Parenting Teens Podcast Episodes

Part 1

The ideal way the conversation goes in my world is something like this. Help me understand what you were thinking or feeling at that moment, and then when they explain it to you, I really try to understand it to the point where I can say to them, sincerely and honestly, I think I get it now. I think I understand where you’re coming from. 

Welcome friends to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Great. I’ve got two folks on call here today. Kathy Knochel is a counselor for us here at ACCFS and Jeff Waibel. Jeff hails from Leo, Indiana. Kathy, we’ve introduced you to the crowd here not too long back. 

Great to have you back on. It’s good to be here. Yeah, Jeff, this is your first time around here on Breaking Bread. I’d love it if you just introduce yourself a little bit, the role you play there at the ministry. Yeah, so 19 years ago, I came to work here at Gateway Woods as a counselor. I was fresh out of graduate school, social work, master’s degree, doing clinical social work stuff here. 

I was a therapist here at Gateway Woods for about eight to nine years, mostly working with teenagers, also doing family counseling, group therapy, various other things. And at some point, there, I took on more of a leadership role with the other counselors and therapists here at Gateway Woods. And ever since then, I have been in leadership of one form or another in our residential program here on our Leo campus that if you’ve ever been out for the auction, you’ve been on our campus. So, you know where that all is. That’s my background and many, I think, can picture that.  

So, thanks for being on. And the key word you mentioned was teenagers working with youth. And that’s exactly the topic that we want to tackle here in this conversation. You know, I mentioned Kathy, you’ve been introduced, but let’s just say a little bit, your niche in your previous job was working really in schools with teens if I’m correct.  

Yes. So, I worked in outpatient settings with teens. I did a lot of therapy services with teens with a variety of needs. And then also I worked directly with them through a school system, more like in a crisis role. Okay. And so, we really want to talk about teenagers and caring for teenagers and specifically the troubled teenager. 

And Jeff, for all of your glowing resume you didn’t mention that you’ve got children of your own and they give us an education. You know, let me just start with this little anecdote. My wife and I were talking to a mother at church, a mother of four boys and she says, you know that parenting booklet and we say, yeah, she says I’m fanning myself with it. And I know exactly what she means with a couple of teenagers myself and some soon to be. If we couldn’t laugh, we’d cry. Yeah, and I’d like both of you to help us understand the teenager because I think we need to start there. What do we need to know, as it regards development, to help us understand this teenager? 

Yeah, it’s a great question. I would say the very first thing that anybody should do if they want to try to understand a teenager that they happen to live with, is to remember that you too are once a teenager and try to think back to those days. My wife has this quote that she got out of a book. We’re reading parenting books, just like everybody else. 

She got this quote out of a book and the book said, the only thing harder than being the mother of a teenage girl is being a teenage girl. And so, I think it’s important to try to remember some of those days. I would say that’s step one. And that brings a level of empathy. Yeah, absolutely. To help understand. 

Kathy, what can you tell us about teenagers that’s good for us to know? Absolutely. What Jeff had said about just remembering that is really important. And then I would just say, one of the biggest things to remember is that there just is a lot going on inside of a teenager. Their brains are still developing. 

There are a lot of hormonal changes going on. And for the most part, the behaviors and things that they’re communicating is coming from a place of them going from a place of complete dependence on their parents to really trying to gain control and independence over their life. I think that’s really excellent to think about developmentally where they’re at. 

I want to zero in, Kathy, on this behavior. Because behavior is the loudest thing, I think, that often we’re dealing with our children. As if to say everything would be okay if the behaviors were different. Give us a framework to think through what we’re seeing with our teenager, the actions, their behavior, their antics. 

Is it just that? Is there behavior to be corrected or is there something deeper? What I have noticed just from the different teams I have worked with; the biggest thing is every behavior that’s coming across is communicating some kind of need that’s there. And so, they may not be able to say, you know, mom and dad, I’d feel like you’re not paying enough attention to me, but they will show that to you by the actions and just that in different ways. 

