Biblical Roles of Men & Women in Marriage Webinar

Again, welcome thanks for joining us for this marriage webinar on biblical roles of men and women in marriage. As I said earlier, I’m joined by Kaleb Beyer, our marriage and family therapist here. And also, Katie Miller who is one of the teachers here at ACCFS, and we also get the privilege of working together as spouses, as husband and wife here in some roles.

And we are going to have a conversation today in this area of what it means to think about the biblical roles that the Scripture calls us to as men and women within the marriage context. And so, we’re going to briefly talk a little bit about why this is important. Why do we want to talk about it?

You could say maybe it’s a hot button topic at times. It’s a very weighty topic. Yeah, very important and significant topic for us to speak into. And Scripture has things to teach us. And we want to learn from that. And so that’s the next place where we will go in our outline.

And then just a little bit of cultural versus biblical conversation. So often, sometimes the cultural messages can speak into what we experience, and we want to be able to call that out and have some of that discussion together. So really looking forward to our time together. Kaleb, Katie, maybe first we should just set some ground rules, right?

Or just kind of walk through a few things before we begin. So, either of you start where you’d like to go with that. So, because we only have a little bit of time here, we’re hopefully going to provide you with a resource or some talking points, but this is not going to be an in-depth study or exhaustive by any means. Content in this webinar is meant to encourage and challenge us whether you’re a husband or a wife listening in or whether you’re someone who’s maybe in a mentorship role with a marriage listening in. This is meant to encourage and challenge us to live out those God given roles in a biblical manner and not necessarily to win an argument.

So, husbands or wives if you tuned in today for that purpose, that is not the intent of today’s webinar. That is not what our goal is here, obviously, so just meant to encourage and to challenge us within the Scripture context of these roles, and that third point there, we need to accept that none of us live into these roles perfectly. We’re going to talk about that in many ways. This is aspirational to your point to live into, but we also acknowledge that each of us have areas in which to grow. And so, this is an ideal or aspirational piece that in our marriage relationships were called to lean into but accept that we get it wrong at times. And then the final one there we will not be able to cover all the questions. Unfortunately, there are many good questions, and it would be wonderful to spend the whole time just walking through those questions. But the reality is there are some biblical foundations that will be good for us to walk through and hopefully we’ll address some of those questions as we walk through these slides together.

Absolutely. I appreciate that, Kaleb. And as I said, if questions pop into your minds as we’re walking through this feel free to chat those in and we have people in the back watching and looking through those chats to raise them at the appropriate time, but just that important level set of what we’re hoping to accomplish today as we go through this now.

Kaleb in your role as a marriage and family therapist, you probably see this topic rise up at different times. Why is this such an important topic and why is this good to talk about? Yeah, so I think the first aspect goes to the reality that in Scripture, both in the Old and the New Testament, marriage is a picture or reflection of God’s relationship with us.

And so, in many ways to get this wrong is to get a reflection or image of God wrong. Now, I want to be careful when I say that, because I think we would also say, I think predominantly most of our audience here is we have two believers where there’s a husband and wife who both believe in Christ, but I’m sure you know, as well as I know, situations where there is one spouse who is an unbeliever.

And that in its own way reflects the love of Christ. And so I don’t want to say that there are unique situations that don’t reflect but this is an important aspect to say this is a picture of God and his relationship with us from Genesis all the way to Revelation. And so, that’s why it’s so important and I think Christian couples see it as important and so when we wrestle with it, it’s a hard thing because we value it highly.

Sure, and Genesis calls out from the beginning God made man in his image and towards the end of that the underlying portion there male and female created he them. And by nature, sometimes when you have this conversation about roles, we want to go to this place of greater than or less than or something along those lines. But again, that’s one of those scriptural truths that we need to call out, he made both males and females in his image complete within him. Yet sometimes within these institutions that we call marriage, being a beautiful institution a reflection Of Christ in the church, a reflection that God wants us to represent, there are roles that we play, and there are ways and order and different things that he has seen fit to design.

And so that’s a little bit of the heart behind this aspect here. And one of the thoughts I have that goes with this, where else do you see a picture of covenantal love and faithfulness? And I think, again, in the world today, that is being challenged, but I think it’s a beautiful picture of agape love and commitment in God.

