Marijuana Podcast Episode

More and more people are seeing marijuana becoming more acceptable or a valid option, both as a medical treatment and for recreation. Welcome friends to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. It is great to introduce you to Dr. Aaron Platner. Aaron, you’ve been on before. Thanks. Thanks for being here in the office today.

One of the goals we have with this particular podcast is to speak to relevant issues of the time to help provide information where information might be lacking. And the issue today that we want to talk about is marijuana and it seems to be a growing issue.

A decade ago, the answer was really pretty clear. No, was the answer to marijuana. And now that question is a bit grayer. And to our listeners, I introduced Aaron as a doctor, and he is a psychiatrist. And so, you no doubt work with this. You see this and you’re forced to think through some of these issues.

Help lay a bit of the landscape here for this conversation. Sure. So, on one aspect, marijuana has been around for a long time. We think of the seventies, the sixties, the era of the hippies. Marijuana was very much part of the culture, but, from a federal perspective, illegal. But now on another level in the last number of years, marijuana has both become legal as medical marijuana, but also in a few states, such as my own state of Michigan, it is now recreationally legal.

This is a shift. I think you’ve provided actually two very helpful categories, medicinal or recreational. So maybe let’s take those separately because they are separate issues, aren’t they? They are. So, marijuana is a plant. We start out saying that in the beginning, God created the heavens and the earth, and it was good.

And part of that goodness he did create marijuana. So, marijuana in and of itself, we won’t say is bad or evil. It’s how it’s used. Because that’s one of the arguments that people will make is, hey, listen, this is a natural thing. That is a very common argument I see on the inpatient unit when I have people who are smoking marijuana and having psychiatric problems. I try to explain to them, we need to be careful about marijuana. Then they said but this is natural and yeah, you know, so is poison ivy.

I wouldn’t recommend smoking that, but just because it’s natural doesn’t necessarily mean it’s healthy in the way we use it. So, in the plant itself that is smoked, you have different kinds of chemicals in that. They’re all under the umbrella of cannabinoids. The big one is THC or tetrahydrocannabinoid. That’s the one that’s actually going to give you a high. You’re going to smoke it or there’s different ways to use it because marijuana is like oil. You think about cooking with canola oil or other things like that. You can do the same thing with marijuana. So, you can use marijuana and cook it into marijuana brownies. This is commonly known, and you see edibles like gummy bears or candy bars and that can be a bit dangerous because it doesn’t look dangerous because they’re gummy bears. Yeah, it looks innocent but you’re saying there are really lots of ways to take in these chemicals.

The other one that people might see is CBD or cannabidiol. Now that’s a different type of marijuana that does have some medical benefits. But if you use CBD or cannabidiol, you’re not going to get high. So, the more CBD you have the less THC and vice versa. Okay, so when people say I’m going to use CBD, that is marijuana but not the type to get high off of. So, there are those two different categories, right?

Yes. If it’s medicinal, it’s going to be largely CBD. Yes. Is that right? But if it’s recreational, you’re probably looking for THC. Yes, I think that’s very insightful. We’ve got one plant, but we’ve got multiple parts of this plant. The plant is called marijuana. And yet within this plant, there are different chemicals that can be used at different intensities.

Yes. So, when we think about marijuana of the seventies, the amount of THC available then was much, much less than what we have now. The THC that we’re having in newer forms is much more potent than what we were smoking back in the 70s at Woodstock, for instance. It’s just that people are intentionally producing it with higher THC levels. Well now that it’s become more of a market, you have to understand that people are going to breed different types of marijuana to get the desired effects.

I mean you have people who figure out how I can get a specific type of marijuana to get the most desired effect. So, not all plants are equal. And then, once again, you can use the plant in different ways to get more of an effect. So, when people say, well, my parents or my uncle smoked marijuana, they’re fine.

This is a different type of concentration we’re seeing. So, not all plants are equal and not all intake methods are equal. Correct. And so, by tampering with these, we can get altogether a much different experience. Okay. So, that’s helpful information leading us to what do we do?

Yes. This certainly is becoming more pervasive. So, you have the states out on the coast that have legalized it and some of the interior states but most of the states at this point have done medical or more CBD use only. But you also have some states that have actually decriminalized recreational use. The other thing is that of the total U. S. population in about 2017, about 65 percent said that it should be legalized. In 1997, when you looked at the U.S. total, about 25 percent of people said that marijuana should be legalized. So, a huge shift in public opinion. Yeah. So, if our politicians are saying that this should be legalized, I don’t see why the laws aren’t going to follow.