So, I think for parents to be able to understand that by trying to listen more to the words than the actions that are coming, you really learn a lot of what’s trying to be communicated. And that’s really difficult when the action is so loud. I can hardly even see through it or listen to the action, but what you’re saying there, I think Kathy is a great deal of help. 

Jeff. Yeah. So, I would say every single action that a teenager does makes logical sense to them. This is something that we do not identify with as adults, as parents, where we see them doing something and we’re like, that was not a wise decision. And it’s illogical to us. It’s like, what were you thinking? 

What were you doing? Well, they were thinking and what they came up with ended up what they did. And it made perfect sense to them. Maybe it doesn’t make sense to them as much now that they think back on it, but at the time it did. So sometimes we just need to drive down into those, those things. What were you thinking at that moment? 

Kathy, is that some of the conversation that you have? Yes, absolutely. Just like Jeff had said, it makes perfect sense to them. And teens don’t have the experience that we as adults do or necessarily the perspective. And so being able to help them identify the different thoughts that were going on leading up to the event, the different feelings that they were feeling and really trying to better understand that from all angles. 

And sometimes it’s about hearing them. Get through the piece of saying the things that don’t make a lot of sense like telling parents you don’t love me. You never let me do these things. Whatever those things that are coming across. Sometimes those words just help drive down a little bit deeper into what’s going on. I really like that and really, we’ve kind of now painted two different things to consider as parents or as Sunday school teachers or as grandparents whoever interacts with these young folks. One is finding that logical process that Jeff said is there and uncovering it through inquiry. 

And the other one is how to sit in that moment with an appropriate reaction. Do you see how I see these two separate battles? Yeah. Because I see within me is rising up a response to the accusation that you don’t love me. But I need to probably let that go at some level. So anyway, I would love to keep filling these two spaces out. 

One is the mechanics of how do I navigate myself in this moment? And the other one is the skillset of uncovering what it is they’re communicating. Does that make sense? Yeah, for sure. So, I’ve had hundreds, if not thousands of these conversations over the years with teenagers, some of whom live in my house, some of whom I’ve had the privilege of working with here at Gateway. 

And there are ways to dive into those types of things. I would say the tricky business here is that every person is different. And so, there is no one size fits all magic golden question that if I just ask this question, I’ll get the response that I’m really looking for. You’ve got to know your child. You have to know your kid that you’re working with. 

Some of them, you could ask direct questions and some of them, you just can’t. There are some of them who all you have to do is get them alone. And they’ll spill their guts. Some of them already feel guilty and want to talk about it. And some of them are masterful at the one-word answer. Like no. Yes. Can I go now? 

You know, just those types of things. So, you have to know the personality of your child. And so sometimes you can use humor, sometimes you can use direct questioning. Sometimes it’s more helpful to text them. I mean, as crazy as that sounds and as maybe in their world. Yeah. And as outside of our comfort zone as that might be. 

Sometimes that’s the right approach. I think what’s crucial though, is as you ask them questions, you listen with an open mind. The ideal way the conversation goes in my world is something like this. Help me understand what you were thinking and feeling at that moment. And then when they explain it to you, I really try to understand it to the point where I can say to them, sincerely, honestly, I think I get it now. 

I think I understand where you’re coming from. And then the next part of the conversation is, can you understand what it looked like from my perspective? You know, trying to get there. So, what I hear with that, Jeff, is that the thinking feeling question is really first, not about you correcting their thinking and feeling, as much as for you to understand their thinking and feeling. 

I think that’s ideal. And then, you didn’t even move to correcting that thinking and feeling in the second part. The second part was, here was my thinking and feeling based on your behavior. Trying to reciprocate that empathy. Is that right? Yeah. Okay. So, I’ve launched into correction way too early. I’m learning here in this conversation. Yeah, I would say so and we’re glad we could help correct that for you. 

I think the benefit of waiting, too, is a double benefit for you to be able to know how you want to respond as the parent or just the adult in the situation, and it also just gives the teen time to calm down and reflect. Jeff had said earlier, sometimes it seems illogical what they’re saying and doing, and at times, teenagers are able to come to the point of saying, yes, this was an overreaction. 

