Music Therapy Podcast Episode

Greetings, everyone. This is Matt Kaufman, host and producer of the Breaking Bread podcast. I’m so glad for you to be along, and I’m very excited for the content that I have for you in this podcast. I’m less than satisfied with the audio. I want to acknowledge that up front and ask for your forgiveness as I ran into some technical difficulties while creating this podcast, but I do believe if you can overlook some of the audio you will be blessed by this podcast. 

Thanks for being on. 

I was interning right after school at the VA in Danville. And I was working with a veteran who was 99. He had served in World War II. And he had really bad PTSD and nightmares. And so, he was telling me that the intern before me was working with him also. And they wrote a song together about his experiences and about his nightmares. 

He had a recurring nightmare of a memory that had happened back when he was in the service. And so, they wrote a song about that memory. And after she wrote that song and after they would sing it together, his nightmares stopped. And he attested to me that he did not have those nightmares anymore. 

And he was over the moon about it. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I’m Matt Kaufman. Excellent to have everyone. with us. I’ve got two guests here with me. One needs little introduction, Isaac Funk. Welcome today, Isaac, and Nick Lanz. 

Nick, welcome. Great to have you in the office today. Thank you. It’s great to be here. Nick Lanz came and shared with our staff a couple months back about the work he does in music therapy. And it was really intriguing. Isaac, you’re a music guy. Super intriguing and it was out of a little bit of an effort that we have here as a staff to just have a good wherewithal about therapy about mental health, relational health, emotional health, that’s an option that’s out there for people. 

And then it really struck me. I think we have this beautiful overlap with music, right? One as Apostolic Christians, we kind of do music. So, Nick, as you shared, I was thinking, man, this is really something to tap into, right? We grow up listening to music and making music. 

And so that was one aspect. And then you just have the Christian tradition of music making, which we could pontificate about for a long time, that the Christian religion is one religion that really does music. Like that is knit into the framework of a human being. And so that it would bring emotional and mental and relational health. 

Nick, introduce yourself. Tell us where you hail from. Tell us what you’re doing. And tell us what you’re studying and now practicing as it regards therapy. So I am from Ohio, born and raised in Akron went to the Rittman Church growing up. And my music background goes all the way back to, I think I was five, almost six, I asked my parents for a trumpet for Christmas. 

And they thought I meant a toy trumpet and they said they bought me a toy trumpet. Like, no, I wanted a real trumpet. I was five. Yeah. He opened it and cried. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, what is this? So. Yeah, that was a long time ago. Vague memories. 

So, they took me to this music store, and the guy was like, if he can blow it, he can play, he can learn. And so, I started taking lessons around 6 years old on trumpet. Played trumpet for close to 20 years. I quit soon after I got married, which is kind of sad, but I just didn’t have time for it anymore. 

Natalie didn’t make you quit? No, she not. I will say that when I got engaged, my music grades deteriorated significantly. So, I will say, I love you honey, but yes, so since I dropped her name, you can introduce your wife too. Oh yes, so I my wife is Natalie, she also is from Ohio, grew up in Smithville. She’s a Maibach.  

So, the trumpet career ended at marriage. Somewhere along the way, I want to say I was maybe 10 or 11. I started teaching myself piano. Learned piano. Took lessons for a couple years. My instructor was also my trumpet instructor. 

And she was a great trumpet instructor, but I did not like her as a piano instructor. So, I stopped taking lessons and just kind of taught myself. And if I found a song that I liked, I learned it. Like Maple Leaf Rag. Yeah. That was one of the first songs I learned. My dad used to play Maple Leaf Rag. 

Oh, that’s such fun. That was, yeah. It’s a fantastic song for gatherings. It’s a great way to get people up and going. So, I did piano for Rag and Jazz. Was that a genre that you gravitated toward or it’s just super fun. It was actually, not something I particularly liked at the time. I learned Maple Leaf Rag and the Entertainer, and then I had a phase where I had this big book of rags, and I would try and learn but I never got into it much after that. So, it was really just those two. And so I got into playing more calming type of music. 

I learned that and then when I got into college, I actually started training classically. So, I had trained with a professor of piano and then got to get into classical music more and learn some Beethoven and some Chopin, some good romantic style pieces, which I loved. So yeah, piano, guitar, and trumpet are my three big ones that I like. I sang all the way through just being in church. 

And then when I got into college, I was in choir for, almost all the way through my college, undergraduate, and graduate years. And so, I learned to sing decently well. Which is great because piano, guitar, and voice are the three big instruments that I use. I think your experience with music, even as I hear that, is similar to all of ours. 

