Honoring Grace Podcast Episode

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. It’s excellent as always to have you along. We’re going to hear a story today. Stories have a way of bringing together emotion and facts and content and lesson. Sometimes story has a way of skipping our brain and going right to the heart. 

And I think our listeners are going to be blessed by that story. Mark and Marti Teubel are here. Thanks both of you for coming in. Thanks for having us. Thank you. And they’re going to share a testimony. And I’m honored to be in the same room where it happens. For a very long time, you have carried a personal story. 

You’ve carried it between the two of you and with God. Decades ago, you confessed it and found forgiveness, confessed it to an elder and found forgiveness, but that didn’t make the story not present in your today. And over time, you’ve had a desire to bring that story forward in a way of healing, not only for yourselves, but for others. 

I’d like you to answer this question right as we get started. One is, what is the secret? And number two, what is your hope in sharing it? Well, a number of years ago when we were in high school, Marti and I were dating, and she became pregnant. We had an abortion, so as hard as that is to say, there’s yet freedom to share that and this experience, I think, going forward. 

Thanks for sharing that. How long ago? Right around 30, I have to ask Marti, but I’m thinking. March 1986. Yes. So it’s been, how long, 38 years ago, yeah. Marti, it’s not abstract for you. No. March of 86. Yes. When dates stick with us for that long, they’re not abstract, but they’re very real. Very. What would your hope be? 

To help people find healing. I thought I was okay. I managed, we managed, we went to great lengths to lock this up and keep it in that vault. And as time has marched on, God just keeps pushing us towards opening those doors and our hope is to help someone who has felt the same way we have. Because there’s been much healing in a short time since we’ve exposed our secret and shared it with several people now. Including our children. Our children. Yeah. What was the impetus that was like, we need to be open about this even though it has been dealt with at the cross, but we need to deal with it further. 

What was the impetus? Do you mind sharing that? Well, it was mostly for me. I was involved in a prison ministry, I still am, and I came face to face with a young lady who was in Tazewell County Jail in Pekin with murder charges, and we had a conversation at a table, and I looked her in the eye, and I told her that God can forgive anything. 

And she said, oh, but you don’t know what I’ve done. And I said, oh, but you don’t know what I’ve done. And she was the first person I shared that with. In the law of our land’s eyes, it was not murder, but in God’s eyes, it was. And it sparked a conversation, a connection, it took me on a path I didn’t really want to go on. 

I was going to leave it there, but I told Mark what had happened, and God just keeps unraveling the story. And you talked about a story like he’s still writing this story and we’re just more open to be used instead of afraid. Did it surprise you in that moment that you would share that with her? Yes. It was a Holy Spirit thing. 

And then yet, it was safe. She was in prison. She couldn’t tell anybody. She didn’t know me. But when it came to telling people that knew me, or thought they knew me. That was hard. Telling our children, that was hard. There was a lot of freedom in telling them though, because we had gone through life with them not knowing that secret and, and just being open about, they knew most of our past, but they didn’t know that part of it. 

And that was very freeing to be able to speak to them. And they took it extremely well and graciously. A few of them struggled a few weeks with it, but yet then, through God’s mercy and they understood the situation we were in, not that it was an acceptable thing that we did, but it was something that was, they understood maybe out of the fear we had and being unbelievers at the time, even knowing though that it was truly murder and the wrong thing to do. 

It was tough, but yet they took it well. Would you take us back those 30 years? What was life like? What was on your mind? Marti and I met in seventh grade and dated, if you so call it, dated then, I guess. Went to some dances and so forth and through high school, we dated different times pretty seriously. 

When she became pregnant, it was extremely frightening. I was extremely really lost. I mean, I didn’t know what to do other than I wanted to hide. No one knew our secret, but her and I, and find a way to deal with the sin the best I could as an unconverted person. And that was hard through the years to know that. 

We tried to erase that experience, that life, that we never talked about it very, very rarely. Did we ever bring up anything about that abortion? I think that’s what makes our situation more challenging. The few women that I’ve talked to that have been through this, it was a strange relationship or not a long lasting one. 

Well, we ended up getting married and we had a family and it’s unique that we went through this together and yet we went through it very separately and yet we both chose to let shame trump truth and right. Right. And everything. And you talk about that time. It was just, we were reckless. We were selfish. 

