Four Negative Behaviors that Spell Trouble for Marriages Podcast Episode

The goal is dialogue without those behaviors taking over. And in order to have that, we need de-escalation. And de-escalation happens when we feel understood. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Wonderful to have you along. 

Kaleb Beyer is with me here in the room. I’m Matt Kaufman. Great to be here. It’s good to be here, Matt. Kaleb, everybody knows when you and I do this, we have relationships at the center of the conversation, marriage in particular. One concept that you have taught me that’s really been helpful is that conflict in marriage or relationships does not spell doom for a relationship. 

Not at all. Yeah. Right. In fact, sometimes conflict spells repair and healing and all kinds of things. Yes. But how we do conflict might very well spell doom. Yeah. Am I right about that? Yes, absolutely. It’s a very scriptural principle as well. Iron sharpens iron and there are differences that we walk through and it’s not the differences or the tension that’s the issue but how we do it. Yeah. How we engage each other. And I think we all lean forward then to like, okay, tell us more about that. Because I think we do have a radar up for conflict and even perhaps some of us recoil from it. Others maybe press into it. But today we’re going to highlight four negative behaviors that can, if we’re not careful, creep into our conflict and in fact, spell doom. Yeah. Absolutely. And the behaviors are in some ways, even as you’re talking about conflict, Matt, our strategies and ways that we engage in the midst of emotionally threatening situations or discomfort. 

So, we can find ourselves engaging in these ways. And some of these behaviors we would say we’ve all at some level engaged in, but when they become regular ingrained ways of relating and behaving in our marriage relationships or any relationship for that matter, it spells doom for the relationship. 

The researcher, John Gottman, who named these behaviors as the four horsemen of the apocalypse after Revelation 6. Wow. And that’s a bold statement, right? The apocalypse being the end. Yes. What John Gottman in his research found that with couples, when these behaviors were regularly present, it would predict the relationship doom up to 90 percent of the time. 

Well, a marital expert has placed his finger on four behaviors that wildly predict the relationship outcome. Yeah. Yeah. He narrowed it down pretty clearly. So yeah, he referred to them and he does refer to them as the four horsemen. And so, we often talk about this with couples or in relationships. And so just quickly, we’ll maybe go through at a high level and then we can drill down on these. 

But if you think about it, I’m sure you’ve heard of the whole idea of fight, flight or freeze. It’s the way that our nervous system engages or different movements or strategies that we can engage when we feel threatened. So, the first two horsemen, criticism and contempt, you can think of it as fighting. 

Okay, that’d be a strategy of an individual when they feel threatened. They tend to move towards and fight. Okay, this is more escalated. Whereas someone who tends to in some ways avoid or flee, that would be more of a strategy of defensiveness. That’s another horseman. So, we have criticism and contempt. 

And then defensiveness is more of that avoid or pull away. And then the final one is called stonewalling. And that’s when there’s just a freeze. That’s when someone just shuts down silent. Silent treatment. Okay. So, we have these two that are a bit offensive. 

One that is defensive and then one that is absent. And these four are negative behaviors that when present, and I really appreciated your introduction there you said, we’re going to connect with all of them. I know what all of those are and I know what they feel like, and I know how to engage them. 

But you’re saying when they are present in the marriage, what do you mean by that? That’s a good question. And we would say like criticism and defensiveness at times we all would engage in those. Now, with contempt and stonewalling, those usually come later. And as we walk into them, you’ll understand why they’re more intense. 

And actually, John Gottman would say, back to the statistics, that contempt is the number one predictor of divorce. When contempt shows up in the marriage relationship, he would say, that’s the number one indicator that this relationship’s headed for divorce. So, it’s very corrosive to the relationship. 