But in the moment, it’s very unlikely they’re going to be able to see all of the different perspectives in it. I realized, I learned pretty early in my teaching career, working with young people, that I could put a young person in a corner. It was a no-win situation for them, and it was always with tragic results. 

If I put them in a place, for example, that would demean them in front of their peers, they would sooner be expelled. So, there’s a wherewithal too about the time and the places you mentioned how to do it and doing it in a way that there’s some sort of safety. Such a great point. There’s a guy who works here at Gateway Woods who says, always give a person a corner to retreat to in any conversation, give them a corner to retreat to. Don’t chase them down so hard that they feel like they have to fight. 

They have to get into it with you. I, by the way, am not good at that. Let me say it better. This will be the first thing I repent of during this podcast. The first of more, the first of many. I am good at that with other people’s kids. I am less good at that with my own kids. Yeah, I will agree. I feel like I’m a much better parent to other people’s kids. 

Why? And one reason I think Jeff is, I panic. Much sooner with my own. Sure. And there’s never been a moment in my life that panicking has really brought about good gains. And in parenting, it has not. Oh, my goodness. So, Kathy will correct everything I say here. But I think there’s always a whole bunch of things that kind of play into this. 

First of all, we do share some genetics with them. And so, at some level we see ourselves in their behavior and that panics us because oh, my goodness. And maybe this isn’t even at the conscious level. Maybe some of it is subconscious, but we see something in them that we also recognize in ourselves. 

And we’re like, oh no, I tried so hard to keep them from going down that road. And here they go. So, I think that’s at least part of it is we share some genetic code with them. I think part of it is we have been harping on this for weeks, if not months, if not years, and surely, they should know it by now. 

And so, we get exasperated in that way. What don’t you understand about this? We’ve talked about it so many times. So just some of that frustration leaks through. Well, Kathy, you’ve had the opportunity to come alongside parents and you’ve made a career of it, right? So, both you and Jeff have, there is a value in other people coming alongside the parenting of a teen. Yes. Yes, definitely. And I would say, too, just to add on to what Jeff had said, I actually agree with everything you said there, Jeff, but I would say that as far as coming alongside, what I have had the privilege of doing is working with parents to remind them that their brain is under construction, right? 

And construction zones are messy all the time. And so that is the same thing that’s going on with the behaviors and things that they’re doing. And so, yeah, I think coming alongside them for support and also getting support from other parents and their peer group is really important. I want to come back to what’s under construction, Kathy, because I think that’s key. 

So, we’re going to come back to that, but I want to button up a little bit, this messy situation of parents. There’s a lot of parents with a great deal of regret. I know why they did that. Yeah. Because I’ve left that go. And I’m not sure at 17 I can do anything now. That’s a regret. Or, that disciplinary action was clear out of line. 

I regret that. We all have regrets. But it’s one thing to have regrets with my career and with how I spent my money. It’s another thing to have regrets when it comes to my children. The stakes are so high. Yeah. The stakes are so high. Speak to parents, Jeff, that have a great deal of regret right now. And they’re wondering what the future looks like. 

So maybe my answer will build on something that Kathy was saying earlier, but my favorite parenting analogy, especially for the teenage years, is that of an ice rink. And this is not original to me. I found this somewhere. So, this is shamelessly stealing somebody else’s analogy. So that’s the second thing I’ll repent for. 

Well, you admitted it. So yeah, so think about, I don’t know if you ice skate, but think about your first time stepping onto an ice rink with skates, basically you strap knives to your feet and then you step on the slipperiest surface on earth. So, somebody tells you it’s a good idea. It seemed like a good idea at the time. 

So, you step onto it and you go down. And that teaches you something like, okay, I have got to get some support. So, you find the nearest wall and you pull yourself up and for the next half hour, you are essentially hugging the wall while you skate. And then every once in a while, you let go of the wall for just a minute. 

