Relational Wounds: A Block to Marital Intimacy Podcast Episode

Welcome, everyone, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent to have you along, as always. Matt Kaufman is my name. Kaleb Beyer is with me here. It’s good to be with you, Matt. I’m really thrilled to discuss, as often as our topic, relationships. 

And the marital relationship. And I know our listeners have a lot of vested interest in marriage and in relationships. And so just to set up today’s topic and then let’s get right into it. Vulnerability is important. Marriage is a vulnerability. I think intimacy has sometimes been spelled out as into me you see, which is a really great way to think of intimacy. 

And when it comes to relationships, few, maybe none are as intimate as a marital relationship. But in your experience and working with couples, there can be blocks to vulnerability. Is that a fair way to set up a conversation? Yes, I think so. Because I think all couples desire a deeper connection and intimacy and are longing for that, whether they know how to get it or what that looks like. But I would say all of us have a God given longing, whether we’re married or not, to be seen, loved, and valued. 

And so, when that is not taking place in a relationship, and when blocks come up to prevent that from happening and oftentimes when they come, they’re seeking that which is very painful. Yes. Difficult. Probably a spectrum from irritant to downright painful. Yeah, in one of the things, maybe Matt just to back up and say, at times these hurts or blocks can come at points of transition. 

So, in a relationship, we would say attachment needs. So, the need to belong to feel connected to be comforted. Those are heightened through major transitions in life. So, think of having a child. So, if we’re thinking of a married couple, obviously, you know, transitioning to marriage, but also having a child or a job loss or infertility, those are transitional points where the needs for connection, attachment, comfort are heightened and are really ripe. And so consequently, it’s also an opportunity for injury to occur or hurt to occur during those times when those needs aren’t met. Okay. So, we’re talking about these very vulnerable moments in a couple’s life and that these are heightened moments with certain needs and then that makes certain vulnerabilities real. 

Yes. So, there’s an increased need in that moment of having the spouse come and comfort and soothe or remind them, hey, I’m with you through this difficult time or that sort of thing. So, what I find at times is when couples come in and want to deepen intimacy present day in their marriage relationship, what can pop up is a past relational injury. Sometimes this can be surprising to couples. Sometimes this can be, oh, we knew that was there, but we didn’t necessarily connect it to how it impacted us present day and how does that surface? 

Yeah, how do you get a sense that? Oh, there’s something, there’s a hurt in the past. Yes, so that happens when couples begin to turn towards each other and begin to share deep fears and longings. I want you to think of an example. I don’t know if in school you ever had, I’m sure you did, fire training where the firefighter, someone from the fire department, would come in and they would talk about the fire and what you’re supposed to do exactly. 

So, one of the things they would say is, if you go to a door and you touch the door and it’s hot, what do you do? Don’t open it. I do not open it. You know what? I was going to get there. Kaleb, it’s been a long time since I had that training, and I didn’t want to go on record with the wrong response. 

That’s right. Don’t open it. Yeah. I think I insisted on feeling it with the back of my hand though. That did come to me. Am I right? That’s good, especially metal doors. Yeah. Okay. Don’t open it because the fire is outside. So why don’t you open it? Well, if you open it, oxygen rushes in and that fire explodes inward. 

So, the same is true when we think of injuries, or some people refer to them as raw spots in our lives. When I ask a husband to turn to the wife and begin to share some vulnerability. Okay. Well, when you open up that vulnerability, guess what comes rushing to the forefront? Okay. Times when I’ve expressed the vulnerability and it hasn’t gone well it’s led to further disconnection, pain, injury, and that kind of rushes to the forefront, so to speak. 

And you slam the door shut. And so that’s then the block to further deepening intimacy, connection, and closeness in the relationship. So, we know we need to open doors between one another, but it just hurts so badly that we’ve learned not to. Right. Vulnerability is something we want but the threshold that we need to cross sometimes is hard. 

Yeah. Okay, take us back to that moment when you’ve mentioned sometimes couples know of this. Sometimes they’re unaware of this. Would you say many don’t recognize that this is going to be part of that journey? Yeah, to the level that it is, I think that’s accurate, Matt. I mean, I think some would say, oh, I realized the injury is there and it’s impacted us in some way, but maybe not aware to the level it’s impacted until we step into vulnerability at a deep level again. 

