Rebuilding Trust Podcast Episode

It is difficult to describe and put into words the intense pain that comes from the betrayal of trust in close relationships. The whole world unravels and that comes with excruciating anxiety, deep pain of loss, chaotic experiences that you can’t describe emotionally, but then also a hypervigilance scanning the environment. Okay. Where’s the next shoe going to drop?  

Welcome everyone. Glad to have you along to another episode of Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I am Matt Kaufman. In the studio with me is Kaleb Beyer and Arlan Miller. Welcome guys. 

Thanks, Matt. You know, an observation to kick off this topic, brothers, is this observation that I tend to be hurt most by those who love me most, and I am sure that I hurt most of those whom I love. That love and hurt often get coupled together. Am I right on that? Is that anything I would agree with? 

I think the people that we love most deeply are the ones that we can also be hurt by the most deeply because they hold that leverage. Because love is vulnerability. When you engage in a relationship there will be a point where expectations are not met, disappointment settles in, but we have to walk through that. 

Then we need a skill set to get back up on our feet again through hurt to rebuild trust again. Yeah. So, if we’re going to talk about rebuilding trust, what does it look like for trust to be broken? Yeah. Kaleb, your expertise is in marriage. You’re a marriage counselor. Yeah. Really at a basic level, trust encompasses, I think, two components. One, that I believe the person I’m in a relationship with is a person of integrity, that I can trust their word. They are going to follow through on what they say and then when they make decisions in our relationship, they have my best interest in mind. They’re in tune with my needs, my emotions. Trust can be broken in what would seem like small ways and big ways. And it’s really built in the day-to-day moments of life. And it’s broken in the day-to-day moments of life. You can see this in all kinds of different relationships. 

From marriage to parenting to employee to employer to church member to church member, to neighbor, lots of areas that we have trust. And what we’re going to do is really use the life of Joseph as a case in point example of a man who navigated these waters of trust. And though the breach was huge he was able to mend it. So, Arlan, quickly, bring us up to speed, jog our memories of who this Joseph is. 

So, Joseph was one of twelve sons of Jacob, and he had eleven other brothers. And in the midst of that, at one point in his life, he was actually sold into slavery, as you’re aware of, into Egypt by his brothers. A huge sense of betrayal. Sold into slavery, even though maybe that’s conceived of when you grow up what we want to do with our siblings or whatever. And they actually carried it out and he spent his life in Egypt for dozens of years. 

They put him on a garage sale? Yeah, not quite, but kind of, I mean, the camel train came by, right? You know, they had him out there for the highest bidder. He went through a series of ups and downs in Egypt and eventually rose to a place of great prominence. And in the midst of that, his brothers come back into his life, and you see him go through a process where he learns to trust his brothers again. 

It’s a fascinating story to look through from this lens of rebuilt trust, which is so exciting. Okay. So, we’ve selected a story that couldn’t be more distrustful. We couldn’t have had a larger breach. Right. But let’s see how God has mended that, and he used some very, very clear concepts. 

So, Kaleb, speak about what those concepts are that we want to get across. The first is boundaries. Boundaries are important. Second, reliability. So, this is a follow through on what they say they’re going to do over and over again. Third, is accountability. That’s really at the heart of taking responsibility for actions. Fourth, is confidence. Don’t share or gossip. And then finally, integrity.  

Arlan, as we look at boundaries, how did Joseph employ boundaries and why was that a wise thing for him to do given what all had taken place and what was taking place with his brothers when they came on the scene, right? What you see, I think, in the example of Joseph in boundaries is that he knew who his brothers were right away. 

He, I think, had a level of forgiveness. It seems that he had a level of forgiveness for them, but he didn’t trust them right away to the same level that it was before. He protected himself. He didn’t let his identity be known right away. He protected himself for a while to play it out and see this out is a better word. 

Yeah. Now you raise this issue of forgiveness and trust. And so, Kaleb, help us with that. Are forgiveness and trust always coupled together? You get one with the other or are they better separated? Yeah, that’s a good question. I believe they’re better separated. They don’t happen simultaneously. So, forgiveness is a release of debt, right? 

And I can forgive you even though I may not trust you in the relationship. So, forgiveness is really about one individual, whereas rebuilding trust takes two individuals. And so, boundaries come into play here in order, perhaps, that we don’t race into trust. Am I understanding that right? 

I mean, is that the boundary that Joseph set? He said, okay, I don’t want to go too quickly with this. Right. And it is a critical piece here, too, though, that it wasn’t unreasonable. I mean, think about the grievous level of betrayal that took place here. I think you can get to this point, and we’ve seen it, where individuals will hold an unreasonable standard out there of what it will take before you get my trust back. 

You know, burned once, never going to be burned again, and you have to be perfect forever before that trust is given back to someone. So, boundaries need to be reasonable. But it is healthy to have a certain level of boundaries in place. So, have you seen situations, Kaleb, where perhaps trust is extended maybe too quickly? 

