Be Still & Know Podcast Episodes

Hello and welcome. Thanks for tuning in to Breaking Bread. I’m Matt Kaufman. Thanksgiving is right around the corner and to help prepare our hearts and minds, I would like to replay a conversation I had with Kaleb Beyer and Ryan Sutter in our Joyfully Living series on the issue of Thanksgiving. I pray it will be helpful in gathering your thoughts for Thanksgiving.

Kaleb, what do we mean by living with thanksgiving and how does that have anything to do with the joyful life? There are several references throughout Scripture where we’re reminded to be thankful. It’s really about expressing gratitude for goodness in our lives, or the goodness in the lives of others.

It doesn’t mean that it always comes easily. Or that it comes naturally, but it’s something that is good for us. And I think the beauty that I look forward to unpacking is how that can bring joy to our life, which seems a little bit counterintuitive right off the start, that thanksgiving would be a part of the prescription for joyful living.

Whereas typically we might think that thanksgiving might be the outgrowth of a joyful life. Am I right with that juxtaposition? We are called in Scripture to thankfulness. Period. And so, at times, that’s going to be a lot more difficult when we’re not starting in a place that’s easy or things are going our way, and then we’re thankful.

But what does it look like to start with thankfulness regardless of circumstances? And I think first and foremost for us as believers to be able to be thankful because we know of God and his goodness, and that’s really the foundation where we start. So, therefore, no matter what our circumstances are, we can focus on that. But no doubt that can be a challenge.

You’ve got me as your client here across the table with a furrowed brow saying, all right, I’m supposed to be thankful. I’ve just come to you, Kaleb, and shared all these problems. Okay, but how do you counsel your clients who are going through hard stuff, and you bring up this thanksgiving piece and they furrow their brows, look at you and say, seriously! Now, what are some of the talking points that you give to help bring that person to the point of thankfulness?

If we’re working with somebody or even ourselves in the midst of really hard, painful things, we would not start with thankfulness. I think we would start with mourning and weeping with them and hurting. So, I think if that’s where you’re at, that’s part of the journey, but the process of then moving into it is hard, and now I want to start looking for those small things. What does it look like to rejoice and the fact that there’s food on the table, even though I don’t want to eat it?

What does it look like to be able to say, thank you, Lord? Even in sacrifice. What I hear from this too is a bit of normalizing what we mean by thankfulness. And I think coming into this conversation we might think that, well, thankfulness is easy. Thankfulness is automatic. Thankfulness comes out when I am thankful. Yeah. But what you’re suggesting is quite different. And I think that’s encouraging. Yeah, that is the point.

And I think it even goes back to some of the earlier podcasts that we talked about, but just accepting the fact that this is hard. Allowing yourself to be in difficulty while you struggle and you fight for thankfulness, that is a good thing to do. Even though it’s very painful that we’re in spots that, quite frankly, we aren’t thankful for but even beginning the practice of expressing that when we don’t feel it can be a step right in the right direction.

You know, I think of Paul and Silas in prison, in the Philippian jail, right? And they are singing praises to God. And the question that occurred to me is I’ve often thought that they must have been happy, therefore they were singing. Or was happiness an outgrowth of their singing? You know what I’m saying? Do you follow that? I do. And I think that’s a great example of depending on how you look at your circumstances. So, for them it was, we’re counted worthy to suffer for the gospel, and out of that pours thanksgiving.

It makes me think that every good gift and perfect gift comes from above. And that as we begin to cultivate that gratitude in thanksgiving, as hard as it is, it points us back to the author or the giver of those good things. And so, it connects us with Brian was talking about, right? It connects us with the source of life. And so, you’ve made a direct link, Kaleb, to being thankful and having faith, and so we might link these two terms together. It requires faith to be thankful. Am I right with that? Oh, I think so. I think it requires faith when you read a verse, whatever that is, to believe that, to hold on to that and rejoice in that. When everything around you seems the opposite.

Exactly. It takes faith to walk through that. And now that brings some clarity to me, like, oh, that’s why God asked me to be thankful because it is worship to him and it’s evidence of faith towards him. So, you’re challenging me to a much more mature view of thanksgiving than what we might be teaching to our children to say thank you after something.

Yeah. You know, I’m fascinated a little bit by where thanksgiving arises in history. We have the Thanksgiving holiday and what did that come out of? Well, it came out of an awful winter at Plymouth, right? And then we have Abraham Lincoln setting that aside as a national holiday.