Can we go to an example? I think an example would help flesh out what this looks like. Yep. And so, I can share an example from our relationship and how Ange and I walked through this. And she is aware that I am talking about this and sharing it. It’s a situation that we walked through that manifests itself years and years later. 

So, as you know, Matt, we transitioned to grad school a number of years ago, but it was 10 years after we were married. So, 10 years into our relationship we felt called to transition. I was in grad school for two and a half years and then we moved out here to Illinois to start a job with ACCFS. 

During that time, I was fairly consumed with grad school and clinicals. And so, during that time, we also transitioned to Manhattan, Kansas, which is about 90 miles from where we had lived, which is Sabetha. When we first moved there, our youngest was a month old, and then we had four kids with the oldest around five or six years old. 

And so, the needs around home were high. I was consumed with grad school and Ange was often on her own. So, you see the setup already. And this is a vulnerable time, or this is at a high needs time because of the transition that you mentioned. Right. Which means attachment is at a crisis right now. 

So, providing Ange and the kids a sense of security, safety, trust, all of those things are on the table. Yeah. Yes, so we were aware of the stress that had on a relationship and us individually. But fast forward and we would say we had a good relationship, and we do have a good relationship. We come out here to Illinois and are able to spend some years re-grounding through that time. 

And then we were called to the ministry. What came up for Ange in processing through and thinking about the transition was the experience back here in grad school where she had experienced being on her own, right? Some attachment needs not being met by me, but also looking into the future and saying, oh, here we go again. Yeah. This is going to be the second verse to the same song. And so that was again, something that just popped up in the present day that connected to a past injury in the relationship.  

So, let’s go to the situation of your calling to the ministry or whatever, and you’re like, okay, let’s do this well, let’s open this door and talk about safety and security and all of that. In comes rushing the past to use that analogy of the fire, right? Yeah. And so, what you thought maybe you were engaging in a present moment, you were actually engaging in a very past moment. Yes, certainly the present moment was influenced and the emotion we were processing in the present was connected with that past painful experience. 

Would you say the aha for a lot of couples is they don’t recognize that though they are living life in the moment, the past is very much a player presently? Yes. Because I think it can be disorienting when strong emotion comes out in the present that seems out of proportion to what I might expect. That doesn’t seem reasonable. Yeah. And so that’s an indicator that, oh, there may be something else here. Now, you may have experienced the same stress that Ange did back in Manhattan. But perhaps you didn’t. Perhaps you had a different read of that past experience. Is that also part of what’s confusing when a husband and a wife didn’t have the same experience in the past? Yes, that’s what’s confusing because we had two different kinds of perspectives. There was awareness of each other and what each other was going through, but you have your own story that you write in those experiences. 

And I think one of the really important things is to understand what it was like for the other to walk through that. So, in our situation, for me to understand what that was like for Ange. But I think what was challenging for her is she knew I loved her, and she would have said, and she does say, I believe, that I’m an okay husband, I think, Matt. 

But I think what’s challenging with that is, it doesn’t change what’s really hard is how do I both experience and feel these deep hurts while also know why we’re doing this and why we’re here, but there’s still a pain point around emotion that she’s having. 

So, I’ve got a couple of questions. I’m interested then is part of the way moving forward dealing with the past hurt? I want to come back to that. But more immediately, how well do people connect their present reaction to a past situation? Like, is that an automatic thing? Do you find that couples get there quickly? Do you find that one gets there, and the other doesn’t? I’m just saying, I think it was pretty intuitive or insightful for Ange to say, boy, this sure smells like the past and was able to place her finger on it and you could, with a great deal of health, go back to that Manhattan moment. 

You know what I’m saying? Yeah. But where it’s ambiguous, I’m just curious how clear it is. Yeah, if we’re so caught up in the present drama that we just want that to end, then I don’t know that we’re necessarily going to be able to reflect back and identify what is feeding it. 

Because there has to be a level of safety presently to begin to reflect and process and be like, there’s something else going on here. Right. There is something more to this than just the conversation we’re having about the ministry or about whatever that is in a couple’s life or transition. 