Which goes to one of my concerns is that our policies are quite a bit ahead of our research of what marijuana can or cannot do both good and bad. And so, let’s go to that research part of things. I would really like to know, what is research saying about marijuana in terms of its effect? Yes.

One of the things I will say about studies is that you have so many different types of marijuana used in different ways, which means that we’re getting different effects. So, to study marijuana, it’s hard to have a controlled environment, the current state of evidence, and recommendations for research. This was produced by the National Academies of Science Engineering and Medicine available online and essentially, they said that we need more information.

There’s really not a lot of consistent evidence that can give us what type to use and how much you use. And so, it is a bit of a free market. I will say that the American Medical Association does not endorse marijuana. Neither does the American Psychiatric Association or the American Society of Addiction Medicine.

So, they’ve been a bit conservative on this, but the results show that for chronic pain in adults, to help with nausea, and then help people who report having spasticity with multiple sclerosis. There is some evidence that shows perhaps marijuana can be outside of that. The evidence is more moderate or maybe there could be a potential leaning towards evidence, but the evidence is not that strong.

So, just to unpack a little bit about what you’ve said here, there are studies being done and the studies you’ve quoted are more specifically around medicinal use. Yes. As a medicine, is it effective? There are some associations that have not yet placed their stamp of approval behind it simply because they’re watching the research, and the P values aren’t small enough yet.

Yes. The evidence has not been enough to say the effect that they are touting is indeed the case. Yes. Am I thinking through that correctly? The policy is ahead of our science. Right. So, we don’t have the data even though marijuana is more and more readily available, and you can go to a marijuana shop where people have different forms, and they’re called bud tenders which are people giving recommendations of which marijuana can or cannot be helpful.

And I’m sure they’re very nice people, but they don’t have medical degrees. The other thing is there are some increased concerns for adverse problems with marijuana. So, if someone has a medication that the FDA is trying to approve and they have these side effects that come up, they’re not going to approve them.

So, these different organizations are looking, okay, what can we be helpful for? But what are the harms? Yeah. What’s the shadow to this? Yeah. And so, the concern with marijuana, specifically THC, we’re finding that people who use marijuana before the age of 25, and age of 25 is when the brain typically stops its full development, they find that you do have a reduction of your IQ, about eight points. Now, the other concern that happens is that about 10 percent of people, this is a rough estimate, will become physically dependent or addicted to marijuana. So, it shifts from, I’m using marijuana to feel good to the dependency and using marijuana not to feel bad.

The other concern that happens is developmentally. God sanctifies us through these times of pain or confusion or trying to wrestle through what’s going on. And that’s for edification. We see that all through the Bible. If someone’s going through middle school, high school, which can be tough years, and they have these experiences that they could either choose to walk through and cause stress and develop from that or they can get high. Sometimes you’re just going to get high and the problem with getting high is you blunt your response of learning to work through difficulty. Because you are high right you don’t have to worry about it. And so sometimes we see people as they grow. Whenever they start using whatever substances marijuana or alcohol or whatever their maturation kind of stops. It caps.

So, if I start using substances or marijuana at the age of 18 and then life goes on and I keep growing, if I continue to rely on marijuana to work through those things I’m not going to develop properly. So, I could be 28 but I’ve been using heavy marijuana for 10 years and I’m still functioning more like a teenager. Okay, because you haven’t learned the hard lessons.

I have not learned the hard lessons. So, check my understanding here. What we have going on here and you’re really speaking to using marijuana at young ages. You mentioned younger than 25. When you are in these ages you need to be growing in a number of ways, not only physically, but also growing mentally and growing emotionally.

And you’re saying that marijuana and getting high, there is an anxiety reducing element to that, which is a true statement. It is. So, when you’re using marijuana in that short time, you are going to feel less anxious. So, as I am growing and I come to difficult parts where I have pain or I have discomfort, I have stress, I have anxiety, good anxiety meant to grow us.

And we get out from underneath that discomfort by marijuana. We don’t grow through it. Absolutely. And so, then our growth kind of gets capped at that level. It can. Yes. Marijuana can create short term comfort. But when you look at the data out long, people using marijuana long term, their anxiety is actually worse because marijuana can only make you feel better in the short term.

And marijuana is not going to fix it. You cannot spend your whole life in it. Yeah. You can’t medicate your life away, your pain away for your life. Right? That is true. So, you really broached the area that we really want to go into and that is spiritual. How do we discern this as believing Christians?