Well, when did he do that? Well, that was during the Civil War, I believe Martin Rinkart in a battle on the cusp of being under siege in Germany. He writes this hymn, Now thank We all our God. So, we see that some of the most profound and impactful thanksgivings in history come on the cusp of what you’re speaking of here today.

Yeah. I think it is one of those fascinating things in life where our natural tendency is, give me the easy road and then I’ll be thankful. But always in Scripture and I think as you’re just describing there in history, it says that through hard things. It helps us see things when they are positive or when they are good. And out of that portion comes thanksgiving. It’s not necessarily that you wake up and every day it is 70 degrees. I remember I was so impacted when I was a young man. There was an older brother who stood up and prayed to start off a Sunday School morning, and it was just a terrible, awful day.

The only reason I remember that is because he said, Lord, thank you for days like this that make me grateful for the days that are 65 and nice. And I’m like, what is this guy talking about? But it just stuck with me. It was just fascinating. And that day was redeemed in a sense. Yes. In terms of its worth.

Yeah. Right. He saw the value in it and saw that even though, by the very nature of the day, it was not necessarily a good day. It cultivated thankfulness because he anticipated the good that was down the road, or he remembered the good that he experienced before. Yeah. That was contrasted by the struggle that was there.

And that’s a huge aha for me, even right now as we sit here thanksgiving redeems the situations in our life. So, I feel like it really is incumbent upon the answer to this question I’d like to pose to you brothers, because I feel like if depending on the answer to this question, I see thanksgiving as doable, but without it, I don’t see it doable.

And that is this. Is God able to wield good out of every dark situation of my life? Because if the answer to that question is yes, then I can muster up thanksgiving. But if the answer to that is no, then I think this is just pie in the sky stuff. That’s right.

But you’re exactly right, if God is able to redeem there’s hope and then thanksgiving makes sense, but if he’s not, there’s nowhere to go and nowhere to turn. So, I think I, in my mind, a fundamental key to thanksgiving is seeing God for who he is and being able to trust that he’s big enough to have all of it in his hands, even though it doesn’t make sense to you right here, right now, it may not make sense to anybody.

But we say, I trust the one that’s over all of this. Yeah. And I think that connects that piece of faith, the foundation piece, or connecting the faith with thanksgiving, even when I can’t see it, when I don’t have the ability to bring it to mind that in this darkness or struggle that God can bring light that he can redeem it. And I think that actually speaks right out of the writings of some of the sages of the past. I think of St. John of the Cross who would write and talk about when all of the five senses fail, you’re left with faith. And that’s what I’m hearing a little bit, and I think my Thanksgiving in the past has been propped up by my five senses.

But what you’re suggesting is that sometimes when the five senses fail us, and then we are left only with the facts of God. Can I worship and be thankful? And when I do, I worship faithfully in the truest sense. I think that’s accurate, and I guess what I would say with that is to encourage people. There are some of you right now who are in the midst of the dark and difficult, and I want to encourage these things in you.

And I would also say, those of you who are not, this is a great time to just pour foundation, like try over the next week when you thank the Lord that it’s not about any of your circumstances. It’s based on who God is versus what he’s given you. Like it’s okay to thank him for the food that’s on your plate but try to be bigger than that this week to build a foundation that says, Lord, I am grateful because I know you are the provider.

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. Can you speak from experience, having talked to a lot of clients and more broadly than that, your life experience that you have found. You have interacted with people with deep hurts who have exercised this and thereby have lived joyfully. I would say yes to that.

And as I reflect on who I want to be at the end of life’s road, what do I want to look like? I think of men and women that I’ve either sat across from, or that I’ve met with over lunch or interacted with life. Those are the kind of men and women that I’m just like, Lord, give me that.

So, you’re saying yes to my question, you have interacted with them. And I’ll give you a chance, Kaleb, to jump in on this as well, but you’re also saying, Brian, that is like the most compelling life. Yeah. Right. It’s one that if you could embody or example, it would be that one.

Yes. And to go back to your point earlier, when you see that in people, you see it being forged not by freedom of challenges, but you see that forged in them walking through the challenge, through the fires. Those are the men and women who seem to have that. So, the thing that I have to remind myself of is that if that’s what I want, I don’t get the good end to it without the other. So, that means I’m going to go through fires and depending on how I walk through that and where my mindset is, either it takes me to that place where I want to go or it takes me to the other side of that bitter, angry, everything is awful perspective and we’ve seen that as well.