I just wrote a couple a 50th anniversary card And I know this couple well enough to know that there have been probably more hardships and sorrows than joys in their marriage and yet that covenantal relationship, you know, you don’t switch jobs necessarily. You don’t switch. That concept is so important. And that is so blessed like that marriage for you.

So, let’s spend a little bit of time. We’ll start with the husbands. What does the Scripture say about the husband’s role in marriage? And then we’ll go into the wife’s role. And just do some comparison contrast within those from the husband perspective.

Okay, let’s speak into the Scripture a little bit. You have the 1 Corinthians verse there. And then again, we go back to Genesis, what does Scripture call the role of husband from creation? Yeah, so the first thing you can see in 1 Corinthians is that the Apostle Paul is reflecting back to creation.

And so, the order that he establishes, as you can read there in verse three, the head of every man is Christ. The head of the woman is the man, and the head of Christ is the church. And then he goes down to verse eight, for the man is not of the woman, but the woman of the man. And if you look at creation, what does that mean?

Well, it harkens back to the creation story where God established order in the very foundation of creation. If you think about the world that was chaos, and now he brings order to it. And it says there the rib which the Lord had taken from man he made woman. So, there’s this picture of a man and he takes the rib from the man and creates the woman.

And so, we would say from that there’s terminology. And I think there’s quite a bit of discussion on what exactly does that mean? Because even in our English language, when we talk about head, what do you think about a head of committee or the head of an organization?

I think sometimes our English language doesn’t capture what Scripture means. And so, I think it’s helpful to connect these pieces of clear order established by God. Adam’s rib was the source from which Eve was formed. And that’s reflective of order, but not value, correct, Kaleb? I mean, is that an important point here to emphasize or bring to bear here?

Yeah, I think it is because again, I think we put value on certain positions or places or roles and that’s just not what we see in Scripture. Right. Order is God’s design, and this is the way he’s designed it to work, but that doesn’t elevate value or importance because even back to the verse that we talked about, he created male and female, the image bearing piece.

And that is somehow in some way, both distorted. Right. Because hearing that verse read aloud, that both man and woman are equal regardless of first or second. That is a beautiful piece. He created us in his image. Both male and female and the beauty in that and the importance in that. As it says there in bullet three, headship is reflective of order not value. Both are valuable, both are image bearers. But I just want to emphasize the point that I heard both of you bring out there and you said it well, Kaleb, words have connotations that go along with those.

So, whenever we use that word order, we instantly start to think this person is the head. So therefore there’s a hierarchy that comes into being and there’s a nuance there in Scripture that I think is a little bit of a difference that we’re teasing out here that there can be an order, there can be a headship but that doesn’t change the fact that there’s an equality of value between the male and the female or the husband and the wife in this context.

Adam is not superior to Eve. The head doesn’t mean that the woman is subordinate to or less than. This is God’s rule. This is how he lays this out there. That is a wonderful aspect. Yeah. And I think with that, I don’t know that we need to fully understand it to accept that this is God’s design.

And that’s beautiful as the result of that. Yeah. Now, Katie, as a female, I mean, how does that hit you? Or how does that, as you kind of walk through this as a wife, as a married woman. Yeah, when I think of this, there’s going to be certain Scriptures. I’m glad Kaleb brought up the very beginning that there are Old Testament Scriptures and New Testament Scriptures that actually speak to this image bearing.

And there are often times when I read Scripture encouraging someone of that nature in a marriage where maybe one speaks louder than the other. The fact of the matter is it’s a both and. And sometimes when I read Scripture, I find it beautiful. I love the image bearing Scripture, for instance, that we just taught on and so forth, because as a female, as a wife, it does give me courage. It gives me confidence. It reminds me of a view of God that he created both. And I think that’s important. And then there’s sometimes Scripture, I’ll be honest, where I just get a little angsty with and I’m like, oh, Katie, how do I feel about this? I think the bottom line of it, whether male or female, whether it’s a beautiful Scripture, angst Scripture given to you, I do think that it comes to the heart of where I’m at in my relationship with God. It is going to then transcend potentially to my relationship with my covenantal husband and so forth.