And so, I think two things with that question is the level of safety presently emotional safety, because if there’s not a lot of emotional safety and there’s just escalation and withdraw on the relationship, it’s really hard to begin to reflect on what else is going on? 

And the second thing I think is self-awareness individually to be able to slow down because that goes deeper into what we say more vulnerable primary emotions versus the secondary reactive frustration, irritation, anger. Right. I need to go deeper to be able to connect to the past. 

Yeah. And as you explain all that, too, it does require a person sometimes when we’re hasty to keep moving forward, it’s pretty hard to go backwards. Yeah. I would imagine that would play on different temperaments. Some people tend to move forward with what is in the past and others hang on to the past. 

So, I’m curious about that dynamic. Yeah. It is a challenge from the standpoint of someone is very much like, hey, let’s move on, it wasn’t that big a deal. Is it helpful? Yeah, because I think we have two ditches, right? We can dig into the past so much that we find things but the flip side of it is we can also just ignore and be dismissive that somehow the past has shaped and influenced us and neither ditch is right.  

I appreciate you highlighting those two ditches, because I think you’re absolutely right. Well, and I think in this situation, one of the things that’s tricky and hard is to have the conversation presently about the past can feel very blaming about the one who injured their spouse. And so having it in a way that’s inviting in this case and inviting me into her vulnerability so she can be more vulnerable with me. Yeah, and me hearing it as that longing rather than as blame, condemning, exactly. And that’s important. So, do we need to separate some things too? Do we need to separate forgiveness from healing, for example. 

Yes, so for a spouse to say, listen honey, this is completely forgiven, I’m not talking about you and me not being in a good place because of this, but something still needs to be healed. Yes, that is a critical point, Matt. And, you know, I think of that even in the Gospels with Jesus. So, when Peter betrayed Jesus, and you know the story after Jesus resurrection, he’s on the shore and Peter sees him, he jumps out of the boat, he comes up and Jesus is engaging him there and he’s like, Peter, do you love me? 

And Peter’s like, yes, three times, and Jesus had forgiven him. Yeah. But I believe he wanted to repair that relationship so that as Peter continued to minister, he knew there was a repair there that we’re okay. You know what I’m saying? It’s a great example. Jesus went backwards before going forward. Yeah, so my second question then was this idea of healing hurt. Did you need to go back to that Manhattan moment and say okay, we need to do some healing back here so that we can live well with what’s being placed in front of us now? Yeah, that’s true. So, in that situation, what happened? 

Well, Ange needed to know that I understood her attachment needs that weren’t met and that I can meet them presently. So, one, that they’re valid and it makes sense she felt the way that she did so that I can be present with that today as she’s sharing it with me and that brings healing and repair. But then she also needed to hear from me what it was like for me to be there, not to excuse or justify, but so that I also know that she understands what it was like for me as well. So, there is a both-and there. Yeah. Does that make sense?  

Yeah, it does. Right. And so, as you help couples with that healing, once the matter is identified does that healing then circle very close to attachment? That’s what I hear when you say that you go to the ideals of attachment because that’s probably where the wound is. And again, attachment is that safety, security, trust, those core matters. Yes, correct. Yeah, it is. Because when we think about moving into vulnerability, it’s two sides of one coin. One side is the longing to belong, to be seen, to matter, to know that you care about me, but the flip side is fear. The fear that I’m not going to be good enough, the fear that I don’t matter to you, you are going to leave me. And so, one of the things that brings healing is for individuals to be able to both communicate about their fears, and for them to be seen and heard, and communicate about their longings. 

Did I answer your question? You did. So now I hear you raise fear. So, that seems to be another pretty important word that helps bring these matters to the surface. So that would be a good question to ask. What fears did you have then? What fears do you have now? Is that what would start to get to the core of the matter? 

Certainly, I think, Matt those are places that we don’t just go directly to. But that’s the place that we need to get to. And that is being able to identify, label, and express that vulnerable fear. Or sometimes it’s sadness, right? Sometimes it is hurt. 

But to be able to identify and express, oh, this is at the root of what was happening there. And you say, don’t go directly there because it’s too vulnerable and you might get shut down. Yes, maybe you wouldn’t get access quickly. Yes, access both me to be able to access it myself individually and sit with that fear. 

