Sexual & Gender Identity with Grace & Truth Podcast Episodes

To an actress, her script tells her who she is and how she should behave on the set. In a similar way, we live by a lot of different scripts. We have a script for how we behave at the grocery store, restaurant, at the kitchen table, and a church foyer. Understanding the scripts we use for our sexuality and identity goes a long way in helping us understand the space of gender and sexuality. 

Welcome, friends, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. It’s wonderful to have you along. Ted Witzig, Jr. is here in the studio with me. Good morning, Ted. Good morning, Matt. Hello. Our topic today is gender and sexuality. What’s our goals? Why don’t we set a bit of a landscape here for our goals? 

Matt, I think one of the things that we want to do as we talk about this topic, is really try to take what the Bible says and rest in its truth. But we don’t want to stop there, because historically, that’s where the Christian Church has both tried to plant its flag just on truth, but they’ve actually focused so much on truth that we’ve forgotten people. 

And because of that, the Christian Church has come off in a way that hasn’t fully taken into account God’s love for people, Jesus’ love, and so compassion is going to be a part of the discussion. Absolutely. You know what I’ve noticed? I’ve noticed this about myself, Ted. It’s easier for me to have a conviction on truth if I don’t look a person in their eyes. 

Oh, there you go. Okay? Yeah. And it’s easy for me to compromise conviction on truth. When I’m looking at a person in their eyes, isn’t that interesting? It is. That those toggle back and forth, compassion and conviction. Yeah, that’s right. And that’s the beauty of Jesus and the Word is that it holds both of those things together so beautifully. 

So, I might say that the comfort we have in Christ, in Jesus’ example, is a goal for this podcast. Absolutely. To elevate his interaction with people and to best model that. Yes. And I think the other thing is, we’re looking at this in the context of what’s going on in society right now. And there’s been a huge number of changes in the last number of years. 

And because of that, it causes some alarm among some people. It causes us to wonder what’s coming next. So, there’s a lot of change in this area. But I think also that when we understand some foundational points, principles, and some ways to think about it, it helps to settle our hearts as well. So, we’re going to provide perhaps a context for what we see in society. 

That’s right. We want to understand, help the listener understand, that some things are changing. It doesn’t mean that God is changing, it doesn’t mean that his truth is changing, or his love is changing, or the plan of salvation is changing. But it does mean that the context that we live in is rapidly changing. 

And if we’re going to be conversant in our places of community, we do have to know a few things. In order to be effective lights and witnesses today, we need to understand the signs. So, four goals. Just summarize those. Okay. Conviction. Conviction of truth. Compassion. Compassion for people. Yes. Context. 

Context of our societal communities or our society. And then finally, comfort in Christ’s example. I love it. Okay. All right. So those are our goals. I think it’s helpful as we picture our audience. Okay. Right. These topics of gender and sexuality, they’re not completely outside of our spheres of concern. 

No, I think one of the things is that while some of our listeners will find that with this topic, they don’t have much experience. With others, this is striking right at the core of what’s going on in their lives. And so, we want to be careful as we’re going through a topic like this. And so, let’s go ahead and be upfront then with our vantage point. 

Yeah. Okay. We enter the stage from a biblical worldview, making sense of what we see. Based on the words of Christ and what’s been laid out in Scripture and what the Holy Spirit instructs as best we can discern. That’s right. We recognize that people that are looking at this topic from outside of that perspective, they come from a different direction, they end up at different conclusions. 

Yeah. In the course of my personal and professional life, I’ve interacted with people across all different kinds of worldviews. And that doesn’t mean we always agree, and in fact, we don’t agree. And there’s some places that we would sharply disagree. But I think there’s a big difference between disagreeing with somebody and being rude, being disagreeable, being spiteful. 

I have people in my life that I know personally and professionally, we look at everything differently. I mean, if I were to have a guess, you’ve gained a great deal from those interactions. Yeah, I love them. And I think they love me. We talked about Jesus. What do we learn from Jesus? 

You know, what’s really amazing about Jesus is that he was completely perfect, completely holy, completely love. And, it was interesting, the people that society looked at as the most sinful were drawn to him. They literally were drawn to him. And the people who thought they were righteous, were repelled by him. 

That’s a phenomenal thought, that those individuals, and I’m going to include myself in that category, broken and felt like I could go to Jesus. I think I can talk to him about this. And all of us who have come to Christ, have come to him and talked about the deepest brokenness, most broken part of ourselves. 