And that’s not a place we want to end either. That’s terrific, Kaleb. And to answer your question, I absolutely think that’s the beauty of being able to walk alongside individuals who walk through those struggles and to see them come out of that with thanksgiving and to see life and light shine through darkness. It is to walk with individuals who are in a hard place or couples in a hard place, and then to witness how God redeems that.

And how motivating that is and, and now that speaks to the joy that we’re talking about here. I can think if we have a difficult situation that we’re carrying and it drains us of joy, before this conversation, I would’ve thought, okay, we want to be joyful. That means we need to resolve this situation.

After all, it is draining my joy. But you’re suggesting in this conversation that there are two ways, perhaps more, but two ways. Yeah. Resolve that situation so that you’re happy with it, but one that we can do right now would be to give thanks in it. And we acknowledge this is not easy.

Yeah. And I think in doing that, in the midst of it, another thing that can hang people up is this belief that, well, if I’m going to be thankful, that means I need to feel it. And you’re not always going to feel it. That’s not a requirement for thankfulness. So, here’s a hypothesis. The more difficult it is the more worshipful. Do you think that’s true? Yeah. The more difficult the issue to give thanks the more faith that we are relinquishing to God. I think that’s an option. Yes. I think that’s helpful. Sometimes the darker the situation, the more poised we are to give glory to God through the avenue of things.

Yes. And I think if we can look at it through that perspective, again, it gives us hope and gives us a lens through which to be thankful for. But if we look at it through the lens of this is too big for me, or why, or this doesn’t make sense.

Then the bigness of how dark it is takes us down that road of Satan being able to devour us. Mm-hmm. So, I think you’re right. The darker the night, the bigger the redemption and the glory and you see that commonly through the Scripture. You know, the Lord strips away until there’s no other hope than him. If he doesn’t show up, you’re done.

Right. I love this story, and you’ve probably read it and our listeners are probably aware of the story of Corrie ten Boom. And there in the Hiding Place, the book that she wrote, she and her sister were in a concentration camp in Ravensbruck. And they had fleas in the camp barracks just awful. And it was miserable. And Betsy, Corrie’s sister, turns to Corrie and says, we need to give thanks for the fleas. And Corrie said, alright, stop already. You know, you’ve been telling me to be thankful this whole journey, but I’m putting a stop at the fleas.

There’s no reason we need to be thankful for these fleas. Well, they were thankful for the fleas and on and on it goes. And it wasn’t until afterwards that they found out the guards at Ravensbruck would not go into those barracks. Because of the fleas. And because they weren’t coming into the barracks, they had Bible studies and led women to Christ. Wow. It was the fleas.

But we’re not wise enough to know what we shouldn’t give thanks for. Yeah. I think that’s a powerful reminder that if we could see things through God’s eyes, we would always give thanks. But we’re not always given that privilege and therefore, it comes back to that faith of just trusting that’s the case. That he is working out something good here, even in the midst of things that cannot be good in our mind and in our eyes. Yeah. Which I think really ties back into some of the intentionality pieces, right?

As we think about that, this doesn’t come naturally and we’re not able to see it. It becomes practice in cultivating something that’s a process over time that we continually come back to. It’s not a point that we achieve but something we grow into. And Brian, you made this point from some of the things that you mentioned, that we should probably be practicing this.

Maybe I’m in a situation right now that doesn’t have a lot of hurt and maybe things are going smoothly. Some of our listeners may think life isn’t going smoothly. Should we expect that thanksgiving is going to bubble forth when we’re tried if we’re not actively being thankful in the good times? Right. I mean that does seem to be incongruent. I think that’s just such an important thing for all of us to remember that we are called to this no matter where we’re at, and if we don’t practice and cultivate that in our lives when there aren’t really difficult circumstances, to try to build that and start that in the midst of hurt and pain is setting yourself up for a harder road. So, it’s wise to start right here, right now.

Yep. I think the analogy of gardening and putting the seeds in the ground that brings forth the fruit is good here and attending to it and fertilizing it so that the fruit of gratitude and thanksgiving can continue to come forward. And I’m challenged by this conversation just to even think, how do I teach my children? Okay, because you know what? It has been on the end of circumstance, so maybe the next time they’re sad, I should say, sweetie, let’s give thanks for that. Right? And you didn’t get something from somebody. Well, let’s say thank you.