So if I’m angsty towards God and sovereignty or omniscience or something of that nature then there are going to be other areas where potentially I’m going to have angst with and potentially the male female area is one of those. So, I guess in my own personal way as a female and as a wife, knowing what Scriptures say and reading in and leaning into the Scriptures and then just growing in them. You know where I was as a six-month new bride it’s very different where I am 18 years later and where I hope to be in future years.

And so, understanding that growth seeing a word like subordinate there doesn’t necessarily mean I am subordinate in value as Kaleb and Arlan just shared. Headship and that wording, but culture changes and kind of flips scripturally. Like what does that mean? Where am I at in my relationship with God and how I view that I think is super important.

And just one thought I want when you’re talking about angst. Yeah. And sometimes, certainly sometimes that can be something within us, but it can also be pictures of what we bring or images of inaccurate representation of what this means. Expectations within my covenantal marriage.

Absolutely. Or pictures of what we’ve seen when we’ve gotten it wrong. A potential comparison or a potential downfall. Yeah, absolutely. Well, and that highlights us next as we go into that next slide there. I mean, we go into this Genesis a little bit further in and this is after the fall, but you see the corruption or distortion that can take place there.

Thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee. Then you start to see this distortion that goes towards ruling and headship in a corrupt way. So, there’s a challenge here for both of us, right? Husbands, we need to guard against seeking dominion over the wife or disengagement.

There’s kind of like that balance and you can fall into a ditch on either side, right? Overly domineering or seeking dominion or complete passivity and disengagement. You know, and that’s where you see the balance. It’s what Scripture calls us to. It’s the same thing on the wife’s side. Guard against it may be an unhealthy dependence upon their husband to be in complete control of all things or that rejection of God’s order that rejection of what God has laid out there.

So that’s the distortion that we are wrestling against. And I think that’s where some of that, sometimes that angst kind of plays within it. And it’s a part of that. I mean, Kaleb, you speak into this. That’s a part of our nature. It’s a part of the sin nature that we would wrestle with. Absolutely.

Yeah, I think it’s different than when he created both and they said they will have dominion right now. It’s like power and control and that plays out in relationships. And I think some of this we’re speaking about biblical roles of men and women in marriage, but this isn’t outside the context of a relationship of a husband and wife meaning outside of the roles which they play. What is the environment or health of that relationship. Yeah, that impacts sometimes the wrestling for control or to be seen. That’s lived out not always in sinful ways. Yeah, right. That’s a key point though. I want to pull that out just a little bit. So, you’re saying Kaleb, sometimes you know when a marriage is not in a healthy state for whatever reason. Sometimes things within our control, sometimes things even outside of our control that are pressing in upon us. When a marriage is in an unhealthy state, sometimes it manifests itself through situations like this.

Yes, and I think that’s important because sometimes we can make causality, or we can say this is the cause of it when sometimes it’s other things just playing themselves out in life. Let’s dig into that a little bit more. Let’s go to the positive. So, what does Scripture again call us as husbands? And what role do we have within the marriage? We go back to the Ephesians 5 passage where you have this strong calling to be reflective of Christ. Love your wife even as Christ also loved the church and gave himself for it. And then it goes on a little bit further but the beauty of loving and giving for the benefit of someone else I think we can call this servant leadership versus a domineering or a strong leadership.

The other person is elevated, and I am leading through my love. Kaleb, that last bullet there, true headship takes responsibility to lead as an example of love while providing protection in the home. Winning the wife’s obedience to God and presenting her to God without blemish.

Speak into that from your perspective as you’ve worked with couples or if you’ve seen that. What is a reflection of a healthy marriage in this regard? Yeah, so to that point, it is a husband leaning into and acknowledging their role as God has designed it, which is huge.

Think about this, that we are supposed to model Christ somehow in some way. We called out the John 13 of serving Christ. But if you think about Christ, it’s like he was moved by us so much that he responded. He listened to the Father to come here, but also his response to us was shaped by who we were to the point of death and as husbands were called into that, which is a really high calling to reflect Christlike servant leadership and love to our spouses, our wives, so that they can obey God. There’s an environment that’s created that they can live out their role to God and to his praise and his glory.

And there’s a weight there. I mean, there’s a weight to consider. I remember when we were newly engaged, I took that verse, and I wrote it down on a little piece of paper. And I stuck it on the dashboard of my car. And I do think his example is a reminder. I remember when we were first married and you stuck that, I was like, oh, that’s so sweet. He’s going to love me just as Christ loved the church.