Yeah, absolutely. What we need to be doing is helping people see Christ and his message. Because without the power of Christ, without the love for the Word, and the willingness to submit ourselves to the biblical worldview, no one has the power to do that. You know what? I think that is part of what compelled people to Jesus and brought people following him, right? 

So many times in the Scriptures, Jesus saw the obvious lame or physical brokenness of a person but he reaches in and fixes something much deeper. That’s exactly right. It is exactly like that. People would see here’s this lame person and then he would go up to that person and he would say your sins are forgiven. 

And they were all looking at the person’s legs, and he went right for their heart. And that’s exactly what we’re talking about. What we’re trying to do is help people see Jesus. And what you’ve really helped us see here, Ted, is when we see these issues that swirl in life and in our culture, these difficult topics of gender confusion and same sex attraction and those types of things, and this is not perhaps the lens through which we should see people. No, we should be seeing something much deeper. Yes, that’s right. We should be seeing people for the fact that they are made in the image of God, that they have souls that Jesus loves and died for and wants to redeem and wants to see them live the abundance of Christ. 

And that’s how we should see people, period, period. And I think that it’s so easy for us because we’re human. We’re all human. We see things like the socioeconomic status and the color of our skin and sexual orientation and all these political affiliations, where somebody lives, all those things. 

And we see those first and can’t get past them. And then that’s how we look at those individuals and we really need to practice seeing the world how Jesus sees it. Seeing ourselves how Jesus sees us, seeing our brothers and sisters how Jesus sees them. And what happens is that he sees souls first, and then out of that he sees the other things. 

I don’t want to say that they’re not present, or not realities, or even not important, but they are not the central. They’re secondary. Ted, as we now have brought an individual into view. Very often, Ted, when a person comes into view, you learn some things that you’ve been blinded to before that personal interaction. In fact, it was perhaps easier to hold some of the ideologies without knowing this person. Sure. There’s something really powerful in this transformation that takes place when people come into view. Yes. What are some scripts that have been rewritten in your mind as you have walked the road with God image bearers who struggle with same sex attraction. 

When you think about something like attraction, and sexual attraction, who somebody feels attracted to. For most of us, we don’t even ever think about how that develops. It just develops. Okay? So, from that perspective, and I’m going to go down the perspective of what a large portion of society today thinks about that. 

So, if somebody grows up, they start noticing that they’re attracted to the same sex. Okay? What happens is, some people say, okay. Oh, I’ve discovered this. Oh, no, I have this attraction. And that attraction means something. That attraction means that who I really am, my core identity is that. 

Okay. So, notice this. This script says that who you’re attracted to tells you what your core identity is. Okay. And that’s a very common script today. And so, the next thing that follows out of that script is if that is your core identity, the only way that you could possibly be happy is to express that identity, and then it follows that in order to be happy by expressing that identity, it has to follow that sexual behavior and relationships that are consistent with that have to be manifested, have to be lived and celebrated, or else there’s no way for you to be happy. 

Okay. So that’s a very common script that starts with an unintentional genesis, that this is something I feel. Yeah. Two, it becomes an identifier of who we are. Then the script says, if it’s an identifier, then happiness is in the fulfillment of it. That’s right. Don’t kick against that identity. 

That’s not healthy. They would say it was beyond healthy and it would hurt your happiness. Right. And then finally living that out and expressing it. And I think one thing past that is that anybody who doesn’t agree with that is anti the core of who I am. Well, so, is unfair to my person. That’s right. 

Yeah. Right? Which, let’s understand, being unfair to anybody’s person is an offense. Yeah, it feels offensive. If I am unfair to your ethnic fabric, that’s unfair. So, we can relate to this. We understand why emotions rise. Alright, so you’ve just laid out the script that’s very common here. 

Yeah, so what I want to do is lay out an alternate script, and there’s different ways that people can lay out their scripts in their life, but I would say that in a Christian script it would be different. So, let’s take that person who comes up, they’re junior high, whatever, and they’re feeling these feelings, and they go, oh man, I think that I’m attracted to the same sex. 