Yeah. Dad, you have lost it. What are you talking about? You need a reeducation on thanksgiving. That’s right. Yeah. And it does. I mean, you give that silly example, but it’s so true. It just speaks to how much that goes against our nature and therefore doing this is so hard and it’s really Christian.

I don’t know how you could have this viewpoint or have this lifestyle without having a faith in God. And be a Christian. Yeah. Right. What is thanksgiving outside of that understanding? Oh, my goodness. If you don’t have that context, that in the darkness there is redemption, there is light.

It’s law. I mean you have to wait for the results. Yeah. If the circumstances don’t change, there’s nothing to be thankful for. Yeah. I mean, that’s all it would be based on, apart from a biblical worldview that says God is in control. He’s at work here. We are created in his image, so on and so forth. Without those fundamental things present, thankfulness is a shallow thing that’s based on circumstances

Brothers, thank you. This is so hugely important, and I think it speaks just exactly to what we’re talking about with being joyful. And this is a huge action point, very challenging for me. I know that it’s impactful and will be from this day forward.

I’d like to conclude just by painting a brief picture of Jesus. He’s there on the mountainside and there’s 5,000 around him. Everybody’s hungry. There’s no food to be eaten. He’s getting approached by people. He’s no doubt, worn thin. He calls a little boy aside. They get this small sack lunch. And in the midst of that, the first thing Jesus does is give thanks. Isn’t that amazing? And then out of that thanksgiving pours sustenance. Food. Everything they wanted. Isn’t that what we’re speaking of today? In the midst of that need, Jesus expressed thanksgiving as a reaction. And then blessing follows. Yeah. Thanks again for being with us and bringing clarity to these issues.

And to our listeners. Wishing you a blessed Thanksgiving.

The spiritual discipline of quietness is the topic today on Breaking Bread. Welcome. And to my guest, Brian Sutter, it’s good to have you back. Thanks. Good to be with you, Matt. Brian, we unpacked a vision for quietness and the importance of it in the life of a believer in the last episode. And so, as we move forward, let’s talk about the practical steps that follow.

What does the quiet life look like and how do we practically live it out? So, part of it, one concept that comes to mind here is just the picture or the instruction in Scripture to take thoughts captive. So, in my mind, it’s not that we’re able to completely control our mind and only allow this in and only allow that out.

That’s not as much in my mind taking our thoughts captive as much as being able to say, okay, there it is. I see that distracting thought that’s taken me into what I could be doing, but I want to move on from that and get into this place of just enjoying the rest that I have in the Lord. And so that sometimes is just a review of his Scriptures or of the gospel.

I think sometimes I have found it beneficial to put my hand over my mouth. Because I find myself so quickly going into requests or going into pushing, kind of talking. I think of Peter on the Mount of Transfiguration. He’s in this wonderful moment and he just starts talking. Yes. And God announces and he draws quiet. And I find myself that way too. I don’t like the silence, and so I start to fill it, and so sometimes I put, put my hand over my mouth and quietly meditate on what the gospel says.

Yeah. I think those truths you read earlier in the day in your devotion time or earlier in the week or that passage comes to mind from this sermon earlier or favorite verse or whatever, that we direct our minds and meditate as Scripture would teach us on Scripture itself. There is life and that is going to teach us quietness and focusing on God’s Word is a good thing that will change us in the ways that we want to be changed. And so, we’ve broached a topic, we’ve used the term meditation, which is very scriptural. As Psalm 1 says meditating day and night. We see that replete in the scriptures.

And it is a discipline. In fact, I’ve heard it said that most Christians read, some Christians memorize, but few Christians meditate. And so, there is somewhat of a growth pattern there, and we’re really, in this conversation, calling to meditation. But let’s make a distinction here to the yoga Eastern mysticism meditation. That’s very pervasive right now. Yeah. It’s very common, and right now I think our conversation would resonate with a lot of unbelieving people saying, yeah, right on. But we do need to draw a distinction here. Yeah, I think that’s a great point. I think in the world we live in and the culture we live in, that meditation has its own connotations that have been brought into it.