We enjoy it. It’s a lot of fun. There is an enjoyment factor. But at some point, you came to understand that there is actually a mental health, emotional health, relational health benefit that music brings. I mean, that’s what music therapy has to offer. Am I right? Sure. Exactly. When did that aha happen? That happened in, I think it was my junior year of music therapy. 

I was working by myself at Sherwin Williams, which is a paint store. It was Memorial Day or something and I always used to bring my nice Bose speaker that I bought for Christmas. And I would bring that in and play loud music and so I happened to be working by myself and I was listening to the Jurassic Park theme song. 

Great trumpet. Yes, listen to John Williams, everyone who’s listening, he’s a fantastic composer and he writes a lot of great soundtracks for movies. But I was listening to that Jurassic Park theme song, and I had it turned up really loud and my spirit soared and it was an emotional response that I’d never had before or at least had never taken the time to process through before. 

That’s when I kind of realized just the emotional response you can get from music and how it can affect your emotions and I wanted to be able to do that for, for other people. So, if you were to synthesize what music therapy does, what would you say? Well, to put in a very basic phrase that a professor told me once is, music therapy uses music to accomplish non-musical goals. 

So those goals are very broad. You can use it for premature infants in the NICU. neonatal intensive care unit, all the way up into hospice and palliative care. So, you can use it for a wide range of populations. So, give us some tangible, non-musical goals therapy would address. Sure. We’ll start with mental health since that’s where I work in now. 

So, for mental health, a lot of what I focus on is just developing healthy coping skills. So, a simple goal might be to develop a healthy coping skill, and maybe I’m going to teach this patient guitar to help him do that. Like, okay, whenever you’re feeling anxious, whenever you’re starting to feel angry, I want you to go to your guitar and play a little something and see if that helps calm you down. 

Okay? If we’re working with older adults who maybe are in the stages of dementia, it might just be memory recall. So, if I have someone who’s 85 years old, for example, maybe we’ll play some Dean Martin or Frank Sinatra or Fred Astaire. And be like, okay, so do you remember this song. 

So can you tell me about what you did when you listened to this song back when you were a child or something like, well, I was walking down the street with my friend window shopping like, you’re 85 years old and you can barely remember what you had for breakfast. You know what I mean? 

But we sang in nursing homes. Something that we’ve all done. And music connects with a person who has very little short term memory. Yes. And so, you’re using music really to reverberate within that person’s soul and memory in ways that cannot be accessed otherwise. 

Sure, absolutely. Well, Nick, I would have to say that maybe David in the Bible is a hero of yours. Yeah, very much so. I actually just read the chapter in Samuel where he started playing the harp for Saul and the evil spirit left him. Yeah that’s definitely David. I resonate with David a lot, and especially his use of music, but also the emotional roller coasters that he goes through, and then the songs that come from that, I can relate to that. 

Speak to genre. I think that’s another fascinating thing with music, right? We have a song for the glad, we have a song for the sad. Isn’t it amazing? Oh yeah. We have a song for the hopeful, we have a song for the distressed. There’s something there, I’m sure you thought a lot about that. 

Yes, it’s very interesting. Something I learned in school is if I have a patient who’s depressed or if you have someone who’s depressed, playing depressing music can improve the mood. Usually, it’s just because the person listening to this sad song is like, ah, here’s someone else who gets it. 

And especially in mental health, and I’m sure you can testify to this, but there’s a lot to be said for just sitting with someone in the spot that they’re at. And so, the fact that there are so many different moods of music is fantastic for mental health because you can find so much in the lyrics or just in the music of the song. It’s like, okay, you’re feeling depressed, here let’s just sit and listen to this and you can be like, ah, this is someone who knows what I’m going through I can relate to this, and it brings more of a sense of belonging. And the same thing says something when you’re happy. What are you connected? Let’s start right? 

 Stop there because I think this concept of dark music and a person in a dark place in dark music. Fill that space out a little bit. What you’re listening for. How you would evaluate time with that person to be meaningful with that genre. 

And do you leave them there in that genre as well? I’m just kind of curious to see a larger arc. Sure. Yes, so you definitely don’t want to stay in that spot. You also don’t want to try and push them out of that spot if they don’t want to be out of there yet. It’s an interesting balance. 

In my limited experience, I’ve found that they just know that you’re there to be with them in that depressing time. Once they know you care, they’re a little more willing to listen to you. Okay, how can we bring you up out of this? But you first have to let them know that you’re willing to sit with them. 

What is the tangible value that the music is playing in that setting? You, that person, and then there’s this third person music. Beethoven’s had something along the lines of music that speaks the words that the human soul cannot convey. Something like that. And so, it allows the person to express something that they may not even have the words to express how they’re feeling. 