Okay, so what does that attraction mean? And in Christ’s script, we will be able to look at it and say, you know what? We all have aspects of our lives that don’t fall the way things are supposed to be. We all have brokenness in our life, and because every aspect of our life has been touched by the fall, not just our sexuality. You know, all of our other appetites as well. That’s why we have greed and envy and hatred and strife, right? So, all of us, and that’s not looking at that person saying, you are sick and twisted. What it’s saying is, you are touched by the fall, just like we’re all touched by the fall. 

It happens to be, and I would say, by the way, even those who are heterosexually oriented, I think that we need to say, just because we have a heterosexual orientation doesn’t mean that we haven’t been touched by the fall. In fact, we have been. I would say all of us who are heterosexual, all of our sexuality has been touched by the fall and that, when we look at things like the struggle with pornography and divorce, all those things like infidelity and adultery. 

So, this is just the fact that’s touched by the fall. We’re just going to say, yeah, it is. So, then the question is, does that attraction have to be viewed as central to your identity? And that’s where the in Christ script is different, where we say, no, actually, instead of saying, oh, my attractions are the core of who I am, like saying, because you’re envious, or I’m envious, that’s the center of who I am. 

No, I can say, no, I am in Christ, Christ is the center of who I am. Amen. And, because he’s the center of who I am, my attractions, in fact, don’t have to define me. They may describe my experience, and we are not asking somebody to not be honest about their experience. Okay? In fact, let’s use envy for a second. 

If you’re struggling with envy, my encouragement is for you to be honest about your struggle with envy. Okay? If somebody is struggling with pornography heterosexually, they need to be honest about their struggle. But what I would also say is, when they say, the core of my being, I wouldn’t want them to say, the core of my being is a struggler with pornography. 

Yeah. I want them to say, I am Christ’s, and that what I am seeking to do is to understand who I am in Christ and who I am in the body of Christ and the power that I have because of Christ to live in a way that honors him, that’s the central story of my life. And what happens is we need to separate out the attractions then they don’t have to equal identity, and they also don’t have to equal behavior. 

You’re suggesting that the Gospel has a wonderful, good news answer. Yes. And that is, Christ can come at this point of identity, and then our trajectory changes according to the likeness of Christ. That’s right. We’re not talking in this particular thing about just the looking at people dealing with same sex attraction and saying oh, this is what you have to do. We’re talking about all of us. 

We’re talking about guys designed for sexuality wasn’t laid out in fact for one people group. It was just laid out. It started in the Garden of Eden, and it got laid out. And so, we’re all supposed to be living by the sexual ethic that says God designed biological sex and gender and that sex is to be inside of a marriage. 

It’s a lifelong union between a man and a woman. I know that’s radical today. But it is the historical Christian position. And founded on Christ’s words himself. I’d like you to go there and maybe even just point out how Christ even laid that out, Ted. Sure. Could I read to you from Mark 10? Yeah. 

In Mark 10:6-9, it says this. These are Jesus’ words. But from the beginning of the creation, God made them male and female. So, the first thing he said, Jesus affirmed that right there in the beginning, people were made male and female. And where’d that come from? It came right out of Genesis. 

Right out of Genesis and right out of who God is. Yeah. Okay? Because it said, let us make man in our image. And it says male and female created he them. It came right out of the expression of the Trinity. And so there we see that gender is a divine creation. Yeah, it’s a divine creation and it’s not accidental. And what’s beautiful about it is that it takes both to show back to us the image of God. 

Okay? Jesus goes on. What does he say? He goes on to the next part. For this cause shall a man leave his father and mother and cleave to his wife. And so, what that one’s talking about is marriage. And it’s talking about how a husband and a wife are to come together, they separate from their parents, and they go into a marital union. 

So that marriage is a divine institution. And then the next, this is verse 8, and they twain, or they two, shall be one flesh. So then, they are no more twain, or two, but one flesh. And I’ll read the next verse. What therefore God hath joined together, let not man put asunder. And so, he wanted that union to be a special type of bonding enduring and enduring. 

That’s right. So that there is what we would say fidelity and so that is a lifelong union and things like infidelity and things like divorce are not his intention. I know they occur, there’s a lot that occurs, but because something occurs doesn’t mean it’s the divine intention. So, here’s an example where Jesus speaks expressively to the issues that concern us, and this issue in particular, as it concerns gender and sex and sexual attraction and those types of things.  

There’s a lot to be said and I’m sure there would be counterpoints that people would want. This particular podcast is not going to be a complete apologetic on the issue. That’s not our intention. Not today. But we do want to point to Christ’s words. 