And I think in many ways the Eastern religions have kind of stolen that. And so, to be able to say, okay, what are we talking about and make that distinction, is important. And the way that I would think of that difference would be that an Eastern mindset of religion, the goal is to empty yourself and be able to find that good in you. And that’s where purpose in life comes from. Interesting. Yeah. Whereas from a biblical perspective, when we’re talking about meditation, we’re talking about purposefully filling our minds with what is true, what is scriptural and what is from God, and we are trying to rid ourselves or empty ourselves of ourselves.

Yeah. Which is nearly the opposite of what we’re talking about from the Eastern perspective. Yeah. So, I’m going to recap and like you to hear this, but from that Eastern perspective, you rid yourself of the world because you and of yourself are good and we understand ourselves to be bad. We need to rid ourselves of us and fill ourselves with truth.

Yes. With God. Yeah. I think there is one other distinction, which maybe is going further than we need to, but I think from an Eastern perspective, really the goal is to get rid of all desires. You know, if you meditate long enough, all of a sudden you don’t have any more desire and then whatever comes is okay. And, and I think, again, that can be something that can be twisted into a Christian perspective. That’s not what we’re talking about. It’s not that we want to have a lack of desire. We want to have a desire for God. We want to have a desire for what is good according to Scripture. And therefore, we should have passion, we should have fire, that we should have something in us that drives us.

It’s not that we’re just empty and nothing’s there. It’s that we are filling up with the right things, and this is what’s fascinating. As you can see, I think sometimes you can find, I believe, the very precious things of God’s creation and gifts towards us by observing Satan’s counterfeit of those things.

So, he has foiled this, he has seen the impact of rest, quietness, meditation, and so he has provided his counterfeit. Right. You see that over and over that Satan is very good at finding what is good and like you said, corrupt it by just twisting it enough. That robs it of its purpose and its joy and its goodness, and then it destroys people.

Let’s now talk then about that meditation, which God has inspired in what he calls us into, and you’ve mentioned some of those things. But let’s talk a little bit about what that looks like. Yeah. For real. Yeah, sure. There are lots of different ways. So, you could think of prayer in some sense as a form of meditation. You could think of, you know, after you’ve done your devotion and spending some quiet time for five minutes just sitting there and meditating on the words you’ve read as meditation. You could think about turning the radio off on your way to work and just sitting in the quietness and just trying to be in the quietness as meditation.

So, I think it can look lots of different ways and they all can have their different value and different purpose. Yeah. But it is distinct from studying the Bible, for example, and doing a Bible study. It’s distinct from that. And in what ways is it distinct? Well, I think when you’re sitting and you’re studying the Word, you’re going to be going through and reviewing this concept here and okay, it says therefore, so what are the words before therefore, and you know, teasing all of that out. You’re pouring over it, you’ve got your Bible open, you’re making some notes over here, and you’ve got your other books over here, and you’re just sorting through it all.

And you’ve got all these resources, whereas meditation might be okay, you know what, I’ve just read this verse, and we’ll just take a simple one like Psalm 23, the Lord is my Shepherd. I just want to roll my chair back and just think about what that means. What picture does that paint? That the Lord is my shepherd. Yeah. You know, as you start to paint this picture, Brian, this is what occurs to me.

Okay. And sometimes when we study the Bible, the Bible is the subject. And we are the agent, and we are studying the subject. And we are parting the words and we’re looking those things up. It is a subject. We are the agent and in this meditation piece with the Scriptures, we are the subject, and the Scriptures are the agent.

And we allow ourselves to be opened up and the Scripture to bear itself upon our hearts. An easy thing, which I often use, is to emphasize different words as I read it. So, you might read, the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want, and I might emphasize loudly, the Lord is my shepherd. I shall not want. The Lord is my shepherd that I shall not want. The Lord is my shepherd. And every time I say it with a different emphasis. The verse comes alive in different ways. Yeah. I think there’s great value in studying Scripture and understanding it is very important.

And I think in many ways to be able to sit back and meditate after we have some understanding is a great way that it takes charge of us and it changes us. It moves from just knowledge, which is key. And that’s exciting. I like that. So, meditation takes it from the head to the heart concept. That’s how we bring that down to our heart and elicit worship too. Oh, I think studying the Bible elicits knowledge and understanding, and this meditation often elicits worship. Yeah. I think that’s a fair statement and hopefully there will be worship in both.