Okay. So, let’s take one at a time. Okay. Kaleb, explain what it is, what it is not, and let’s drill down. Yeah. So, criticism is attacking someone’s character. Labeling is often, when you always, you never show up, that’s a pretty good indicator that it’s a criticism, right? A critical statement. So, if a wife says to her husband, you know what? You never clean up around here. You are so lazy. That would be a criticism because we have the, you never, right. And labeling the husband as lazy. Okay. Yeah. And I would imagine these things can be so insidious that we really don’t recognize that we’re doing them. I would imagine some people could think, well, I’m providing some good feedback to my husband or wife and we don’t recognize it as criticism. 

So, I’m asking, is there another mode of feedback that’s not criticism and how would you help parse out the difference between healthy and unhealthy feedback and when do we get into that critical mode? Yes. So, a couple of things to that. I think Matt, one is, you wouldn’t just say when you’re calm, even as I say that now, you never helped with cleaning up around the house. You’re so lazy. It’s like, wow, when you’re calm and settled, you’d be like, I wouldn’t speak that way. Yeah. It’s very off putting. Exactly. But when you are frustrated, angry, there’s strong emotion. Now we’re moving to the place that something like that could be spoken, right? And so, the first thing I remember in these situations is they are emotionally threatening, or there are high emotions that are present and that leads to criticism. 

We would say underneath a critical statement is a need. The wife needs help around the house. That’s a good thing, right? Then an opportunity. So, we would say one of the things that he often talks about is an antidote. So, an antidote is something that you can engage instead of criticism, which is being able to share the positive need, which is I’m feeling overwhelmed, perhaps by all the things that have been going on. 

We had potluck last weekend and would you be willing to help me out tomorrow night? I know you’ve had a hard day or whatever, but now I’m feeling overwhelmed. An I statement and also communicating the need that the wife has in this case rather than saying it in a way that unintentionally leads to defensiveness on the part of the husband. Okay, so they’re going to interplay. Yes. These are going to interplay. Yes. Okay, say more about the I statement. I can get a feeling that there’s something loaded there. Yes. What do you mean by I statements? So, an I statement is, I feel overwhelmed when I see the house in disarray or a mess. 

And so, what you find is oftentimes a criticism is started with a you, yes, that usually isn’t endearing. You know immediately what happens when we hear you, Matt, our ears perk up and we’re already automatically on the defensive. Because that’s an offensive statement to hear you. 

And then that you statement does give rise to an identity statement. Like you are this type of husband, or you are this type, you’re the type of person that does this. And is that part of the offense of the criticism? Yes. It’s an attack, you know, on character. Right. Exactly. But when you say an I statement, then I think what it does rather than me criticizing you Matt, it requires me to slow down and connect with myself internally to understand what the need is here. 

Of course I’m irritated, but there’s a reason I’m irritated in this example that we’re using because I feel like I’m on my own here. There’s opportunity for that need to be responded to versus with the criticism and defensiveness. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. 

That I statement sends you down underneath the irritation, which is what we’re really responding to with a you statement. Yes, exactly. And I think it’s clearer as far as, oh, what your spouse can do to meet that need. Right. And then that’s helpful for that defense, because if we don’t necessarily provoke the heels of a defensiveness reaction, we’re out of the gates far better in this moment. 

Yes, absolutely. Should we go to defensiveness? Sure. Yeah, because they usually go together. If you think about it, it just intuitively makes sense that whenever criticism is present, defensiveness usually is present. So, defensiveness is a strategy that we talked about like to avoid or flee, so it doesn’t mean that they physically leave, but usually defensiveness is fairly explanatory and all of us get defensive at times for sure. 

That may mean we may respond with a counterattack. Well, you never do this, right? That would be defensiveness. Or it may be not saying anything necessarily. So, there are different ways that we can become defensive, but at its root, what defensiveness does is break down dialogue. And part of healthy relationships is about staying in dialogue so that we can understand each other and understand how to meet the needs of the other. Well, when defensiveness comes up, it’s essentially saying that it’s not my fault. You deal with it. I mean, we’re not saying that verbally, but essentially that’s what we’re communicating, you know, to our spouse in this sense in marriage. And so, so I’m guessing perhaps the antidote then would be something to, to step into conversation. 