We were sinful. We were caught up in a lifestyle that all of our friends were in. We were partaking in alcohol and just doing things that we didn’t want anyone to know about. Right. Our parents, for sure, and his even more so. He went to church every Sunday, I did not. So, I’m sure my response was not even quite as hard as yours was with your parents. 

My parents knew what it was like. They had an unwanted pregnancy and got married, so they would have understood, but Mark never felt like his parents could know. Did you both agree together in that moment? We did. Yeah. There was a part of me that maybe, now that I’ve been forced to think about it, hoped he would have said, oh no, I’ll marry you. 

I’ll take care of you. I love you. But me telling him we can’t have this baby, he was relieved, I feel. Yeah, I was just so much fear and, yeah, I was so scared, just not knowing what to do, who to go to. I did not feel that, I mean, I look back on it. I know my parents would have accepted, you know, option B, right? 

And getting married and having a child at 17 and we were juniors in high school. I know they would have accepted that. It would have been hard, but they would have, but at that point, I was just so scared of having them know of disappointment, of letting them down, of them knowing that I was having sex with a minor, I mean, both of us were under 18 and someone that I had dated for quite some time, right? 

And so, they knew you very well. And then when we ended up getting married, I mean, it was. You know, Marti was taken into our family just like any other person was, and we ended up repenting about three years after we were married. You speak about the aloneness. You made the decision between the two of you. 

Nobody knew? My friends. We had a few friends. I had some girlfriends that sadly were in the same situation prior to me. Took me to get my pregnancy test, they walked through, so I had about six of my friends, I don’t know. Did you ever tell any of your friends? I don’t know. I had a sibling that was aware, and a few of my friends were aware, but that was about it. 

But that sibling was not converted either, and yeah, very few people. So, I felt alone in my family and in my relationship with those that could support me, but the support I had was from girls that had been in the same situation. So, comfort in that, I don’t know if that’s the right word, but less judgment for sure. 

Understanding. And I think that’s where I’m coming from now. One in four women in America have an abortion wounded heart. And I can’t see that in the apostolic world. But if it’s true, I’m sure there’s someone else besides me. And it’s a very lonely place when you feel like you are the only one that has had that in your past, and I just don’t want them to feel alone anymore. 

You mentioned wounded. Yeah. All wounds are unique. Yes. And so, I would have to believe that, as you termed it, the abortion wound is extremely unique. Can you place your finger on the uniqueness of the abortion wound? For me, it’s self-inflicted. I chose it. And then grieving children, miscarriage, all those other things, they feel not permissible. 

Say more about that. What’s not permissible? To mourn and grieve because there’s this reminder of what you had done. So, you disregarded that life. I’ve struggled with retribution through the years, thinking some of the things in our marriage with our children and our stillborn son, Ethan, our several miscarriages, they felt like retribution, even though I knew it was not true, but then very lonely to talk about that feeling because no one knew. 

So even our oldest son was born with a cleft lip and palate, and so when he was born, that was another reminder of look what you did. Soon after that, we were converted. And I think that’s when it hit home the most for me was seeing that, holding that baby, seeing his challenges, and then in the back of your mind, you had that elephant sitting over here. 

It’s like, yeah, but you murdered one of my own. Part of the abortion wound is a grief that impacts other griefs. Yeah. So, an open wound that impacts your other wounds that are not able to heal. Am I understanding that right? Absolutely. So, we see the impact, the reverberation of that. That you felt like, I cannot grieve this stillborn. 

And then I also in that grief was the one beautiful experience that I had with the Lord pushing me. You know, he’s always been navigating this story, but he reminded me that Ethan was not because of sin and he gave me John 9 Where the blind man was asked, you know, whose fault is this that this man was born blind. No, it was for God’s glory? 

And it’s like we’re finally ready to let Grace’s life bring God glory, however that looks, and grieve her, and it’s really, I mean I’m crying, I’m, my voice is shaking, but I’m so filled with gratitude that we can finally talk about her. She deserves it. So, she was a girl, you named her Grace. Yes. When did you name her? 

In October of 22. So, the 50 something year old me named her Grace. The 17-year-old in me would have named her Nicole. So, she is Grace Nicole. So, the old and the young, we kind of had a fun little talk about that. It was part of one of my healing journeys. They do a beautiful ceremony, and they encourage you to name your child and make a birth certificate and it was a powerful exercise I thought was really stupid and I loved every part of it. 