Absolutely. For sure. But I think you’re right that meditation is definitely going to stir us towards that place of hopefully being in awe of God and being able to just see how small we are. And what better thing to do than that. I mean, if we could all exercise that discipline, I think that would not only change us, but it would change our world.

Yeah. It’s just a side point here. What I think is fascinating as you look at church history, we go in different waves, strengths, and clarity from studying the Scriptures, which I think is strong now. And if you go back hundreds of years ago to monasticism which involves reflective worship. Scriptures illicit worship, and that would be primary. And isn’t it interesting to see that longer story. You know? Yeah. And I think there’s something to be learned there. Oh, yeah. I wish I knew more about history because I think you’re right.

We look down the valleys of time. There is so much to be learned. I think oftentimes at night when I’m sitting there in my house. It’s 10 o’clock at night, and yet I’ve got access to anything and everything I could ever want at my fingertips. And to think back, even just a few hundred years, I would be in the dark and have no other option, but maybe a candle. And what would I do then? How different would my world look? And probably, in a lot of ways, how good that would be for me.

You know, it’s really interesting that you say that. It made me chuckle. I read a quote here by an economist in 1930, John Menard Keynes predicted that his grandchildren’s generation would only have to put in three-hour workdays because of all the inventions that would take care of everything. Right. And so, you can imagine this man. Yeah, right. The dishwasher may have been coming in, and people are mowing their lawns. And that’s the same way we are. We live in this world where we would think his prediction meant we have nothing to do but this quietness, but instead, that’s simply not the case.

No. I mean, it does make you chuckle when you think of that because obviously things have gone in a very different direction that, I think, speaks to the human heart. We get captivated so easily by the wrong things and so productivity is not bad. You know getting lots of things done is not bad. I mean, we are even called to have dominion. Yeah. You know, those sorts of things. So, those are good and right, but whenever we find something that helps us do something more quickly, we fill that extra time up with something else to pursue and I think we just need to be aware of that.

Yeah. And what do we want to do with that? And these are some of the hindrances that we have to compete against. I am becoming more and more convicted, Brian, by my cell phone use. Yeah. I am using it inappropriately and it is becoming the filler of my activity. Yeah. Right. So, while I’m waiting for the microwave to ding, or the kids are at the park or, whatever, it’s like, oh, I’ve got a spare minute. Let me check this. Let me check that. Let me see this and see that. Yeah. Are we pushing God out of the cracks in our lives? Yeah. To me, one of the things that we do today very poorly is just sitting and thinking. Like, we never take time just to sit and think, where are we at, where are we headed?

And therefore, we just float along in a very passive nature of whatever’s easiest to do. And I would just echo your thoughts on the cell phone. Yesterday morning I woke up and the first thing I did with my cell phone was check Facebook. And I was just so disgusted. I decided yesterday to do a week fast from Facebook. Just like, yeah, this is ridiculous. I’m not going to wake up and check Facebook before I do anything else. Yeah. This is not going to happen. But that’s what my heart does. Yeah. And I have noticed in myself, my phone is in my pocket, and I have this in between time, whether putting the kids to bed and I’ve got in between times between them brushing their teeth or crawling into bed or whatever that in between time is.

The phone just kind of calls me. And what I fear is that I’m losing that ability for quietness or I’m losing that discipline. Yeah. And it needs to be redeemed, and it needs to be exercised. And then I’m wondering, well, you know, what are my kids seeing in my life?

Do they see quietness? Do they see a father who is ruled by God or ruled by all of these other fillers. Yeah, I think that’s a really good question and for us to be able to engage those sorts of things and like you’re talking about there, I think just modeling what’s important to us and being able to retrain our minds to say that while quietness is uncomfortable and maybe it’s not particularly valued in our society, there is value there and this is a discipline that I want to exercise.

And Brian, with that, let’s draw this episode to a close. I completely agree that there is a great deal of value in the spiritual discipline of rest, and I’m convinced by the points that have been made that I can grow in this area and should grow in this area. Thank you for being with us and helping in this conversation.

We look forward to another and final episode in this series of being Still and Knowing God. And in the final episode we’re going to talk a little bit about Sabbath rest as we realize that it is part of the 10 Commandments. And so, God has a great deal invested in the discipline of quietness and the life of the believer.

Thanks for being with us.