Is that what the antidote would be? Yeah, the antidote is taking some responsibility. So, in the example that we gave, you know what, you’re right. I haven’t been helping out recently as much as I would like to help out. But what if, what if the person disagrees with that? What if the spouse is like, no, really, I have been. 

What would that look like? So let’s say, yeah, the husband in this case, again, that we’re using, that he would say, well, I have been helping out around the house. I think part of breaking down defensiveness is being able to get yourself to a place of receiving and accepting her reality for what it is. It doesn’t mean you agree with it, right? 

In some ways, it may be that you have been helping, but it is receiving the fact that. Okay. She’s irritated. And for one, most people don’t just enjoy being irritated, right? I mean, we don’t go around like, Oh, I just want to be a grouch today. And so there’s a reason behind that. And if I can receive that reality, that Oh, yeah, it makes sense that you’re, you know, frustrated when your perception is that I don’t help out around the house. 

So that person, instead of being defensive to lead in, at least mentally to say, I can understand dot, dot, dot. Yes. That is about understanding their reality and not having to prove your reality. Yes. And so you are seeking to understand theirs. And that doesn’t change that you feel like you have been helping out. 

But part of this is to be able to have dialogue. The goal is dialogue without those behaviors taking over. And in order to have that, we need de escalation and de escalation happens when we feel understood. So, oh, oh, wow, like you feel like that. I’ve been helping out, you know, around the house and well, yeah, I’d feel overwhelmed if I felt that way too. 

When you feel like you’re the only one looking out for yourself, that’s a lot to hand over in that moment. Like, yeah, you’re right, honey. It seems like it’s. Giving them all of the fuel, you know, like, and even more ammunition to use that, to use that language. So I can see why a person would really struggle with Really that antidote. 

Yeah. Does that make sense? Yeah. I can notice the anxiety increasing in me as you just talk about that, right? Like I’m, yeah, I’m like, you know, giving them more and creating a more of an environment that feels more unsafe. Now, the next time we step into this conversation, if I’m, if I’m getting, yeah, I think so. 

What you’re saying or even in the conversation that now you’re handing over the. keys, you know, and now they have more leverage in, in the matter that we’re talking about. Yeah. Yep. Part of the goal again, I think I’d go back to is dialogue. The goal is help me understand you, but so that I can also get to a place that I can communicate so that you can understand me. 

The goal is dialogue, not the place that says it’s only about the one who’s the critical spouse being understood, but also the defensive spouse needs to feel understood as well. But part of de escalation is getting to a place that we can have that dialogue. And if we’re able to seek understanding. And there’s a calming from the spouse who feels critical and a need is met, then we would say there’s calmer. 

Now, can I explain kind of what happened to me right in that moment? And so that we’re engaging, it’s not to say that defensiveness is responsible for all that happened with the critical spouse. So, yeah, I think that makes a lot of sense. What we do in that moment is we make the best possible environment for dialogue. 

possible, whereby both of us are going to be heard and understood. Yes. So, the answer is in the forthcoming dialogue. Yeah. Correct. So, we can see how criticism begets defensiveness, and defensiveness begets criticism. Correct. And so, if we’re not critical. Then we’re more apt to get a non defensive response. 

But you just gave us a key on how to diffuse the criticism if it does come. It’s not that we all have to do this perfectly. My aha is this is an on ramp to improvement by either one of us. Yes. Yes. Does that make sense? Yes, absolutely. There’s opportunity to be able to shift dialogue into a positive way for either spouse. 

Absolutely. And it almost doesn’t require total cooperation from either. Mm-Hmm. from both. Mm-Hmm. correct one. Yes. Yes. Which is, oh, Kaleb, this is huge . That’s right. 

So say more about contempt. So contempt usually shows up after criticisms become ingrained in the relationship. And so it happens over time and it’s almost a, a disgust or disdain towards a spouse or a, a one upping, you know, the spouse. And so it can happen through, it can happen through hostile humor. It can happen through calling people names, stupid jerk, you know, or making individuals a brunt of the joke. 