And then as years went on, that actually he chose that verse. He could have chosen a lot of Scripture, but that verse exactly showed his heart and like this is what covenantal marriage means. He’s willing to step into this just as Christ loved the church and gave himself for it and Scripture is very clear with the Christ and church analogy. That’s extremely powerful to me.

And that’s extremely powerful I would say in our marriage when we do remember roles, but that’s extremely weighty. Like you said, Kaleb, that is not to be dismissed. That is to be honored. That is, in my opinion as a woman and as female, a hard position. That’s a hard position Very well, I will say this.

It’s one of those verses that I don’t know if we have ever plumbed the depths of. I mean, it’s partly up there and it hasn’t gone away because it’s not been figured out, right? It’s a reminder, a continual thing to think about and it manifests itself in different seasons of life at different times.

What does it mean for a husband to give himself for his spouse and to lead in that regard as Christ gave himself for us, for the church. And what does that look like at different seasons of Christ’s life? So on and so forth, right? There’s  an elevation, a cherishing of the spouse that takes place where they are elevated in some ways.

And we are elevated. There’s a submission in that place where we put their needs, their desires, their needs above our own. Yeah, and I think in that it is our spouse. So, I think as husbands, we are to know our spouse not to compare them to someone else but based on who they are. Because I think Christ approached us in that way in knowing us and knowing our needs. And so, I think it’s important sometimes we can compare to others, but we are to know our wife as husbands in a way that we know what it looks like to serve them to love them not as if they were my mom or somebody else and I just think that expectation is really helpful.

Yeah, before we go on to the wise portion of this, I think as a wife, we’re just encouraging young wives or otherwise. I’m very honest with where we’re at in our marriage as far as how can I encourage that role in my husband? And even things of encouragement through that. And I remember when an older lady mentioned, just appreciate your husband’s intentions. Appreciate the provisions for the family. If the husband is the primary breadwinner of the family and you try to do your best to live within their means, that is actually honoring and respecting.

And it is a part of the church that we are representing as a community that we are respecting that order and that headship and honoring the position that he is to love us as Christ loved the church and so forth. Living within means being realistic then with what your husband’s intentions are and expectations are.

You know, a little bit to your point, but expectations of not being someone else or comparing to someone else like that can go both ways actually. So, as a wife Just a few things to think about and step into with that is what it looks like to appreciate your husband’s intentions, appreciate his role within the family, within the marriage.

Well, let’s just use an example here in the next slide. You’ll see just a simple example of purchasing a car. By contrast it pulls out different types of leadership roles you could play. So, a ruling leader or a domineering leader is going to purchase a car without even considering the wife or the family, right? Whatever they want, they’re just going to do. The passive non leader puts off the discussion. Shopping and researching are done by the wife alone, puts it on them, becomes non communicative and then even angry when they don’t like the choice. It’s like that passive aggressive, not going to say anything until it’s wrong. And then they unleash.

Versus that servant leadership, which I think is what we were talking about. Engaging the wife makes a joint decision based upon input desires of the wife, places need of the family and the wife before their own. There’s a little bit of a dying to self that can take place within that leadership style. I think it can help paint a picture.

Now, Katie, what you brought in is even just within the wife role there, there’s a beautiful aspect there too. To, again, have reasonable expectations for the situation, and be realistic about her husband and what he’s trying to do, what he’s able to do.

Absolutely. You know, for instance, in this example here given to us from preparing for marriage, what the is the wife’s role if it’s the husband’s car, if it’s going to be primarily her car, what that looks like, what the needs are what are some of the priorities of this car. I think this is an example of where value and input are super important in a marriage. And it doesn’t play well if a spouse becomes non communicative or angry and doesn’t like the choice. They probably want to know exactly what that car is going to offer, and I want this or I should have that and do you really need that and should you have that. Or are there one or two priorities if this is going to be the family car? What does that look like? And trying to honor and support each other through that.

Let’s go on then to the wife’s role. And just again see what Scripture speaks into that. So, similar passages if we are in that Genesis 2 type place. The role that’s called out there. Adam says this is now bone of my bones, flesh of my flesh. She shall be called woman because she was taken out of man. So, we have that order of creation that takes place there and this familiar passage. Just dwell on this a little bit in verse 18, the Lord God said it’s not good that man should be alone, but I will make a help meet for him or a helper for him.