Keep the Sabbath Day holy. We know this is one of the 10 Commandments. We are speaking about the issue of quietness in the life of the believer and rest. Welcome back to Breaking Bread for our third and final episode in the series Be Still and Know that God is with me. I have Brian Sutter with me. Welcome back.

Thanks. Good to be with you, Matt. Brian, I am fascinated by the 10 Commandments. Keeping the Sabbath is one of the 10. You know, I’ve been challenged recently. We look at that list of 10 Commandments. All of them would convict me of sin. But maybe that one more than most. Yeah.

Isn’t that fascinating? Yeah, it is. And what does that even mean? What does it mean to keep the Sabbath? If we never think about that, if we never take the quietness just to reflect on that, what we end up doing is we neglect the scriptural teachings not because we’re not reading them, not because we’re not hearing them on Sunday necessarily, but because we never think about them in between and therefore they never take effect.

Right. And I feel like that’s what’s happening in my own heart as I reflect on that particular commandment, right? Do I keep Sabbath? If you sit and you meditate, it can be painful to realize that I’m not keeping the Sabbath holy, or when this tells me to love my neighbor or whatever it is, that when we sit and think and meditate on those, they are going to expose our heart to the reality that, wow, we still need Jesus.

You can’t have rest without Jesus. Yes. He’s the giver of that rest. And then his promise is that we will find rest unto our souls. He is meek and lowly. There seems to be a great reward out there in that quietness and physically and spiritually entering into the rest of Christ.

Because ultimately as it exposes those things that we aren’t following or we’re not doing well, again, it directs us back to being justified. It’s based on Christ, and it leads to that worship, and it just brings it all full circle. That is a glorious thing to be able to see and experience.

It’s interesting as you do a scriptural search on rest, you see it introduced in Genesis, and you see it concluded in Revelation. And it says that there will be no rest for those who are in punishment in hell fire, and that there will be rest for those who are saved in eternity.

There’s a complete story narrative here. Yeah. And can you imagine how scary that is to think of living and being in a place where there’s no rest? Oh my, yeah. I mean, we live in a world that doesn’t necessarily value it, but most of us, when we lay down, we get to fall asleep. That is something we appreciate and when we don’t get that, it’s awful. Right. So, Brian, are you saying that for me, hitting snooze in the morning, I am just celebrating rest and this would be wonderful. Counselor, help me here. Yeah. Well, this would be because sometimes pulling myself out of that rest is indeed a chore.

Well, I hate to say it, I’m not sure that’s exactly what we’re talking about here, Matt. Oh. Rats. Yeah, exactly. But rest is a wonderful thing. And we do enjoy it when we’re in there and it’s good. Brian, does this quiet time need to be in solitude? What I mean by that is, do I have to be alone? Does it need to be quiet? Or can this quietness that we speak of happen in a very harried life with lots of tugs and pulls and crazy schedules. Sure. I think that’s a great question. In my mind when I think of quietness, the picture that comes to mind is not being in yourself in a dark room where there’s just total quietness like that. You could do quietness there.

Yeah. But I guess the picture that comes to mind for me is that quietness in the midst of a very loud and busy world. So, while you’re walking around the aisles of Walmart, what does quietness in your own mind look like? Or as you’re driving the kids to soccer practice and there’s screaming in the background. What is quietness in your mind? Or you’re scurrying across the college campus trying to get to your class that starts in three minutes when you’ve got a five-minute walk.

You know, I think quietness in that is really very real and probably even bigger than what this is going to look like than locking yourself in a room that’s dark and quiet. Right. So, what I would say is just to figure out where do you want your mind to be focused in those moments? And just trying to be purposeful in that. And so that really speaks to having a lens of the gospel where we might see this world as God sees this world. And that’s helpful. God, give me those eyes. Help me think your thoughts after you. Yes. Yeah, and I think that’s the picture of quietness.

I guess when I think of just that our minds become more conformed to the way the Lord would see the world around us, the way the Lord would think about those things rather than our human perspective that is just focused on running from this task to that task. Just seeing all that through a different lens, that quiets our spirit internally, because we’re trusting in God. If that all connects, it sure does, and that’s what the Scripture says, be still and know.

Right. Yeah. So, the outgrowth of that being still is knowing that he is God. And we have Scripture that also says, wait on the Lord. Yeah. And I think that is also speaking to this as well, right? Yes, I think you’re exactly right. Those are the fundamental underpinnings that quietness directs us back to and leads us to quietness and those are great things.