Yeah, it’s been a really powerful thing to give her a name and give her a voice. So, we are pretty sure she was a girl because as Marti compared the other pregnancies to how she felt, we only had one other girl and how sick she was with Sadie, so she thinks that that was probably a girl as well. Say a little bit about the retreat you’ve referenced. Yes. Some of that work. That was part of my healing. After saying this out loud, I went to a couple of different retreats, a Haven retreat that our church puts on. Fabulous. Everyone should go. I went to that. And from that retreat, I was given resources to deeper still, which is an abortion specific retreat for those men and women. 

And I went to that in April of 22 and it was life changing. What prompted your need? Just finally being vulnerable and saying it out loud, telling people at the Apostolic Christian retreat, there were women there that knew me and they were so loving and reacted totally opposite to what I thought. And they were like, you need to get help. 

It’s okay to need help. And so, I knew it would take us on a path. And I was afraid, but I’m glad. He supported me so much. I don’t know really exactly a pinpoint prompt, just God. Mark, I’m assuming that your needs were different than Marti’s needs. What did that look like, seeing her move forward with the needs that she had? 

You know, first off, it was really moving when she came home from the jail ministry and told me the experience that she had with the girl that was in for murder, and how that conversation went. That was the starting point for where we’re at today. And it was really touching and moving to start that again. And it’s almost like we aren’t closing the door on this issue or situation or sin or whatever you want to call it. 

We aren’t closing the door. We have opened the doors is how I really feel about that. And it was just different because, you know, as a female, they experienced so much more emotions in the time way back when we made that decision. And then as childbirth through the years, those are totally different experiences for a male and a female. 

And I think it was there in my mind, especially as we had our stillborn Ethan, had a few miscarriages. We’re converted and knowing that after you see life and hold life and touch it, it’s like, there’s nothing greater than a child and holding a child and loving a child. And then to think, wow, Mark, you know, at one time you murdered a child and yes, I was forgiven, but it was just something we couldn’t talk about. 

So, we had different experiences and feelings. She had a lot more emotional feelings that I think that she needed to go through and have support with different ladies that were post abortion. And I would just say it was a totally different experience for me. But you saw, you perceived the need that Marti had. 

Yes. And that she needed help. Yes, definitely. I think more than anything it was, we need to be able to talk about it to help somebody. And if we can’t talk about it, we can’t help anybody. And my heart goes more to probably the promiscuous high school kid today, and her heart might go out to someone different, right? 

But that’s where my heart is, if I could just help one person by talking about our past and what we went through and the hurt it was and the valley that we went through because of what we did. That would be my goal. Two different people, two different experiences, even though we went through it together. He’s very factual, he’s very black and white, and I am very feely. 

So that was probably part of our story too. The fact in the box, and put the feeling in the box, never to bring out again, because the feeling was too painful. The fact was too shameful. Wow. I would have to believe that both of you have a unique and valuable perspective on those individuals who find themselves at a place where they feel like abortion is the only option. 

Would you take us back to March 1986 at that moment? What can we learn about what that day looked like for you? It was a very difficult day, but yes, I thought it was my only option. And I had help from my friends. They skipped school to take me. I went to great lengths to be anonymous and show up and just put it behind me. 

And I got in right away. They were cold. They were heartless. They were business. I laid on the table. I heard the roar of the machine, I felt the pain, I got out of there as soon as I could, I found myself out in the lobby, I could not sit in that building, I went out and sat in the parking lot on a curb stop and cried, and I knew I’d forever altered my life. 

All I wanted to do was forget about it, and that’s what I did. So, I know the desperation. I close my eyes and I can see it all still, Matt. Mark, what was that day like for you? Were you aware? I was very aware. I was extremely aware. So, we had planned to, even the financial piece of it, we had planned out to each pay for half of the procedure. 

I had gotten the cash out of my account. She didn’t have enough money, so she got the cash out of her mom’s account waiting for her paycheck to clear the following day and then had a plan to cover that up. I was such a coward. I didn’t even want to take her because I didn’t want to chance skipping school and having my parents find out that I skipped school and where did you go? So, I did not even go. I knew exactly what was happening. Not to the extent, of course, later. I mean, I didn’t know that much about what the procedure was going to be like at that age and time in my life, but I was such a coward that I didn’t want anyone or anything to come out about it that I stayed in school and waited till I saw her that afternoon or evening after school. 