Kaleb, speak to that as you engage couples or just consider what Scripture is teaching us here. What does that mean? You know that helper aspect really speaks about how we use help in our society today. I think it’s not what is intended by Scripture. Because in some ways though, if you think about the help meet, that first bullet point. I think first it’s establishing that there is a sameness meaning bone of bone, flesh of flesh, but there is also an otherness. There is a difference. And so I think that’s the first aspect which we also see in the Trinity.

Sameness, but different. Exactly. Yes. And that’s reflective, I think, of his image. But I think then from that, what it says is somehow in the other, there’s something that the man doesn’t have that is reflected in the woman in this case. And so, I have a couple of kids in high school and one in junior high. One graduated now, but at times our kids in school ask us for help.

Yeah. Well, why do they ask us for help? Sometimes I can help them with some of their homework because they’re not able to do it on their own. Right. And I think that’s when Scripture speaks to a help meet. There is something very foundational that Scripture is teaching. And even as it’s shown there in the final bullet point, Psalm 33:20 is this is the same word. That’s fascinating to me. God and Scripture. I love that. Well, it highlights my neediness and the fact that I need a helper. I need someone to help support me and help me through life.

And then the beauty of God and his desire for us, his creation, is his love for us. That he can provide that within his creation, right? Within his creation context, he can provide that helper. So, the role then for the wife is to really be reflective of, again, Christ and the church. We go back to Ephesians 5. Submitting yourselves one to another in the fear of God. Wives, submit yourselves unto your husbands as unto the Lord. For the husband is head of the wife, even as Christ is head of the church. And he is the Savior of the body. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ, so let wives be to their own husbands in everything.

Now, this brings in that idea of submission. Again, a word that can be a hot button within society today. But an important scriptural word that we need to speak into, and we need to recognize what Scripture is speaking into it. Kaleb, where do you see couples stumble with this or just struggle to live this out or what does that look like in your experience?

So, I think just a misconception of what submission is and what it means. I keep going back to our world and the reflection of submission and the me or self-centric kind of world. So, I think first it’s the acknowledgement for us that submission begins with the reverence of God.

And it begins there and all of us are called to that. But I think where I see it get wrong in couples is submission does not mean, and again I think this is the context of the marriage relationship, that I give up expressing my needs and expressing certain longings and that I’m just okay in that place.

Well, no, part of a healthy relationship is what’s called mutuality. And there’s an openness to express and honor and reflect, not demand, because we would say submission is not something that even Christ demands. Absolutely. He invites us and it is a response of willingness that we give ourselves in the place of seeing his sacrificial love and how he loves us and so I think there’s again the distortion of what it is. But also, then I think we need to see submission in the whole context of the entire marriage relationship.

Absolutely. Sure. And the whole context of Scripture as that last bullet pulls out. You think about Christ’s submission there in Philippians to that beautiful passage that speaks to him coming and surrendering himself even to the death of the cross, right? It says there he’s not less divine by submission. But his divinity was revealed in that submission. There’s a beautiful calling there. Now, Katie, what emotions does this kind of slide perhaps evoke? Yeah, so I’ll be honest. This is read at many weddings. I would say in my personal journey and testimony, this specific Scripture with the word submission just in general would kind of hit wrong. I’ll be honest. And I can now honestly say, and there are good days and bad days, but for the most part, I actually think submission is beautiful. It is absolutely beautiful.

It is and that perfect submission is what put Christ on the cross. He wasn’t forced up there. He chose it. He chose it to honor God, the Father. Just as husbands love their wives as Christ loves the church so we, in this beautiful piece, choose what this looks like. That last point part there, I love that transition word there. Therefore, as the church is subject unto Christ. And in a marriage relationship, that would be the husband.

So let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. That in everything doesn’t mean a doormat. That doesn’t mean subordination. That doesn’t mean negative connotations of what submission truly is but as a reverence to God, each of those roles, whether it’s the husband reflecting the church or wives reflecting that perfect submission piece within that marital covenant relationship.

It’s beautiful. Do I get it right every single time? Not necessarily. Do I talk to other women who struggle with it? Absolutely. But even just the word submission and culture, I think has been battered and bruised and not done well to where when something like this Scripture is opened and we learn it and we lean into it and we ask the Spirit for help, it’s hard.