They can just point to this song like this is how I’m feeling. Yeah. So, there is repair without conversation. Yes. Which is interesting. Yes. Isaac, what do you think? Yeah, well, and I find this all really fascinating, the way that music seems to be a cultural norm across all cultures, or a cultural universal, that’s the term. 

So, you’ll find it in all these different peoples, because we need it as humans. It’s just so innate in us to express something beyond just verbal expression. And so, having music available as a tool to say what we can’t say, or to deepen what we do say, I think is just part of the way that God’s designed it. 

There’s something deeper than the words. Yes. I’ve got a couple of children that take in a lot of music, and at times I do ask, hey, let’s listen together. Well, what do you want to listen to, Dad? Whatever you’re listening to is what I want to listen to, you know? And I find that they often are not completely honest with playing what they’re listening to because there is a sense of, I don’t know, perhaps they think I’m going to place a lot of judgment on that. 

But I also think there’s some vulnerability there. You know, and so they’ll circle up a safe song. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. But what I’m hearing you say, Nick, is to really get in the raw moment. Like, no, let’s listen to the heart that you’re listening to. Yes. 

And allow that to be the voice that you can find in this moment, I think, is a really beautiful thing. Speak to that larger arc. As you work with that person, what would you like to see long term? That’s a good question. It’s a bit of a cop out answer, but it kind of depends on what their goal is, I would say. 

If it was someone who was depressed, and my goal was just to maybe alleviate some depressive symptoms. Like, that’s not going to cure it, obviously. To alleviate some depressive symptoms, but maybe I would see them focusing maybe their playlist. I would see more of a positive turn in the playlist, the things they listen to. 

Because music does affect your emotions. You can be happy. Listen to some depressive music and start feeling sad, and vice versa. So, if they’re listening to depressive music all the time, or dark music all the time when they first come in, maybe that would be something we could change. Okay, are you listening to more positive music? 

Are you telling yourself more positive things during the day? That would be something I would be wanting to look for. We serve up music to ourselves in ways that it’s unimaginable to previous generations, right? What does it look like to do that well really, I think, is an important takeaway, right? It’s a very good takeaway. 

That’s actually something I do with clients, too. I help them make playlists for different moods. Yeah. And that’s a simple exercise you can do, but it gets them thinking. Like, okay, when I’m feeling this way, what do I, what do I turn to? Or what do I want to listen to? What do I want to turn to? Yeah, because it’s making a well-rounded playlist or an effective playlist a healthy music diet. 

You want to get from all the music groups. You don’t want just all dark music. You don’t also want just all happy music. That can be a little surface. What else is interesting about that is, I would assume that some of the songs that people would choose to be on a happy playlist or whatever, may not even be particularly happy songs in themselves, but are associated with happy times of their life. 

Or those memories that you were talking about earlier, like, oh, I remember working with my dad in the shop or something, or whatever it was, and we had this song playing in the background. It doesn’t even necessarily matter what that song is about, or even what it sounds like, other than that it’s triggering you. 

It’s triggering emotion. It’s positive. Exactly. Which I think is a really interesting way to view music. Like there’s a lot of things in our spiritual walk and walk of discipleship to Jesus that are ends in themselves that can also be means to an end. And I feel like music therapy is taking music, which in itself could be an end, like it’s sometimes just our response to music, but it can also be used as a tool that God has given us to direct our attention, our affections, our emotions, all of that. So, I think it’s really powerful. Yeah, absolutely.  

All right, Nick, if we have you on and just gab the whole time, I think we would have done a disservice to music therapy. Let’s choose something like anxiety. Sure. An anxious person. What might you encourage them to listen to? Can we listen to it now? And can you tell us what we should be listening to? Because I think there is a skill set involved. And I think that’s one of the services you can provide. Sure, absolutely. 

So, I do have a song picked out and it’s of the classical nature. What is this piece? This is Gymnopedie No. 1 by Erik Satie, if anyone’s curious. And it’s just a piano piece. And if you listen, it has this very steady tempo in threes, so it kind of has this swinging feel to it. 

And this can be a great song to align your breathing with. So, you just breathe in for 3, breathe out for 3, or try and breathe out for 6 if you can. And this would be something calming. Yes. And it’s relatively simple. So, like you only have the one melody line in the right hand, the higher part and you kind of have this simple cadence in the left hand. And does it help a person focus then? It helps focus. Usually what I’ve used this for is breathing exercises. Okay. Because it’s a good steady tempo and you can tune your breathing to it.  