Find yourself in trouble, grab the wall. And then after a half hour of that, you might let go for a little bit longer time. After a while, you get so adventurous that you actually skate away from the wall only to find yourself in trouble. You’ve figured out how to skate, but you haven’t figured out how to stop. 

And so, you go headlong into the wall, and you just hit the wall as hard as you can imagine. Okay. In this analogy, the skater is your child and you’re the wall. And so, I think what parenting is, is this exercise of being there and holding steady and being a touch point for kids who are desperately trying to learn how to skate. 

So, they’re going to do things that are unwise. They’re going to have some falls. Be there so that they can get back up. They’re going to go away from you and that’s going to feel scary to you and it’s going to feel challenging to you and you’re going to miss them, but don’t you dare stay in their lives when they very appropriately need to learn how to skate. 

The worst thing the wall could do is insist on being there when they’re trying to learn but be there. And sometimes they’re going to come back so hard that you’re going to get banged up in the process. So, I just think so much of parenting years in the teenage years is like that. It’s this constant looping of children going away from you and then back to you and away from you and then back to you. 

Sometimes when they come back, it’s brutal. Sometimes when they leave, they push off and that can feel brutal. I just think that for me, that just explains so much. I really like that too, Jeff, and it also gives us a context for the hurt we see in our kids. Yeah. And they will. Yeah. It’s just like every skater does. 

They’ve got the bruises to show for the mastery of the game and the activity. And then our kids will have that too. And that’s part of this process of launching those kids. Let’s go now to that construction piece. You said they’re under construction. Construction zones are messy. I would like to point out a few things that they are growing in. We’ve mentioned they’re developing still. That’s too vague. They’re under construction is too vague for my simple mind. I’d like some touch points to say this is an area they’re growing in, so it’s a construction zone, and this might be how you handle that area and understand how it impacts your interactions. 

Okay. So, from a brain development standpoint, I think the thing that we typically talk about is the development of the prefrontal cortex, which is this area right in the front. That’s why we call it prefrontal. It’s right behind your temples that when you hit your head, that’s the one that’s most damaged when you hit the ice really hard. So, the development of that prefrontal cortex has a lot of implications. 

So let me just walk through where personality resides for the most part. Well, kids are still developing that. So, you’re going to see some personality changes as they continue to develop that. By the way, research suggests that the prefrontal cortex isn’t completely developed until your mid to late twenties. 

And so, this is not okay, by the time they hit the legal age of 18 or heaven forbid, 21 for certain things that they’re going to be there. That’s probably not the case. So, personalities up there that would include things like their sense of humor, which is really interesting. So, sense of humor is something that they’re continuing to develop throughout this time. 

They might find things funny that you don’t, or they might find things not funny that you think are hilarious. So that’s that never, that never happened in my house. Oh, they think my jokes are the funniest things. Oh, they love it. But perhaps the biggest implication, especially for parenting, is that’s the part of the brain where we measure risk. 

And so, they’re going to measure risk wrong at times. And so, they’re going to take risks that most of us wouldn’t take. My classic example, when I talk about this with folks here at Gateway is as a kid, I would drive motorcycles through fields and not dirt bikes because we were too dumb with no prefrontal cortex involved. 

So, we would take road bikes and motorcycles through fields, which is a very scary thing to do. Bad idea. Yeah, we would do 60 miles an hour. And as an adult, I look at that and I was like, is that person suicidal? What’s going on in their head there? No, they’re just not measuring risk quite right. And to link back to what you said previously, it logically made sense. 

Logically it made sense at the time. Yeah. And that explains a lot of conflict. When a parent addresses an issue, whether it be drug use, for example, or other risky behavior, it’s a no duh for us and it’s not for them. Yes, exactly. And this is where I’m going to cut in on today’s conversation with Kathy and Jeff. 

When we come back, we’re going to pick up right where we left off about this messy construction site and what is under construction. Thanks, each one for being with us. 