Because I think we are hearing winsome arguments from both sides, right? We’re trying to sort it out, is this right or is it not? Is this medicinal? Is this recreational? And well, okay. So, what if it is recreational? Are we against recreation? I mean, and so we do have to recognize that. You know, our bodies are the holy temple, and marijuana can cause problems, particularly if you’re under 25 with a high use of THC.

If you have a personal history of psychotic symptoms, you have an increased risk of having psychotic symptoms. And most people say, well, I don’t have a family history of psychotic or psychiatric disorder.

And I always warn them that, you know, we used to think marijuana was like shoveling your snow off your driveway causing a heart attack versus a cheeseburger causing a heart attack. So, there’s a causal relationship. Yes, we’re finding people who smoke marijuana. It’s more like a cheeseburger.

It’s causing schizophrenia. It’s not like shoveling the snow where it was going to happen. Eventually, you just sped it up if you smoke marijuana under 25 or anyone above 25 with a family history or personal history of psychosis your chances of having Schizophrenia or other psychotic symptoms from smoking marijuana, particularly those rich in THC increases similarly to eating a cheeseburger every day. Now I would say that gives cause for people to say, okay, my body is the holy temple. I want to be aware of that. But when I’ve discussed this with people, they will throw different things back that I need to be aware of. They will say, well, you know, Christians tend not to be the healthiest either. And they can point out other things that we do that maybe we’re not honoring our bodies, the temple.

So, let’s just take that one. Let’s take gluttony maybe. Eating lots of calorie intake, lots of sugar and that type of thing. Okay. Are these one to one? We’re going to call this recreational cinnamon rolls or recreational marijuana. Is this one to one or how are they different? Is this recreational or is it more of an intoxication? I would say they’re not one to one. Now probably the best example is alcohol because we do have alcohol discussed in the Bible multiple times. Paul says in Ephesians 5:18 and be not drunk with wine wherein is excess but be filled with the Spirit?

So, if we know that intoxication by alcohol is disallowed in the Bible and marijuana has an intoxication effect and that’s disallowed in the Bible, we’d say because A and B, alcohol and marijuana share characteristic X, the psychoactive effect, we can conclude marijuana is being disallowed in the Bible as well.

So, really what we’re doing here, Aaron, is we’re making a case that even though we don’t have smoking marijuana or intaking marijuana anyway in the Scriptures, yet the Scriptures still speak to it. And so, we’re really pairing it up next to alcohol because Scripture does speak to alcohol.

Alcohol and marijuana have a common psychiatric effect that’s prohibited in the Scripture. Now, I bet there’s some gray nuances here. There are, we would all agree that you can have some alcohol and not be intoxicated. You can have some alcohol and not disobey the Scripture. And I respect many people out there who would say, I don’t drink any alcohol.

And that’s certainly a place to stay. And there’s some people who would enjoy alcohol in the context of their weaker brother and those sorts of things. And so, there’s that flexibility. Do we have that flexibility with marijuana? Can you use marijuana at a level, and this is specifically THC, that does not actually cause intoxication?

And the answer to that question is no, I do not believe that you can use marijuana at a level that you cannot have that intoxication effect. So let me digest what I think you’re saying. There is an effect of alcohol that a person uses recreationally, whether taste or otherwise, that is not intoxicating.

You’re saying for marijuana, there is not an effect of marijuana that occurs before intoxication. There’s a pastor who probably says things better than me, but he says the only thing that pot does for you is get you buzzed and is the one use prohibited concerning alcohol. When Paul tells us not to be drunk with wine, he did not mean getting drunk with beer or scotch was acceptable.

The problem is not the wine, but rather the loss of self-control. And because such mental impairment is the whole point of smoking pot, recreational marijuana use is a serious sin from the very first toke on down. No one smokes pop because it pairs nicely with the fish, and I think that’s the real issue. Can you smoke marijuana to the glory of God?

The problem is that it only takes a little marijuana to get the desired effect. One hit can really make you have that altered mental status. And I think as mentioned before the whole point of smoking marijuana, once again the THC is to become high. That is the point of marijuana. Once again, we’re only talking about THC, not CBD.

So, I don’t know how you can use THC when the only really result is to become high to the glory of God. I think that’s a very powerful wherewithal you’ve just shared with that dynamic and putting it against alcohol and helping us understand how these drugs differ. But you have to think of our brain as being basically a large pharmacy. Most of the things we ingest go to our brain and then kick our brain into gear to produce the natural neurotransmitters or chemicals that cause the different changes. So, marijuana is doing the same thing. When you smoke that, it activates different cannabinoids in your brain to give that calming high effect. With marijuana THC, I don’t see THC doing anything but intoxicating someone.