You know, tearing down at the very core, we would say someone who was created in God’s image and really communicating ways that degrades who they are. Whenever contempt shows up, there’s been an internal kind of dialogue going on in someone’s mind that’s negative towards their over time that ends up getting to a point that then there is a Ripe disdain in the relationship. 

Yeah, I mean it’s sobering. I don’t have words you can tell why it’s the number one predictor of divorce right because When it’s present, what’s the antidote to contempt? friendship, grace, gratitude. And so one of the things that John Gottman found is the five to one principle. So in relationships where there’s actively five positive interactions for every one negative interaction, then potentially creates an environment that’s a positive, warm, friendship filled environment where conflict can be present. 

Right. But it’s not an ongoing, ever kind of train of conflict. You know what I hear when you say that, five to one and otherwise, is you’re really saying a lot needs to be reprogrammed, a lot in the way that you relate to one another needs to be rewritten. Yeah. And that only comes with exercise and five inputs for every one withdrawal. 

Yes. Yes. It’s like changing the, the ongoing climate, not just the weather, but the ongoing climate of the relationship, which happens one day at a time. But certainly to shift that it’s more than just shifting one moment of changing criticism to stating a positive need. Now we’re changing a more systemic issue in the relationship. 

You mentioned friendship is the antidote. So friendship is at crisis when contempt is present. Is that true? Yeah, and really not there. If contempt’s there, because if you think about it, Matt, I can’t both be a friend with you and disdain you. So when disdain and contempt and that feeling of I’m better than you are, it’s really hard to actually feel warm feelings of connection and like we’re equals and, and I care about you. 

I care about you and I really enjoy being with you. When I disdain you. So the antidote to contempt is to really do the hard work of friendship. Yeah. And early on in the relationship, generally speaking, this isn’t always true, but generally speaking, that’s something that we, we pour into. Is that something you hearken back to then? 

Do you leverage that? Like, okay, let’s go back 40 years. Yes, or what does that look like now? How do we start stepping into friendship? What are the things you do enjoy doing together? How do we cultivate recreational intimacy, various areas that they can step in just having a good time together? and enjoying each other’s presence. 

Now that doesn’t happen overnight, Matt. Yeah. It begins by, you know what, having a not so bad time to get to a place that then now we’re starting able to enjoy each other. I’m so glad you were really real with that. Have a not so bad time. No, that’s good. Because I think becoming friends with somebody you’re not a friend with is hard work. 

It is. And it’s painful because you know that is a longing and a desire and a good longing and desire. And so I think that’s what hurts and so hard for couples that find themselves in this place is it didn’t happen overnight. And so I think with that, Matt, it’s like, yeah, we have to remember that this does take time. 

We have to have realistic expectations for that process. And know that it can happen, but it’s not like the first time we put a date night on the calendar, we’re going to go out and this is going to be the best time ever. Actually, it might be. Sometimes it gets worse before it gets better. But you’ve seen couples very cool on friendship. 

You have seen that friendship warm. Mm hmm. Yes, assuming both spouses are Facing in. Exactly. Yes. What if one’s facing out? Well, that’s a, that’s a different story. It doesn’t mean that we can’t change the environment of the relationship, that one can change. But if the one facing out has contempt. At that point, one spouse cannot change the other spouse. 

They can create boundaries and, and realistic expectations and grieve. And there’s certain things that can happen that can create an environment where they can live. But as far as the relationship, we would say that in some sense with contempt present. And again, I would say this borderlines on abuse because oftentimes this is wrapped in abuse and now we’re, we’re stepping into a different area that we would say that this is no longer a safe marriage relationship, but when abuse is present, It’s the hardness of one individual that needs to take responsibility in order to shift the marriage relationship. 