You give them something to focus on, it helps you practice some mindfulness. Like, how am I actually breathing? Which can usually help calm a person down. That’s good. Yeah. So, for someone who had anxiety, I would maybe do something like that. Also, if it was someone with anxiety, I love songwriting with them. I had a client who had a lot of anxiety, but she also loved to write poems and journal. 

So, I’m terrible at writing lyrics. And she was very good at it, but she did not have the musical side. So, I took a couple of her poems, and we made a song with it. So, I just put her words to music and gave her some pointers on how to sing. And so, we had a little recording session and had some piano and I think we had a guitar in there. And I added some drums. So, she had a full song, so we recorded it, and I gave it to her at the end. And she had this song to take with her about the anxious thoughts she was dealing with. And she could sing it to herself, and it was very powerful for her. And it’s a great way to take a lot of the muck that people deal with and make something beautiful out of it. 

So much of what we deal with is lodged inside of our hearts and our minds, right? Sure. Yeah. And really what I see in that example is you get it out. Yes. You make something out of it. And then you’re able to have a different relationship, I would suppose, with that thing. Yeah. 

Different perspective on it, for sure. Yeah. You see it differently. You can process it differently. My background is primarily in choral music. Sure. It’s a very communal experience of music. And I’m wondering, have you been able to use a communal setting in music therapy to help achieve some of these goals? 

That’s a good question. The most common thing that I’ve done is just like group sing alongs. Especially in the behavioral health setting I work in it can be kind of hard to have it all maybe organized. But if I find a song that the majority of people like, can listen to or like to listen to and connect with and you get the right personalities of people together and they’ll be singing together. 

A couple weeks ago I had a conga line going on that I did not start. They were doing this so go for it. And so, it just depends on the population I’m working with that day. But yeah, so we will do this thing, I’ll just pull out my speaker and we’ll play some music and get something going. 

What is your premonition on the human health of that collective effort of singing? Yeah. Well, so I just think upon my own experience, being some of the most enjoyable groups to be around were the ones I was singing with. And it’s a great way to build relationships with each other. And then there’s also been studies done about the syncing of heartbeats and things within a choir as they rehearse together and perform together. That level of connection is really interesting. 

I think some of it has to do probably with the breathing aspect of it. It’s a very physical activity, but you’re also all locked in together on a common goal but performing different things to meet that. You know when you have harmonies and I think there’s a listening for each other. Yeah, the collaborative aspect of all of that seems really community building, which just seems like a really healthy thing on so many levels. Well, okay. And then we take a communal emotional need, which we have those, don’t we? We are collectively down, or we are collectively up. We’re collectively glad or we are collectively sad very often, right? 

Because we live together and that’s community. And what I hear you saying, Isaac, is there is a mechanism by which we can heal together. Yeah. God has given a gift to humanity to experience physical, emotional, mental, you know, all of this, and spiritual reality through an expressive art. Through the means of music. And there are other ways too, but this is just one of those ways that he allows us to do that and the communal aspect of it, I think, is really powerful and something that we get to experience regularly. Our faith tradition provides a really healthy backdrop just to our communal walks of faith. 

Whether we see ourselves as a singer or not, we sing regularly and quite a lot and taking that music and it’s something that’s so deeply personal. I think of singing in particular. You can’t do much more harm to someone than to tell them that they can’t sing at a young age. 

But it really is a deeply personal thing for people to have a voice and to let that voice be expressed in a community environment and in the community of faith that we have where we invite all people to make the joyful noise as we read. I think that’s a really powerful setting that we give people. We let them step out in exposure like that. And to be part of a group. With one of the most unique personal parts about them, which is their voice. That’s actually a very good point, Isaac. Singing is a very vulnerable act that music making models. Something that’s really healthy for us as individuals, and that is to be vulnerable. 

That is to really say and express love to God outward and out loud. I would say it’s necessary. That’s necessary. We need to do that. And music is really a training ground and helps us with that human endeavor in a really beautiful way. Nick, what would you say would be the first lift and helping people access music in a healthy way? 

I would say just, if you’re willing to take some time, try different styles of music and see where your emotions go with them. Listen to classical music for sure. Chopin or Liszt, anything like that is really good. Just pay attention to where your emotions go while you’re listening. If your emotions go nowhere, that’s fine. 

It’s going to affect people differently. But just be aware. Where does your mind go when you’re listening to a certain piece of music? Well, there’s a way you’re calling us to is an attention. Yes, an intention to ourselves when I listen to music I’m attentive to the music, but you’re calling us to an intention to ourself to yourself. 

Yes, music, which I think is probably the advice we need to hear right now. Thank you That’s helpful Thanks Nick, I really appreciate it. It’s my genuine pleasure. And to our listeners I hope that this could be helpful. God bless you as you take in the gift that he has given you by way of music.