It’s hard. And so, I would encourage you if there are wives out there or young marriages, I would just encourage you to think about submission in that Trinity context, in the context that God intended the marital covenant to continue and reflect. And then what that means in Christ’s choice. He wasn’t coerced on the cross, right? He willingly went there. And what that looks like. But even at first, it starts with submitting yourselves one to another in fear of God. It’s not just one sided. There is a both-sided aspect of submission that is important to play out and important to realize the beauty of what it is.

So, this is a definite aspect of the role of a wife in marriage. But let’s again, broaden out the context here of Scripture. Some other examples that you see within women’s Scripture passages. We often go to Proverbs 31. You study that passage of Proverbs 31, the attributes of a woman within that passage it talks about being generous, proactive, industrious, strong, right?

Buying fields and all kinds of things, but this verse, especially, I love this verse personally, the heart of her husband does safely trust her. And I think another way you can even say that is the heart of her husband is entrusted to her, which again speaks to the power of that helper, that power of that help meet to build up our hearts as husbands, the power of the impact of that encouraging role or the power of the impact if that is not healthy and that goes towards that place of destructive words or negative words.

I am challenged by that verse as well. In a great way understanding that there is neediness towards our relationship and that I’m a needy person and just the power of that encourager role, I think culture gets this wrong that actually our encourager role our help meet role is extremely powerful. And it has the power to build up our mates or in a few words just tear to pieces. That is powerful. That’s a fierce strong role that clearly this verse talks to in Scripture as do others. I think that’s also a humbling role. I have a position, and I have a role to play within our marriage and that is a powerful one.

I really appreciate you sharing that, Katie, because I think it is encouraging. I can in some ways speak encouraging words to Arlan and in some ways the light that’s shown is like a flashlight compared to the words you speak are like a floodlight. You can still encourage him. I can still and I think that shows the intimacy covenant.

Yeah, beautiful relationship. Absolutely. Christ created. Yeah, for sure. A very important point. Yeah, we can go into Titus then to another little bit different passage here that again is speaking to the role that the older mothers of the church have to teach the younger women to be sober to love their husbands to love their children. Just that role of modeling for the next generation is a powerful role which wives play within the marriage, but then also within the church as a whole. It sets that foundation of stability that love. The two things they call their love for their husbands love for their children and the sober clear mindedness focus there.

Any other thoughts on this aspect of women in Scripture or where we see women’s roles called out within Scriptures and the fullness of that. I do love that Titus verse just simply because women teaching women and marriage is a great context and relationship to do that. What am I modeling for my daughters?

Honoring and loving a husband look right for future years and likewise, Arlan and Kaleb for their sons of what that looks like. I do love that strong marriages create strong churches and create strong missions. And so those are pieces that are that important.

I agree. I think it creates a safe place in the home to be able to learn that. And there is something about children seeing love and forgiveness played out that this is a place where they can grow and mature in a really healthy way. Well, it’s safety attachment, all those things that play out there.

I mean, right now, our five-year-old, anytime we give each other a hug, she’s right there and she wants to be part of it, right, which will be really sweet in time, right? But it is still sweet right now. It’s a little wrong every now and then, but it shows that affection is contagious.

Yeah, I think in a powerful and important way that needs to be played out in the forgiveness piece. I think it’s important too because sometimes getting it wrong helps future learning. Right. So that’s important and the acknowledgement of that. Absolutely that we are not going to do over. We are not getting it right every time.

Absolutely. So, let’s shift here just a little bit. And then we’ll move towards a couple of questions or summations at the end here. Cultural doesn’t necessarily mean biblical. Let’s call out the reality that we live within a cultural context. Cultural context has messaging, has ways that it deems the world to be right in the culture’s eyes.

And so, you have messages that sometimes can line up with Scripture, but often do not. Right. So, we just call out some of the clear ones there at the top. Men like blue and are unemotional. Women like pink and they’re like babies, right? And this kind of thing just fits the cultural message.

Men get dirty, they’re mechanics, they work on things, they fix things. Women, they bake, and they clean or whatever, right? And some of those connotations can really chafe us or work against us, but it leans into this. Perhaps expectation to fulfill a certain role, even if it’s not yours, and the reality is that’s not always the case.