Another thing would be caffeine. We can drink caffeine to the glory of God because by drinking caffeine it can activate us. It can make us sharper. It can make us more aware. It’s a very social event to drink coffee. I’d argue that our minds are made sharper for us to be able to engage in conversation or hear the Scripture or to enjoy conversation. With marijuana, even very social people smoking together, it’s going to dull the senses.

It’s going to make people less communicative, less able to remember what occurred. I think what’s fascinating too, and you can check my understanding of what I think the Scripture is saying when it says, don’t be drunk with wine, but be filled with the Holy Spirit. Relinquishing control of our minds is like a big deal to God.

Yes. And he says, don’t put it under the control of alcohol, put it under the control of the Holy Spirit. And I wonder, is that even a metric that we should be using? I think even with alcohol use, because for some of the examples that you mentioned, some would use alcohol because it makes them feel differently about a social situation.

For example, I mean, are we being thoughtful a little bit about the control that we’re relinquishing? And even in those moments too, you know, I think it’s an expansive question. It is a very expensive question, and I don’t want this to be just picking on marijuana. I think there are lots of slippery slopes with almost everything.

Paul says in 1 Corinthians 6:12, all things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient. All things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. And so, when you think about being under the power of any, that doesn’t give alcohol free pass if you’re using alcohol and you’re brought under the power of that or you’re not doing that to the glory of God or you’re not respecting your weaker brother, then all of a sudden alcohol is not okay either.

Yeah, I think you’re raising some really profound questions that we need to be thinking about all kinds of substances. So, the reason that marijuana is the topic now is because this is the topic that seems to be more in front of us right now. Yeah. And I do think that when you look at portrayals in the media, we’re seeing generally more of the positive or more of this is not harmful, which gives me great pause because of the things that we’ve mentioned in this podcast.

But my concern is when we look at something like marijuana, we’re just looking at the potential benefits, but not seeing what some of the long-term consequences can be. Marijuana is a gateway drug to harder, more detrimental things. So, the common thought is that marijuana tends to open up other opportunities not because of the marijuana itself per se but that people who use marijuana generally will use other substances. If you’re smoking marijuana with other marijuana smokers, you’re going to have an increased chance of being exposed to other substances by mere exposure.

I will more likely use the substance than if I wasn’t using marijuana in the first place. That really makes a lot of sense. Now I do want to ask you. These are some of the feelings that I’ve gotten out of this conversation. One is we can expect, because of its growing acceptance, a glowing sales pitch for marijuana.

But what I’ve heard from you is the medical world, and this would be secular as well as Christian, the medical world is hesitant on the topic. Is that true? When you look at the actual organizations, they are asking for things to slow down and let the research occur. I think there is great potential for CBD, but people have to realize that CBD and THC are not the same.

So, that leads to my next question. What are your recommendations? Short and sweet. Sum up what your thought is. So, in short, I think that CBD has some great potential benefits and I’m excited to see what we can find from it. And there are definitely a lot of case studies that show this has been very helpful for seizures.

This has been very helpful for pain. So let the research run, let the research find that out and see in controlled settings like we do with every other medication. Where it is helpful and where it is not. With the recreational point, I am just concerned that we’re going to have a lot of unattended consequences that may not be seen until it’s too late.

So, for listeners out there, I would strongly caution them against THC. And when it comes to CBD, I would ask them to wait until we have more data. Wait until we have more information to show where it can or cannot be helpful. And I think that data will come on the heels of the opiate crisis. Where we were prescribing way too many opiates, people are going to understand we need alternatives which would include physical therapy and perhaps CBD. And if CBD is helpful, I think that it will find its way into doctor’s offices to provide pain relief for people. Okay, and now sum up THC recreational. What in brief are your comments? So, for those who consider themselves Christians, I would say this is not allowed by the Bible.

I would stay away from it and that would be my opinion for those who are not Christians under the age of 25. I would say by smoking that you are gambling that you can increase your chance of developing schizophrenia. That also goes with those with a personal or family history of psychiatric conditions specifically psychosis for those over 25 who are not Christians.

I would warn them with marijuana just like any other substances out there that by using these substances you are putting yourself at risk for addiction and you’re putting yourself at risk of them blunting your ability to grow in your maturity. And you’re risking the point of having a dependency upon which you are putting your body at a physical risk and mental risk for health. I recommend against it.

I think those comments are very succinct. I think they’re very helpful. Thank you, Aaron, very much. Appreciate as always having you on. No problem. Thank you.