If you think about the last time you were afraid, but then we’re talking about attachments fears, which can increase that intensity by quite a bit. Just sitting with fear itself is really hard and painful and difficult. But then let alone turning towards your spouse and sharing that and wondering how they are going to respond to this. 

Are they going to minimize, dismiss, think I’m crazy? All of those things certainly come to our mind when we get to the place of deep vulnerability. That makes sense because fears can be hard to hear. Yeah, for sure. You’re absolutely correct, Matt, in that the challenging part relationally is to be able to acknowledge this as a fear. So, in my situation, I can say, what do you mean? 

You don’t matter to me, or I don’t care about you, or we can kind of logically answer that question. This isn’t about logic. This is about them knowing. Oh, yeah, that obviously was really scary, really hard. It’s about soothing the fear. It’s not about answering the question, right? It’s about providing soothing and relief that I see how you could feel that. 

Yeah. That’s really helpful. So, the objective or your hope is to soothe fear. I’m interested now in, you mentioned fear, sadness, and hurt. Okay, let’s go to sadness and hurt then. Soothe the fear, what the sadness, what the hurt? Yeah, well if you think about sadness, what it provokes is comfort, right? 

Comfort the sadness. Yeah, for sure. As you see someone crying, what do you want to do? You want to comfort them. You want to move towards them. So, if Ange were to start crying about the Manhattan moment, poo pooing that would be the wrong thing to do. That’s the wrong thing to do. Yeah. But even so to join her in that sadness would not stop the sadness. 

No, actually it is to comfort it in the present because I can’t change history. Yeah. But I can change the way I move towards her in the present. Right. For sure. Which is going to speak volumes about the present moment and whether you’re suitable as a couple to step into whatever you need to step into in light of that history. 

Yeah. So, comfort the sadness, soothe the fear, what the hurt. Yeah, it kind of depends on what the hurt is, Matt. But certainly, there’s a level of comfort, there’s a level of acceptance and receiving that and letting the individual, in this case, letting Ange know that you do matter to me, and you are important to me. 

I’m kind of fascinated by this idea that these moments, I’m going to call them tender moments or moments of crisis. In the sense that this moment is important at transition. That’s good. That’s your example. Is that helpful? Does that give us a key as couples as we move through transition to be thoughtful about past transitions? 

Is that a go to thing? Is that something that you ask in the room, in your counseling room, for example? What are some of the transitions you’ve been through and let’s talk about them. Is that where you start this hunt? Yeah, certainly, through assessment, that’s something that is helpful to identify whether it’s transition to marriage, transition to parenthood, looking at transitional points. 

How did those transitions go? What was that like for each of you? What do you remember about that time? How did it impact your relationship? So certainly, those are points to be curious about and want to know more about. And that’s also something that couples can do now. 

Yeah. I mean, that’s an absolutely great activity, whether you’re going through a transition or not. Yes. And to know that, oh, we have a transition coming up. And so that means we need to be more aware that actually our needs may be heightened through this. But I don’t want to just limit this to transitions, even though that can be a common one. 

Certainly, we think of times when betrayal happens. That’s not in a transition an isolated transition or, you know, a loss that’s unexpected or infertility. Those are points at which obviously we would say that this isn’t normative transition as much as it’s something that came up, that created an injury or a fragmentation in the relationship. 

That’s, I think that’s really helpful. And even in those examples, there’s a pre and a post though. Yes, similar to a transition. There’s a pre transition, post transition. Before this was a reality and now after it was a reality, in that sense, it’s still a marker on the timeline of the marriage. 

And I think you’ve given us some good words to think about, right? Fears. What are you afraid of? What are you sad about? What has caused you hurt? You know, and for both spouses, to be really honest, there’s got to be a lot of hope Kaleb on marriages doing this work in time rather than always going back and fixing things. 

Right. Yeah. That would be life. So, there is a lesson to be learned, even in this conversation. That’s not always going back to the past but doing present well. Yeah. And thanks, each one, for being on. I think you were probably stimulated as I was as we think about relationships as we think about the complexity, Kaleb, of the human being. 

Yeah. And we’re complex individually, ultra complex together, aren’t we? And so that does cause for some, I think, thoughtful contemplation, thoughtful about some of the things and the matters we’ve talked about here today. So, thanks for that. Thanks, each one for being on.