Right? I mean, that’s what you would say. Yeah, for sure. So, even though we would say stereotype, that there are individuals that fit outside of that. Yes. And that doesn’t mean it’s not biblical. Yeah. You know, if a husband really enjoys babies and infants when the mother doesn’t. Yeah, I mean, there’s nothing scriptural in the sense about that even though generally speaking we would say in our marriage I really enjoy babies. When they got a little older my wife loved it Yeah, but that isn’t always true. I can think of brothers who actually love babies more than maybe their fussy toddler or even teenage stages for sure.

Absolutely. And so I think we just have to be careful that what is normative to us now in our culture doesn’t mean in Scripture throughout history, that is what we’re referring to. And stereotypes don’t equate to normative values or roles. One is not more important because the brother likes the baby than the sister likes the older kid. It’s a both and, right? There’s no overvaluing a specific role or position that culture maybe speaks to.

Well, I think the other place too, where it comes in is when you think about family of origins. So, a marriage is two people coming together with a family of origin behind them which has laid out some expectations of perhaps this is what the husband does. This is what the wife does. And that’s a fun premarital exercise when you sit down and say, okay, let’s sketch that out. You know, who takes out the trash or who does the grilling or the cooking or who does, you know, whatever type thing and realize the impact that those assumptions or those expectations can have then on what we project upon our own marriage relationship.

Yeah, I think a healthy awareness of that is really helpful because otherwise we put pressure and expectations on the marriage to perform in a certain way that really isn’t even biblical. And that affects living out our biblical roles. But, yeah, I mean, to your point of our parents, our dad doing something and our mom doing something.

And even like the context of our families. So, I grew up with all boys. And so, guess what? Yeah, well, a lot of energy, but also like doing the dishes, you know, helping with the kitchen. And so that may have been different. Yeah, that may have been different if I had sisters. And again, it’s not bad or wrong, but I’m just saying that has affected moving into marriage relationship where what that looks like in the home is different than what someone may have grown up with.

Yeah. So, there’s the cultural expectation as a whole, what society is speaking into, but then there are just our own experiences and the expectations that can come from our own experience and then what we project into our own marriage. Right. And I think in both of those situations, it is possible that sometimes our view is smaller than God’s. I think that we have to own that within our own life because you look at the complexity of Scripture, right? David was the man that killed Goliath, but he also wrote poetry, which again speaks against that cultural message.

Well, one fits the other doesn’t. Some of the men were willing to be the artistic designers of the early tabernacle while you have Deborah leading Israel to war. Ruth working in the field, Abigail being a mediator, showing a lot of strength in that regard. So, I think it is important when I’m thinking through this is it’s important to understand where our assumptions come from and are those assumptions that we have, that we live out in our lives, are they based upon Scripture or are they based upon something else?

I think that’s well stated. Thank you. Any other thoughts in this regard or else we can start to transition towards questions. I think this one specifically speaks to the premarital work that you do with couples, Kaleb. Sometimes you do some enrichment and so forth about roles and things like that. Do you want to go into that or share a little bit with the premarital couples and what sometimes can help with this situation.

Yeah. So, what Arlan referenced is just an exercise for both the man and the woman fill out. Like, what did my mom do? What did my dad do? And then what do I expect to do or my spouse in the marriage relationship?

And it’s just a really healthy way of putting our expectations up here onto paper and then having a conversation about it together. And some of those aren’t just tangible, take the trash out, do the dishes. Some of it’s like, what does reading together look like? What does prayer life look like? What, where, how are we going to initiate some of those things?

So, it’s definitely a component of many areas of life, including the spiritual. Yeah. Is that fair? Yeah, that’s important. Let’s transition to just a question or so if I could, and if you have questions that this is stirred up in the background, feel free to chat those in and we’ll bring some attention to those.

But one of the questions that we saw came through with those who registered and submitted. So, questions, suggestions, we really appreciate it when you send those. A couple of them came to this place of what do we do when this is not our experience? Okay, so we understand this is what Scripture says and we get a sense of this is what we are supposed to lean into or try to but if we’re living in a marriage where this is not our experience where the husband is not the spiritual leader or the spiritual head? I am hoping he would be, or the wife is playing roles that I’m not really expecting her to play or that doesn’t line up with what my expectations were.