Sometimes I’ll picture myself in God’s throne room. God is there, and lots of other people are there as well. And we understand quietness when we’re waiting in the doctor’s office. We’re waiting our turn, right? We’re not going to go in front of somebody else. We sit quietly.

When I’m at the front of any line, I don’t see quietness. Right. It’s me asserting myself. And sometimes when I go before God, I think I have this view that I’m in the front of the line. You know what I mean? And it’s helpful for me to picture God’s throne room with so many that I’m just going to be here because God’s time is what’s most important, not my time. And it allows me to settle into quietness. Yeah. And to hold my tongue and to be present. Yeah. And that’s the most important thing at that point. Be present. Yeah. Not be noisy.

As I hear you saying that I think what comes to mind is it’s a great way to remind us that our time and we are not nearly as important as what we feel in the moment. You know? And what a great way to retrain our minds to that reality. And I think really part of the challenge that we have as people is just this element of time. Right. Quietness concept, I’m all for it. Quietness in time, maybe not so much. Yeah. And so, this time presses in on us and makes it difficult. I love that in Christ’s life. Look at Christ’s life in light of time and the man doesn’t seem like he’s a slave to it at all.

Yeah. Was he? No, I mean, it’s amazing, as you see him walking and something comes up and he goes on a complete detour. It looks like when it seems to me that he’s got an appointment over here to make, he should be hustling, moving on but he is not moving on. He moves on when maybe he shouldn’t be moving on according to our calibration. Right. And I think I would just say with that, I’ve seen people take that to an extreme too, where they try to not be ruled by the calendar, which is a good thing, but then it leads to neglecting a lot of their responsibility.

So, I don’t know. I don’t think we should be under the impression that we will be able to do that the way Christ did. Right. But you’re exactly right. To see him walk through the gospels, it’s amazing. He had three years to save the world and had all the time at his disposal, right? Yeah. And I’ve got 35 or 40 years in my career, and I don’t have time to carve out any quiet time.

Yeah. And, so the reality is, I think you and I would both admit, this is hard. And if somebody’s listening and they’re thinking about trying to do this, that it will be very easy just to say, oh, that’s probably good for somebody.

Or, you know what? That probably will be a good thing to do next year sometime. Exactly. Sometime. I guess what I would just encourage that person with is, why not start, and we’re not asking you to do anything new or different. We’re just asking you to try to do something with quietness.

So, for example, the next time you drive somewhere to just take five minutes of that, to try to do that with quietness. What would it look like to do that with the Lord being right next to you? How would that change your thoughts? How would that affect you. And would that be a way to try to do quietness, just to start with? It was just for our listeners to know that our counselors have a great deal of credentials in teaching us how to be quiet because you know how to be quiet when you’re talking to people. See, right now Brian could out stare me, everybody. He could look at me and just wait and I’ll fill the time because I get antsy.

Yeah. But you counselors, I think it’s actually fantastic, and I use that tongue in cheek, and to be kind of clever, but there is some truth to that you have learned in your practice to be quiet. And to be okay with silence and knowing that silence bears fruit.

Yeah. And the rest of us haven’t learned that. Yeah. I think even as counselors, that’s a discipline you try to grow, that you try to get more comfortable with quietness. Because I think in my mind, those quiet moments might be the most powerful moments in a counseling session where the Lord is speaking something into my mind that I want to relay or is speaking something into the client’s mind that I want to take root and I don’t want to get in the way of that. Or I give them enough space so that can happen.

Quietness is big and you’ve said a lot there by saying that in quietness there’s a lot of gain in just allowing God to work on us. Yeah. Yep. Brian, I think this has been a fascinating conversation.

I trust that it’s been helpful to our listeners and that it’s been encouraging and you have been able to identify with this topic in some form. I’ve been really encouraged as we talk about quietness and we talk about rest and we see that it is cradled in an understanding of faith and understanding that God has done everything important that needs to be done and he invites us into that rest, and that rest is an act of faith. And so, we’re encouraged to join him in that rest. Yeah, I think that’s a picture of being still and in being still, it allows us to know that he is God and in knowing that he is God, it allows us to be still and just that beautiful back and forth picture.

A wonderful cycle. Yeah, that’s really great. So, we just trust that this has been a blessing to our listeners as much as it’s been to us in this conversation and that we might endeavor to be quiet and rest in the Lord.