Part 2

Their brain is under construction, right? And construction zones are messy all the time. And so that is kind of the same thing that’s going on with the behaviors and things that they’re doing. Welcome back, everyone, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

I’m excited to air the second half of a conversation that I had with Kathy Knochel and Jeff Waibel on the critical topic of parenting teenagers. I’m excited about the content that is in store. Thanks for being along. More just from personality development or trying to find their identity, what we see a lot with teenagers is they’re in a stage of trying on what fits best for them. As their brain is developing, what interests they’re developing and starting to have. So that’s the other layer of the more like external changes that we see. You know, I think that’s a really helpful lens to understand, okay, my young person is working out who they are. 

When you say identity, that could be summed up in saying, who do they view themselves as? And we as parents kind of have a golden sheet for what we want that identity to be, don’t we? You know, I want them to love hunting, and I want them to love this career choice. I want them to certainly love Christ and be a believer. 

I want them to be a part of these associations. Those can come into conflict, can’t they? They just accepted them. But in the teenage years, they don’t accept them as readily, and so they’re trying to sort through that. It’s so easy for me to take that personally, especially when they say it in a rude sort of way. 

I think that makes a lot of sense. And so really what we’re filling out in this space is, I really like what you said there, Jeff, that they are becoming separate from us, which is very healthy. And so would you say that this identity formation, needs to happen, and is going to happen, and is likely going to happen with some rift. 

Yeah. Yeah, I would say it must happen. Lest you have 35-year-old kids living in your basement, it must happen. They must begin to see themselves as autonomous human beings. Like, I exist without my parents at times. They must learn how to skate without the wall. What would you say, then, for practical encouragement for parents to steward identity formation in our kids? 

Okay, so I know that it’s going on. I know that I can’t necessarily prescribe what it’s going to be. But, boy, I would like to say the right things and be the right person or the right relationship to at least facilitate this and not make it worse. What would be some of those encouragements? Well, I’ll let Kathy answer this here. I will say, Jeff just picked up his pen. He’s going to be taking some notes. Oh boy. Practically speaking, I will tell you that this is really difficult because if there’s one thing kids sometimes resist talking about with their parents, it’s those exact things that we most want them to talk about. 

Matters of faith, matters of values, matters of morality. Those are the things we most desperately want to hear what they’re going through and what they’re thinking. And those are the things that they most desperately want to keep private at this stage of life. Okay, why private? Why do they want to keep it private? 

I think there are all sorts of reasons. One, we mishandle it in other conversations. So, they bring up something that we feel is edgy or we feel is disrespectful and we jump on them with both feet. And I think they learn, okay, let’s not have that conversation ever again. So, I think sometimes it’s the way we’ve handled past situations. 

Sometimes I think their thoughts are not fully formed and they’re still trying to figure it out. They don’t want to talk about something that’s half baked, you know, kind of in their own mind. So, I think it’s that sometimes they don’t want to disappoint us. They know that this thing they’re going to say, mom and dad probably aren’t super excited about, they still love us, I think at some level, at least that’s what the books say. 

Oh, I’m so glad to hear that, Jeff. That’s the best thing that’s been said in this whole conversation. They still love me. So, I think they don’t want to hurt us unnecessarily. So, I think that’s certainly in the equation. Is there a time where we have to let certain things go? To borrow the phrase, you know, keep your eye on the ball. 

What is it? What do you see? And Kathy, I’d love to hear your outsider take. What do you see parents looking and chasing after that in your head? You’re like your eyes, not on the ball anymore. You are far afield here. So, this brings up a few different thoughts. I think down the line, what you’re talking about, Matt, is knowing what battles we are going to pick, what battles are worth fighting, what are not. 

I think the biggest thing is as parents, and this is what I would suggest to parents, is knowing what the values are that you have as a family. So, like, what things are important, what activities are important, and then I think the battles that come, you know which ones are important to pick. Like, if at the end of the day, a super neat, clean house is not a huge value, why are we fighting making the bed and having a perfectly spotless room? 

That would be my thought. But if a value is being involved in the church community and taking part in church activities, I would feel like it’s better to put in more energy there and encourage kids to attend those and take part and participate and things like that. So, I think save your energy for the battles that matter to the overall family culture and goal. 