Yeah, I have seen in some situations where perhaps trust was extended out of maybe guilt, that’s something I need to do, or I should be doing, where there are still red flags. But their forgiveness is not held hostage. No, absolutely not. By this trust that has not yet been established. So that’s important that a distinction is made. 

But they’re expecting to see a pattern of change, which I think leads us to the next principle where you talk about reliability and consistency, potentially over time. Am I following through on what I say? I’m going to do right in my building that component that we talked about earlier that you can trust my word, right? 

What I say is true. There’s no deceit. There’s no lying behind that, but I will follow through on what I say I’m going to do. And that kind of reliability and that reliability over time then leads to, yeah, maybe I can start beginning to trust that individual. Maybe their behavior now is showing and singing a different tune, if you will, than the betrayal that happened in the past. And you start to open up the door of your heart, so to speak, to them a little bit more and more as you see that consistency, that reliability built into their lifestyle.  

And by definition, consistency and reliability are much more than one data point. So, to say, see, I didn’t do it, therefore you should trust me. Well, I need to see I didn’t do it over time. Yes. And so that means trust comes over time. I don’t know that trust can come over time without time duration. Is that what we see in Joseph’s life? Definitely. I mean, you see multiple years. This is a 20-year span of when the breach happened to when the brothers came back. 

And you see over a period of months and years, several different interactions, several different episodes where they are rebuilding and gaining that trust back over that time. And I think that is important if you’re listening today and you find yourself on the side of one who has breached trust with someone or one who has betrayed someone. 

It is not unreasonable for that other party to be expecting consistency over time before they give that trust back to you. It takes time and you need to be willing if you are surrendered and broken about this to earn that trust by showing it through your actions. So, the third one you mentioned, Kaleb, was accountability. What’s the nature of that? So, the nature of accountability is acknowledging and taking full responsibility where we have wronged an individual, where we have betrayed an individual, where we just plain messed up. And I think we can see this certainly in the life of Joseph, and we can also see it in other accounts in Scripture. 

But I think one of the things is that it sends a message. So, if I betray my wife, and I acknowledge and take full responsibility for my sin, I’m also acknowledging the pain that it caused her. It’s appeasing the pain that her heart is crying out to when I’m taking full responsibility, and not blaming or accusing others for my actions. 

Yeah. And that’s really, I think, critical in the rebuilding of our relationship. Of trust in a relationship, we can fall into this trap of, yes, I failed, but, and then we start to fill in the line. If we’re not careful, we, I think we are most likely to excuse ourselves and to have a reason as to why I did what I did. 

But when a person truly is repentant and accountable, those excuses start to fade away, and they are approaching a rebuilding trust situation with their excuses, but with a true desire to want to reconcile and rebuild. Sometimes I think we think, yeah, I know I did betray your trust, so does everybody, you know, if you go up and down our street, how many people are dealing with this exact same thing? 

I mean, there’s truth to everything that was said there, but I’m missing something big, Kaleb. So, you put your finger on it. What am I missing? It may be to that person down the street, but to the person across the room that you betrayed, it’s about them and it’s about their heart, right? 

So, when you compare to situations out there, it minimizes, and doesn’t acknowledge the deep pain and hurt that the individual went through when in this relationship the trust was broken. So, here’s the deal. Here’s the bottom line. As an offender, I am totally unqualified to say exactly what that means to the other person. 

Does that make sense? Yes. Because that’s what I want to do. I want to say, yes, I’ll take responsibility for my offense, but this is what it should mean to you in light of X, Y, and Z. Yeah. But I don’t have that responsibility at all. No. And it goes back to the boundary piece. 

Who are you to tell me what my emotional experience is? Right. Yeah. So, this is my experience, and part of that is when you value my experience, and you connect with my pain. Joseph was peeking into their conversations, and they are acknowledging and taking full responsibility. 

That is incredibly healing, incredibly soothing, right, of the pain that comes from the betrayal. And that really leads to this next point of confidence that we talked about in the trust rebuilding process. And again, confidence is that when we disclose information, when we share ourselves, our thoughts, our needs, that those are kept in confidence in that relationship. 

It’s not shared outside of the relationship, which is crucial. For me to begin to be vulnerable leads to rebuilding trust in the relationship. It really speaks back to an earlier principle of reliability and consistency. Over time, if I find that what I am sharing in confidence or in private with an individual, then it’s getting scattered out amongst other people. And it’s coming back to me. It’s going to totally violate the sense of reliability that person holds in my eyes at this point. You know, holding things in confidence is a tremendous way to show love and respect for the other person.  

And this really goes for both the offender and the offended. If the offended holds in confidence how they’ve maybe been wounded, if it’s not appropriate to share, you know what I’m saying? I mean, I understand that there are times things need to be shared. But to protect the offender. Right? And the offender protects the offended. What an act of love, and it’s an act of love because if we are holding things in confidence, that means we’ve had to say no to ourself to share something that would have felt good, it would have fit in the conversation, it really would have won me with the buddies or helped me with the ladies or something. 