Did you talk about the event with Mark when you met? He just asked how I was doing and if I was okay and I just said, yeah, it’s fine. I’m fine. Yeah, she really wanted to close the box. Yeah, I don’t think it really came back into our conversation until we started repenting. and confessed. 

After confession that night, I’ll never forget the freedom I had just knowing that is all gone from the East to the West. My sins are forgiven. I confessed. I was just a free man. And I mean, immediately when I walked out of that elder’s house, I was flying. I’ll never forget that feeling. 

And I know we had conversations after that, within a week or so after that in regard to confession and how we felt and so forth. But again, close that box back up. Well, for me, it was like, you don’t talk about those things. Before you went, he confessed separately. I’m like, is he going to tell, like, I remember that going through my mind. 

And then my elder is such a sweet man. Like I have to tell him this, how it’s always been for me. How will they look at me after this? And he just always looked at his hands and he was so gracious to me. And yeah. We, once again, okay, that door’s closed now too. We’re good. We’re free. But we really weren’t. 

Did you sense that same elation, though, that marked it after sharing? No, I did not. But I’m more of a feeler. He’s more factual. So yeah, it took me a while. I had to work through, I had to work through a lot of things. I wasn’t brought up in our Apostolic Christian Church. So, there are a lot of things that I was still figuring out, but over time, yeah, I’ve always known I was forgiven, Matt. I just didn’t know the depth of the wound and the fingers of it. Those of us who are believers, we have repented of our sin. We have confessed to the elder. We find forgiveness, truly. Yes. Isn’t that enough, I think is a question that’s on a lot of our hearts. 

And I know that you’re not suggesting that, okay, this means we need to air all of our grievances with everybody. That’s not what you’re suggesting. Absolutely not. But there’s a wounding that happens that goes with us. Is that what I hear you saying, Marti? Yes. Absolutely. Whether we know it or not. Whether you talk about it or not, whether you want it to be there or not, it’s just something that now that I’ve been on my healing journey, I want more women and men to have that. 

It’s like when you quit sugar and go back, you don’t know the effect. And that’s what’s been helping us to push through having this horribly humiliating despicable act. Yeah. We were forgiven, but the wound was still there. 

And I think this has brought healing to discuss, talk, share as needed with either those who have gone through it before, or something similar, or even in Mark’s desire for, I don’t want someone to get to that point. I would rather help prevent it. It’s not worth it. The healing also isn’t just for us. I see that it’s coming forth with our children. 

There’s been a depth of understanding. They’re parents now. A couple of them and our daughter soon to be and it’s opened up dialogue and things kind of make sense when they look back like, oh, you know, some women that are abortion wounded are very helicoptery and very protective and others, you know, there’s all these different ways it affects us. 

And I just wanted to be a good mom. I just wanted to be good because I was not that day, and my kids get it now. It’s been sweet to have that chapter opened and discussed. And I think it’s helping them as they move forward. That’s another thing, you know, having talks with your children, speaking about these tough topics that kids are going through. 

We dodged that bullet. I think that’s another reason why we kept the lid on it so long. Our kids converted at a very young age. They didn’t date. They didn’t get into the trouble we found ourselves in and praise God for that. But, you know, now we have grandchildren. We have kids in the church that we love. 

You know, it’s, it’s far reaching. It’s more than just Mark and I’s story. It’s impacted other lives. We just didn’t realize it. You’ve mentioned shame a couple of times. I think both of you have. Yeah. And you’ve mentioned a healing journey. How have you grown as a human being and the way that you understand who you are as a person, as a child of God? 

Shame does not own me. It owned me for a long time. Yeah. Not just about the abortion, lots of things in my life. So, I feel like It can look a lot of different ways, right? You know, yes, our specific story is about abortion, but abuse, things that have happened to you in your life, no fault of your own, all of those things can clothe us with these false thoughts of ourselves and I am stepping more into I am a child of the king. More than I ever have.  

Would both of you speak specifically to two people in the audience? We’ll take one at a time. First is that person who is very wounded. Forgiven. But wounded. And their wounds reverberate into their relationships. They know exactly what you’re saying in terms of fear and shame in the box. What words would you have for them?  