That makes a lot of sense, Kathy, I appreciate that. I feel the need to spontaneously repent again on this issue. So, I’ll just admit, and I think it’s important to be authentic about parenting because I am not a perfect parent by any stretch, but I am not good at that. So let me suggest that there are times my child does something. 

Let’s just pick a random situation that may or may not have happened in my house in the last 24 hours. Our children get these iPads from school that they bring home. They do all their homework and all their textbooks around. Anybody who has children these days knows what I’m talking about. And we pay for these iPads either directly or indirectly, or we at least buy insurance on them or something. 

The school gets their pound of flesh out of us in one way or another. And so, when we see the iPads sitting on the floor where somebody could step on it. It’s really easy to interpret that as disrespect. Like you’re disrespecting my rules. I’ve told you a hundred times not to do that. So, we resort to, and when I say we, I mean me, this is my repentance, but I resort to lecturing said child about said iPad, which never goes well. If there’s any parenting tool that doesn’t work well and has never worked well, it’s the lecture, but of course I use it. And so, I take the iPad to their room and I launch into my lecture. I would suggest not that I did this, but I would suggest I could have gotten exactly the same amount of message across by taking a sticky note, putting it on the iPad and write on it. 

I almost stepped on this frowny face. And put it in their room, the exact same message would have gotten across. I could have saved myself some breath and some emotional upheaval. The child would have had a corner to have some dignity to retreat to. Yeah. So even things that are not our values, I think you can still communicate about those things. 

Right. I love that. That’s a great example. There are some who just are very creative with discipline and using consequences, for example, I think is one of those very creative ways to allow the natural consequence to bear itself out and carrying out the instruction to our kids. I’m thinking about the big topics, but about 95 percent of our fireworks are over little things that we’re interpreting as big things. And so, this is a parenting skill that I am still developing, which is properly sizing big and little things. I don’t feel like I’ve got that down in any way, shape, or form.  

That makes a lot of sense to me. Yeah. That we blow things out of proportion, or we don’t meet the incident with the proper proportion that it warrants. And I think that in a way too it goes under this not keeping my eye on the ball. I have become distracted and now maybe it’s preferences that I’m obsessing over or it’s my own personal image that I’m obsessing over. And these types of things take center stage instead of the development of that individual. 

Yeah, I would add on to what both of you just said there. I think it’s always good. And I can say this from my perspective, but just it’s the things that parents require from their kids that parents don’t always follow through on. So like, I think the iPad example is great from the aspect of we would have wanted the child to respond calmly if a sibling left their iPad out and so parents having to have that same emotional control that we require from our kids. Parents should be on the same standard. 

I think your teens would appreciate that. Yeah, did it just absolutely just get hot in here? Yeah, for sure. That’s great. Great point. So often I see myself just doing exactly that, Kathy, not modeling exactly what I’m asking more or less demanding my kids to do. Years and years ago, I got this great advice from an older brother in our church here in Leo. And it was essentially this. Instead of asking direct questions, create conversations that people want to join. 

So let me tell you how this looks. So, let’s take a really sensitive cultural topic of our time, such as, I don’t know, black lives matter or the LGBTQ community or something like that. And we want to impart our values to our kids on these topics and many others. You ask direct questions. They don’t feel safe. 

They don’t feel comfortable. They don’t really want to talk about it with their backward parents. And so, they choose to clam up. But what if at the dinner table, you and your wife got into a conversation about it, that was, you know, so intriguing that they couldn’t help themselves but to join into it. One of the things we do as parents and when I say we, I mean, me, one of the things that I do as parents is I over rely on the direct question where I just ask kids, what do you think about this? And some kids will respond well to that. And again, this is a personality thing. Some of them will respond well to it and they’ll tell you exactly what they think and know in certain terms. 

Others will be very political. Well, what do you think? And they’ll, you know, cause they’re figuring that out. Others will just clam up and say nothing. But if you set an environment where this conversation is going along, and they almost cannot help themselves, but be a part of it and jump in. I think that’s the ideal situation. 