Okay, that’s helpful. So growing in these areas of these four negative behaviors and growing more healthy does require a both facing in mindset. So let’s go back to that, both facing in stonewalling. Yes. And I can imagine how we get here. A tired person. Over time. And you said that comes over time, right? 

Yeah. Yeah. Kind of a checking out? Yes. It’s in some ways, so generally comes over time. But there’s also truth, Matt, to the reality that all of us bring things into the marriage relationship, both talents and gifts, but also other not so great things. And so it may be that in one spouse’s family of origin, when it came to engaging in healthy conflict, that that didn’t And so their ability to stay with healthy conflict, their tolerance for it is very, very low. 

And so when that happens, then they easily shut down, they withdraw exactly. And so stonewalling essentially is he John Gottman talks about just being flooded out and this isn’t like your basement flooding, but emotionally it gets to a point. That your nervous system is so cranked up that your, you know, logical brain, the ability to think and reason goes offline. 

And so literally, it’s just like this frozen kind of think of a deer in the headlight look is it just shuts the nervous system down, so to speak. And so, again, often happens over time simply because when we’ve had many, many, many. a conversation that haven’t gone well, pick a topic on in laws, and then we even think about having that conversation or one spouse brings it up, then maybe the other one, which typically it’s the husband that stonewalls. 

He found that up to 80 percent of the time, it’s the husband that tends to stonewall. That isn’t always true. But then. You They flood out emotionally, and so they just can’t process and think and engage. It’s not that they don’t want to. So there’s almost like a hope is lost type of idea. I don’t see hope. 

I don’t see, I don’t see good coming from this. Yes, I don’t see good coming from it. Yeah, and even again, we would say they just emotionally, they shut down to the point that they can’t engage. It’s not like that. They don’t want to. Yes, and so the antidote is like, how do I call my body, my mind to be present things back online? 

Exactly. Yes. And you can see how these would exacerbate each other. Yes, as I’m coming in, is not going to make that a very nice environment. To de escalate so that I can come back online. Yes, exactly Yeah, it feels like a threatening environment to come down. You mentioned Criticism and defensiveness kind of being hand in glove. 

Mm hmm. Does stonewalling work that way with any of the others? Is there such a relationship with any of the others? Yeah, I would say I don’t know that this is necessarily true You know, based on research, but definitely I see like defensiveness can over time move into stonewalling and just being flooded out right emotionally. 

And so the individual that tends to avoid or flee when that doesn’t even work, you think about it going into a freeze. Yeah. How did the others break down? Or is there research on that? I don’t know on the other ones, not that I’m aware of. Yeah, it is interesting though. It is. I think it says something about men and emotions and the appearance of them. 

Being present with our emotions that is different than females say more about stonewalling What are some things a person can step into you talked about kind of de escalating so things can come back online Anything practical there. Yeah, so whatever things that help calm you down. So maybe it’s going on a walk, maybe it’s going on a run, maybe it’s, you know, lifting weights, all those things I’ve said are physical. 

Maybe it’s listening to music, but things that help you calm your mind and calm your body would be helpful things to engage. He would say for at least 20 minutes, because when our system is flooded out, Emotionally, it takes a minimum of 20 minutes to calm the system back down and to reengage. And during that 20 minutes of going on a walk, run, whatever, we have to be intentional about not thinking about what I’m going to say or how I’m going to come back or because you’re not going to come down, correct? 

Exactly. It just rubs the system up. But more like my focus is quieting myself to a place that I feel calm again. And I can engage and when I feel calm, I know that I love my wife or my husband or, you know, I want to engage them and it doesn’t feel as overwhelming or insurmountable when I’m in that place. 

So finding those things that help calm and quiet you would be good. Sometimes, you know, calming deep breaths are a good thing. Quieting prayer, you know, things like that. It’s good. Kaleb, as always, this has been really insightful. I think we can all spot these negative behaviors at some level in our lives, or at least we understand what they would look like. 

And I think they provide a great deal of instruction. Thanks for bringing them. Clarity to that. Thanks each one for listening in. God bless you in your relationships.