You have to talk to somebody. It could be a friend, a church elder, a minister, a counselor. You have to talk. I think that’s the most important piece of freedom that I’ve seen so far and give Grace the deserved attention that she should get we need to speak about her. The Lord loves light and bringing things to the light as intimidating as that is, it’s so much prettier. The light is so much prettier. You’re not alone. Satan wants us to feel like we’re alone. I was convinced that no one in my circle now would know or understand that 17-year-old girl’s decision. I have a dear, dear friend who could not have children. And to tell her how I disregarded the gift of life. It scared me to death that it would impact our friendship, but it’s deepened it. 

Yes. It’s scary. Yes. It’s embarrassing and shameful. And it’s a risk. This is a risk to say what we’ve done, but the reward? She deserves it. Grace deserves it. Yes, absolutely. So, yes. Have you felt God’s love through this whole matter? When you thought judgment and retribution, to use your words, Marti. Absolutely, absolutely. 

His mercy is unending. He’s not wanted me to walk this long. He’s not wanted us to walk this long. And yet, the waiting. He’s going to use that as well. So yes, God’s love and I feel it even more when I’ve shared now at a couple of different retreats, the love of his children that’s been poured on me when all I thought I would get is disdain and recoiling back, I’ve got hugs and love and prayers and it’s unimaginable what he has for us.  

Yeah, you’ve really answered, I think, the question I was going to have to you for the other second person in the audience, and that is that person who’s listening and who wants to learn and wants to be helpful and wants to be God’s hands and feet to those who share. And you’ve really answered that well, but I want you still to speak to them. Help us understand the role we play in healing the wounds of each other.  

Yeah. Just listening and hearing and formulating a response while you’re listening has been such a beautiful thing. I think the role is hard. We have biases, we have feelings and thoughts, but yet when we think about Jesus being Jesus. I’ve had so many women be Jesus. Just listening, I think, like you said, unbiased, not knowing what it’s like maybe to experience what you’re hearing, what they walk through, but just listening and having compassion, showing God’s love, being Jesus. 

Like you said, I think that’s the big part of it. Our kids definitely showed that. They have. We’re here with their support today because I did not want to come this morning. And it’s been such a gift to have their support. For decades, you’ve understood your family to be what it is and Grace was not a part of it. 

How do you envision your family today? We are closer because of her now. And in our family, it’s just complete now that that hole is filled because she has been given a place in our family. She is our firstborn. That takes a lot of pressure off our son. 

Yeah, I think how it changes our family going forward is now that we can talk and have spoken about Grace and they’re aware of her, it makes heaven even that much more real knowing that we have three living children here. Ethan was a stillborn that we were able to spend about an hour and a half holding after he was born deceased. 

And then those two miscarriages and Grace, you know, we have already have four waiting for us. And that really makes it a special place. Marti really likes to hold babies. I do. Yeah. I love it. Yeah. There will be a beautiful completion. Yes. Won’t there be? Yes. As we think about that eternal kingdom and resurrection, there has to be so much comfort in knowing that completion was made as real as it could possibly be on this side of resurrection. 

Absolutely. Absolutely. Life is way better when you don’t walk around with a mask on. And I feel like we’ve finally been able to take that off and this is us. This is us. Jesus was beautifully real all the time. All the time. He lived in a real world, real interactions, false and phony and fake and ignored were not a part of the way he did life. 

Marti, you opened with John 9 and the glory of God. You’ve seen that in the situation in Grace’s life, haven’t you? Grace has brought glory to God and will continue to. Yeah. Mark, you mentioned closing doors and opening doors. I really appreciate the powerful point that our sin is not just boxed up. Is it?  

Jesus opens and unlocks. This story for you has been an opening, hasn’t it? Most definitely, yeah, most definitely. It’s almost like his repentance evening, like, he’s having this and I’m having this, oh, but it feels scary. Oh, but it feels like I’m going to do it wrong. It’s so funny that we’re having this exact same experience, but in a different subject matter, he’s just like three inches taller. 

Well, I don’t know what that looks like in the future for us in our story. Yeah. But if God opens up a door, we’ll be willing to share in whatever way that is. Where before we had that box closed up so tight that we didn’t want to talk about it. We knew we were forgiven, but yet there was healing that was missing. 

Yeah. So, thanks for helping us. Thank you both for, for sharing just super honored to be here and to hear this from you and really, I trust that this conversation honors God, honors your story, and honors Grace Nicole. Yeah. What a beautiful thing. Yeah. God bless you. Thank you. 

Thank you. Thank you so much.