well, like we talked about earlier, when you bring multiple people together, one way to think about it is that you’re bringing multiple different consciences together. 

So, nobody’s conscience is going to be a hundred percent accurate. And in that there’s going to be conflict because what I think is the right way to eat a Reese’s maybe isn’t what you’re going to think, right? Actually, Oreo is more ideal, but I actually know the best way to do it. So, I can’t believe that you would actually like Oreos more than Reese’s. 

So, we come together, right? More than one person coming together with this indicator within us about right and wrong. One person says it’s right and appropriate for me to do this thing in this setting. Another person is saying, no, that’s not right. Immediate way of conflict. Yes, exactly. 

Which I think, again, as we zoom out and we think about how to view conflict, in one way, like you’ve just articulated, we should expect conflict, that it shouldn’t surprise us. And it’s not necessarily an indication of something that’s wrong or bad as much as, of course, as we get better, more than one person together and we have different consciences that there’s going to be conflict. 

And that’s something to be expected and to be walked through rather than to be avoided or to like, you know, we have to figure out who’s right here. Okay. So even in your first explanation, you made it clear that sometimes our consciences aren’t correct. Purely correct. Right. That indicator of right and wrong. 

Can you explain a little bit about that? And I think that’s exactly the argument that Paul makes as well. Like if you look at Corinthians, you talk about Corinthians eight and nine, he’s talking about those with a weak conscience. And he’s talking about eating meat that’s been sacrificed to an idol. 

Or you look at Romans 14, the same sort of thing where he’s talking about days of the week or wine and meat, that different people have different perspectives on how that should be handled as a believer. And he’s saying, wait a second, there’s some of you over here and some of you over here, and he declares one of them as being strong in conscience, which seems to indicate that they would maybe be right according to knowledge, but also that there are other people in a different place, and that as a community of believers, that you have to be able to interact with each other with those differences, and neither one can condemn the other, even though you’re in different places. 

And therefore, I think it is a good example of the conscience giving us an indication of something being wrong when it maybe is actually right or something that’s right that’s actually wrong and that therefore our conscience needs to be refined according to the Scriptures and by the Spirit working in us and in a community of believers. 

Yeah. And so, the examples that you gave there, the Scriptures lay out, right? Things sacrificed to idols out of a strong conscience or weak conscience. I’m not sure how we define that. Yeah, sure. But coming out of the conscience of God. Judaism, right? And their dietary laws and then coming into a new Christian community, you can see how that would be amped up or Sabbath observances, right? 

Right. Which I think we could all say you observe your Sabbath and there are certain things in your mind that say, I don’t think it would be appropriate for me to do that on Sunday. Yeah. But if we were to all weigh in on that, there would be a varying spectrum of Sunday activities, right? Yeah. Great example. 

Yes. Do you mow your yard? Do you not mow your yard? Yeah. And different tasks that different people would put in different categories. And that’s just an example, one small example that can bring a lot of conflict. Yeah. And so, as we try to view that conflict, it’s important for me to have an appropriate view of another man’s conscience. 

Yeah. And I think that’s such an important key in this place where we’re thinking about how to view conflict is like, how do we view the other person? That we don’t view them and their perspective in a really harsh or judgmental or flippant way. We’re actually supposed to view them as a fellow believer as a fellow adopted member into Christ’s family. And that’s a very different perspective than just viewing their opinion to view them as a soul that’s been redeemed and in the same family that we’re in. Yeah. What we do isn’t necessarily as important as why we do it and the motive that’s behind it. 

Okay. Can I give you an example? Yeah. Let’s suppose I’ve got a jar of cookies. And suppose my kids know that you never eat cookies before chores are done. Suppose that’s the rule. Suppose I’m down there in the kitchen and one of my kids comes down and I tell him, you know what? Go ahead and eat a cookie. 

That’s fine. Today is different. And she starts in on the cookies, right? My son comes down and I’m not present, right? He’s got a conscience against eating cookies against the rule. Yeah. And without him knowing that allowance, if he digs in, he might be defiling his conscience. Right. When, legally, he’s clear to do that. 

Sure. For the one child who’s been informed that, no, the authority has now declared this to be okay, that they can eat with a clear conscience. Whereas the other, not knowing that information, not being aware of that, or not having been informed, then they’re going to be eating out of a place of like, this is rebellion, and I know I’m not supposed to, but I’m going to go ahead and do it anyways. 

So, to pressure a person against their conscience is a big deal. Yeah. To pressure somebody into saying, you must do this, or you must feel this way about something when that’s not where they’re at is out of bounds. Now that is not to say for sure we should come alongside each other and try to teach each other and inform each other’s conscience according to the Scriptures and for those things to be filled out. 

I mean, you think of even Peter in Acts where his conscience has to be formed. The Lord says, no, now you can eat these animals. That’s now open to you. And he really wrestled with that and through teaching and coming alongside and the Lord bringing him along, then he was free to eat. 