That inspires me, Jeff, to build that type of environment. And actually, the word that came to me is I’m going to terribly pronounce it, but in Greek, parakaleo in the Scriptures, Paul often used that word. And I think that word is used even for the Holy Spirit, which means the Holy Spirit comes alongside us. 

And as you explain that situation, I see shoulder to shoulder interactions instead of face to face. Yeah. And that’s a fresh switch in my head because in this conversation here today, I’ve just been viewing myself nose to nose. And really what you’ve posited is this concept that we come side by side. And when you’re side by side with somebody, you’re giving them space, you’re giving them a corner to retreat to, you are honoring their individual person, you’re honoring their ideas, and I think most importantly, You are being patient with their progression. 

I think another really great thing to think about with that is Jeff had said earlier, always give them that corner to retreat to. And I think that’s important just being able to find creative ways, places, and times to have conversations with teens. And so sometimes that’s riding in the car, like to and from school or to and from practice or something like that. 

And even being able to bring it up in a creative way. I heard so and so was doing this or, you know, if the conversation doesn’t feel as personal, teens might join in. And then I think, too, a really good thing for parents to remember during that is once your teen starts talking and sharing with you, I saw on someplace recently just the sentence that says, God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason. 

And so just being able to really listen, even if you want to correct their way of thinking or talking, just being able to listen to their view on the situation. I like that. Yeah, totally. Yeah. I love that. I’ve had so many great conversations in the car because we’re not face to face, literally not face to face. 

Yeah, I think it engenders conversation, but let me say one other thing too, about creating conversations for them to join. They also have the ability to choose not to join it. But here’s the beauty of doing it the way that I’m suggesting. Even if they choose not to join the conversation, you’re still playing out your values in front of them. 

So even if it doesn’t get down to that level of what do you think and how are you processing the world right now that we’re living in, even if that doesn’t happen, they’re still seeing and hearing your values played out in the real life day to day real world situations that they’re immersed in. I love it. 

Thanks, Jeff. Thanks, Kathy, for sharing on this topic. Appreciate that. I really like a lot of really applied ideas that have been suggested in terms of giving kids space for a corner, coming alongside them, understanding that identity is in formation, keeping your eye on the ball. Asking what it is they were thinking and feeling, asking them if they want to know how you were thinking and feeling. 

Remembering that they did have a logical process to their crazy behavior. And allowing the space and the time and the patience for this maturation and this growth in our young people is really key. And I want to just put my finger on the hope that you’ve both expressed, and I would like you to close with this. 

Have you seen teens that were a mess that you thought I’m not sure this is ever going to turn out? Well, you can look at them now and there are 20 somethings and 30 somethings and Jeff maybe 40 somethings, right? And say wow, they’re in a good place.  

Yeah, I can start with that. So, my first piece of evidence of that is myself as a teenager. I remember those days with great clarity. And I remember the struggles I was going through. I remember the upside down thinking I sometimes had. I remember the arguments with my parents, with my siblings and moments when I looked at a situation, I knew what my parents would do. And I did the exact opposite thing. 

I remember those things extremely well. And yet. Here I am in my mid-forties. I won’t go into the exact age, but in my mid-forties and I would say coming out of it on the other side, my parents’ values very closely mirror my own. It’s not going to happen that way every time. Often, I think if you just hold steady. Be the loving example of Christ. Be that wall that they can keep coming back to in their twenties, in their thirties, in their forties. I think you’ll see fruit from that. I love it. Yes. I would agree a hundred percent with what Jeff has said. I’ve worked with teens who have been in a really tough, hard place, and I’ve been able to see them cross over and start to enter that adulthood in a more positive place. 

Thanks for that. Thanks for that encouragement. Thanks, each one that listened in here today and to this conversation. We are glad to have you along and trust that this conversation, as we talk about teens, these young people who mean so much to us and we have so much vested in, we’re encouraged by really the plan that God has for them and the love that he has for them. 

And even though we make mistakes, he can redeem mistakes that we’ve made. So, thanks each one for being with us. Have a good day.