How do we step into that? Or what are some things to think about in that context? Yeah. So, my first thought goes to Arlan. You do a lot of training on having a crucial conversation, which means it has high emotion, high value and opposing sides.

Yeah. So, I think we have to acknowledge that because this is really important to us as believers to get it right. And so that’s the context out of which we have the conversation, which is why I think it’s so important to say, what’s the health of the marriage relationship outside of that and are needs being met.

But when it comes to, for example, spiritual leadership, one of the things I think through is this coming from a place of insecurity? Because for the man, is he feeling insecure. Yes. Does the man feel insecure about stepping into it? You know, I’ve talked to husbands that even to pray out loud is difficult.

And again, you know, some of us had that modeled but others have life experiences where it was either not modeled or not modeled well. And so, is the lack of that spiritual leading and stepping into it from insecurity? Is it from more of a refusal? Is there a difference in expectations? In some couples, there may be a wife that had a spiritual giant for a father and is expecting their husband to fill that kind of role which it is really unrealistic that he ever will.

And so, I think trying to tease out and understand what the context is out of which it’s not happening is really helpful because I would approach those in different ways. I think because if it is a passivity issue, or if it is a refusal issue, that takes a certain line of encouragement, challenging, live up to your calling type of approach.

If it’s an insecurity, to come in with a heavy hand is going to work against it. Right. And back to the power that we were talking about of encouraging words. Yeah, to be able to know, oh, that’s what it’s like for you. And I think too, as a wife to speak into understanding what is that?

You know, I’m expecting spiritual leadership, or I want prayer to happen or something that Kaleb just gave examples of. And so, we make it conditional almost. So, if they do this, then I will do this type of deal, and it just creates that vicious cycle. This is not conditional. You know, I need to encourage and speak into whether it is an insecurity or whether it is a need or if it’s something that wasn’t modeled and try to help support that in a God honoring way and not just like a black white this is wrong or right. This is not helping. It’s just going to continue that cycle.

So, you’re called into obedience, I’m called into obedience, we’re all called into obedience regardless of what the result might be. Because it’s about being obedient to what the Scripture calls us to or what the calling of the Word is. That’s a powerful thing to consider, to play out there. There are a few resources that can go deeper into this, and we’ll link these onto our website where we put this webinar recording. A shorter article on biblical headship and submission, some discussion, a bit longer article on roles, responsibilities, and decision making in marriage.

And then a book that we’ve found to be quite helpful in this area on the meaning of marriage by the Kellers. They speak into that as we wrap this up to a close. Kaleb, I’m curious. Any thoughts you might have in summation as we think about the importance of this topic, biblical order and biblical roles within a marriage relationship? Anything that you’d like to leave with?

I think just again, back to where we started with God. This is a vision that he’s given us to lean into and step into. And it’s important, but we also acknowledge we don’t always get it right, but continuing to encourage each other to lean into it, I think also is sanctifying for each of us individually.

For me as a husband, I appreciate you putting the verse on your dashboard and like, okay, what does that look like to lean into that and owning that and taking responsibility for it, even though we have a long way to go but it’s worth it and I think it’s worth it because this is bigger than us.

Absolutely This is about God. Yeah, this is about his design, his reflection and about the gospel message that we’re called to live and lean into. Katie, any thoughts? I think just the beautiful piece that the marriage relationship does illustrate about the gospel about you are going to get it wrong but there is grace and there’s forgiveness and that there is beauty in all of the roles. Whether you are the husband, the loving leader that Scripture speaks to and that cultural leader, or whether you’re the wife called to be that important, strong, fierce, encourage your helper role for your husband within your marriage, and that’s a piece of the gospel, and it’s a beautiful piece to continue to grow into and to lean into.

Appreciate that. Thanks to both of you for sharing and just an encouragement to lean into the beauty of what Scripture calls right. It’s a reflection very near to God’s heart as we love well, as we encourage well, as we help well, as we submit well, as we live this out in very real and tangible ways.

Thanks for joining us today. Really appreciate you taking the time. We hope to have this recording captured and put on our website and just be aware there are more webinars upcoming. If you’d like to know what’s coming, you can go to the events portion of our website, look underneath upcoming webinars. We have a list of future webinars there. Thanks again and blessings on your day.