There would have been some reason for me to share, but I didn’t in that private moment. And the only one who knows I didn’t is God, because of my love for the other. Isn’t that amazing? And I think that becomes very hard today to maintain this level of confidence in a society that prides itself in instant communication, share your heart, share your hurts, get out there on social media or whatever. 

It becomes even more difficult and a good proving ground as to how serious I am about reconciling and rebuilding trust with this individual. Am I willing to maintain confidence, even when everything around me is saying blast it out there, over the airwaves? That’s a fascinating point and part of that whole story. 

How Joseph inquired and asked and required that they bring Benjamin. How does that whole point play in Joseph rebuilding trust? Because it seemed like that was a scheme of his and he was doing it for some purpose. On two levels, it shows reliability, like we talked about before, that they promised that they would bring Benjamin back. 

And so, by bringing him back, it showed reliability. Secondly, it showed a sense of integrity, right? And honesty, which is the final principle that we talk about. Sure, because are they going to hang Benjamin out to dry like they hung me out to dry? Yes. Right. How integrable are they? They say this is what they’re going to do, but will they? 

Yeah. There’s another fascinating incident in that story where the money is put back in their sacks. They could have pretended like, oh, that never happened and kept the money. But when they return the next time, they share that. They have the integrity to share that and say, look, our money was back in our sacks. 

You know, they showed it. We didn’t spend it. Here it is. They show a repentant heart to that regard there. If I’m going to trust someone, I need to know that they are going to have integrity with me. Integrity is important because oftentimes within broken trust, there is deceit, which is the seed bed of mistrust. Yes. And of spoiled trust.  

Yeah. You know, I think, as we talked here, this is very hope filled for both the offender and the offended. As I hear this discussion, I hear that the offended has been equipped by some thoughts. It’s like, you know what? Yes, I’ve forgiven, but it’s okay for me to protect myself. It’s okay for me to work towards trust and to be wise as Joseph was wise about giving that trust, but also for the offender to think, ah, this is how I do it. Reliability, consistency, accountability, boundary. And to me, I think that’s tremendously good news. It is. And I think there’s one more point to make, too, in that story. 

There’s a great verse at the very end of the story that I love where he speaks back to the big picture and to the sovereignty of God. And he says, you meant it for evil, but God meant it for good. He saw God’s working through all of that, despite all of the poor choices, the inappropriate choices, the wrong choices by individuals in this story. 

He saw a God that could still redeem that and use that for a greater purpose. And then what you’re left with is a really solid trust. Which is exactly what we want. And you can see how powerful that is when Joseph finally reveals himself. And it says he weeps so loud that people within the palace can hear it. 

And so deep, deep within him to see the reconnection of trust to his brothers that betrayed him. And you know, in his heart, that’s what he longed for. And to see that unfold was just a very powerful, very beautiful thing. So, Kaleb, I’d like to direct to you this question, or this opportunity at the close of this podcast. 

You’re speaking to some who have offended. They are the offender. What message would you want them to go home with? There is hope for personal restoration. Allow God to work through that process. Have you seen from your own experience with working with people that the offender does regain trust again? 

Absolutely. In fact, Matt, I would testify in a number of cases, that trust is built back more strongly after that in some cases than it was previously. And would you say the strength of that trust is somewhat dependent upon this process? And because the process is robust and requires so much thought and activity and God’s Spirit and God’s sanctification, that that trust is stronger. 

Yeah, you’re saying that this relationship is so important, I’m in it for the long haul. I’m going to do what it takes. Okay. And finally, Kaleb, a word to the offended, those that have been offended. What would you have them take away from this podcast? One is the reality that it is incredibly painful to be offended. Also, an encouragement not to minimize that. But there are times in the process that the offended, when the markers are there, there’s going to be a leaning into the rebuilding of trust that part of their emotional experiences are going to be some of the fear. Yeah, absolutely. But when evidence is there of the offender leaning into the process, those behaviors are validated, even in certain cases by acknowledging those behaviors when, even when they say, I’m not quite there yet, but I know that you’re really trying that can go a long way for the offender to hear that. 

Even when the offended is a bit tired or hesitant to lean into the process. So, lean into it. It’s something worth fighting for. Yes, absolutely. Thanks a lot, Arlan. Thanks a lot, Kaleb, for being with us here today and helping us through the nuts and bolts of life, of relationship, of trust. 

Wherever there is failure, there’s going to be a lack of trust and a reason to rebuild it, and we’re so thankful that God through Christ is the broken bread here in this situation, as well as in all of them, that can restore trust. So, thanks for being with us. And to our listeners, thanks. Also, we trust and pray that this has been helpful to you. 

Have a great day.