His conscience was clean, but at first, it’s like, no. And until his conscience became informed and shifted, that would have been inappropriate. I think that’s an excellent example of a healthy maturing of conscience. But really what I’m learning here, Brian, is how beautiful life is to act according to conscience and with a clear conscience. 

I think that’s a wonderful place to be and really what we want for ourselves and others, right? And in that, I think if we are in a place where we have a strong conscience or a conscience, that’s really free and is able to embrace some of those teachings, that all things are lawful, that are within the confines of the Scriptures, that’s a wonderful place to enjoy and embrace. 

And yet, it is not licensed to look at somebody else and look down on them, but to be grateful for the perspective and the maturing that maybe we’ve been granted, but recognizing there are places in our conscience that aren’t matured either, and that we need people to help mature those in us, and that we can come alongside of each other. 

And really, it’s like, what does it look like as a community of believers, a community of people to interact with each other in respectful, God honoring ways. Even though our consciences are going to be in different places of maturity on different levels all the time. So going back to my example, the cookie jar, if my daughter tells my son, oh no, eat it. 

You can eat it. You can eat it. No, you can eat it. I know you can eat it. Might get him to behave against his conscience and he’ll be feeling guilty for eating and probably be wrong for having done so. But if over time she explains the situation and the new dispensation of the day. 

Right? Right. Getting to know the master and the authority and the message that’s been given. He can eat with freedom. Right. He comes to the conclusion that I don’t have to listen to the master and maybe my understanding of what the master is saying is inaccurate and therefore I shouldn’t ever trust it. 

So yeah, I think I’m supposed to go do chores, but I won’t do that either. Alright, let’s circle, and let’s bring this back down to conflict. How does our view of conflict, now, in light of conscience and opinions and these other things, how is it enriched? Well, I guess my hope would be that it’s enriched in the sense that, for example, we see conflict as an opportunity to learn and to grow and to be able to be united with other people who are different, that we don’t have to move towards uniformity, but rather respecting and viewing each other in God honoring ways. 

I think that would be just a beautiful outcome. And let me just sanction that. It seems like that’s Paul’s intent too, doesn’t it? It seems like it. He comes back to love. Right. Which is really fascinating. It seems like when he addresses conscience, his encouragement to everybody is to honor another man’s conscience rather than set it right. Yeah, right. You know, which is kind of fascinating. Yeah. It shifts the focus away from the actual argument and making sure that I win or that my perspective wins the day into a place of, yeah, what does this look like to interact with each other well, and to value the relationship and to value what the Lord says about me as well as them higher than making sure that my perspective on whatever the topic is the one that reigns. 

Yeah. So maybe one of the thousand-dollar questions for Jesus someday is why didn’t you tune all of our consciences exactly the same? I don’t know. I don’t know either. I mean, I think that the one response that comes to mind, there certainly isn’t a full response, I think partly it’s meant to help us see that we need each other and that it’s meant to continually point us back to, we are not fully sanctified. 

We need the continual work of the Spirit in us. We need to continually be refined. And one of the means by which God does that typically is through relationships and through conflict, even though we don’t enjoy it. And many times, we don’t embrace it. It really is necessary for us to grow into the kind of people we want to be and that we’re called to be. 

Yeah. I think that explodes our minds to help us to really reframe conflict. Here’s what I’m thinking. I think my love could be questioned, actually, Brian, if you and I agreed on everything. Oh, sure. Is my love for you placed on agreement? Or is my love placed on you personally? Right. Yeah. I do think that’s a hard question to answer. 

Oh, man. In our circles of agreement. Right. And it reflects a question in the Scriptures like, who are we if we say that we love each other? But how much greater if we can love our enemies and it is exactly right that if we can love each other in agreement, that’s one thing but that’s pretty easy. But if we can love each other and respect each other in these places where we disagree and we may never come together, wow, that is a reflection of Christ. 

That’s a reflection I think that’s really appealing to the world and is a wonderful way of sharing the gospel very tangibly with each other and with the world around us. I love that. With that, let’s just draw this to a close. Dealing with conflict? Absolutely. Step into conflict, use God’s Word to address conflict. 

We all have to do that. But today, we want to just take the airplane a little bit higher and view conflict. And I think one way that we viewed it here today, Brian, is it’s not hard for us to place this discussion in some area of our life, whether it be our families, whether it be our marriages, whether it be our workplaces, whether it be our church. 

We know what agreement looks like. We know what disagreement looks like. And we trust and pray opinions, the nature of the way our consciences work, how beautiful our consciences are, the importance of consciences. God has given each one, me and my neighbor, and each one I come into contact with. He’s given them a beautiful conscience for me to respect and look out for and for my own to be continually brought into conformity of Christ. 

Thanks, each one for being here.