That’s right. He speaks to it, and we could go to other places and we could have a good, robust dialogue about that. Yeah. But let’s now move on because you really posited some important concepts when you talked about scripts. And I want to go back to that Genesis concept where this attraction comes about. 

Okay. And you made the comment that it comes about and we’re not quite sure how. So, we do have an important question, I think, to settle. And that is the question, do we choose our attractions? Is that something that we choose? That’s a great question. And I would say that the answer to that is no. Even most people that are heterosexual, and so they wouldn’t even say that they chose to feel that way. 

And so, they just arrived there. I’m going to make the case that attractions don’t have to equal identity, and that doesn’t have to equal behavior. You know, we have these different parts of our identity. The question is, how big of a part do those have? Your Christian identity? It’s the central part of the pot, it’s not like a little piece over here, it’s the central part from which all the other things radiate out. 

I don’t look at myself as a counselor, I don’t look at myself and go, well, I’m a Christian over there and I’m a psychologist over here. I view my counseling work as coming out of that, my fathering out of. But now we have raised some other questions. Okay. So, another question that soon follows, if these attractions come by who knows how, the next question is, can they be changed? 

Yes. So, a couple things. First of all, this is an area that has been charged with all kinds of intensity and animosity. And I would say it this way, that historically people who have not dealt with same sex attraction or sexual orientation issues have felt like that this is a matter of time. A choice that somebody could shut off one side of their attraction and turn on the other side of the attraction. 

Just stop it. Okay? Just don’t be that, be that. And I have to say, Matt, that’s just not reality. That’s not how this works. What we want to say here is that the concept of somebody growing in their ability to walk in a manner that’s consistent with what Christ asked us to do. Oh, yes. Can we do that? 

Yes. But does that mean that somebody is going to pivot from feeling attracted over on one side and then do a 180 shift? I would say that the concept of the 180 shift, Matt, has actually hurt a lot of people because they feel like the only way they’re going to be able to be acceptable is to have a 180 shift. 

Do some people experience shifting in their sexual orientation? Some do. But it is often times much more moderate than some people wish. The question really comes down to, Ted. What’s the repair I need? Yes. Isn’t that really the question? That’s a great question, Matt, because we need Jesus, okay? 

And that’s a spiritual repair. The more we become like Christ, the more the other aspects of our life fall into the places that they need to be. You know what, Matt? I think one of the things is that we focus on this in the sense that oftentimes the thought is that somebody has to go from gay to straight or whatever. 

But you know what? Even individuals that are dealing with a heterosexual orientation, it’s not like that is the perfect place, that there is no redemption needed. We’re going to draw this episode to a close now. Christ has been made larger, people have been brought nearer, and the result is a reframing of our scripts. 

Thanks, each one for being here, and be sure to join us again when we come back to conclude this conversation. Have a good day. 

We need Jesus, okay? And that’s a spiritual repair. The more we become like Christ, the more the other aspects of our life fall into the places that they need to be. 

Welcome back everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I’m delighted to air the second part of a conversation that I had with Ted Witzig Jr. on the topic of sexuality. In our last episode, we got our minds around the what is, the why is, of this important topic, and now in this episode we’re going to move more to the now what. 

Thanks for being here. I don’t want to come across as oversimplistic, and I think it’s important for us to acknowledge the difficult road the Christ script fork is. Yeah. And if my identity can be conformed to Christ, and I have a same sex attracted experience, but I’m committed to the historic biblical view of marriage and sexual ethic, that leaves me with an end behavior of celibacy, am I right? 

Am I connecting the dots? Yeah, so there’s really a couple pathways that people have in that. And the first is, to some individuals, in order to honor Christ in this way, will maintain singleness. And one of the things that we want to do is to provide a look at singleness that is a fully devoted vocation or calling that honors the Lord. 

Can I add another characteristic? Sure. That I think is important, a fully human flourishing. Yes. And I’m adding that in there because that’s hard to swallow. That I can be fully human flourishing, in a sense, expressing the fullness of my human experience in being single. Well, I think there’s a couple things. 

There are a couple ways that both society and the Christian Church have kind of fallen into different ditches, but they’ve fallen into it. So, the Christian Church has, in some ways, taken this good thing of marriage, and they’ve held it up as the best thing. Okay, so you’re not fully developed unless you’re married. 

Okay, things are pending on family. You’re kind of on hold until then. Yes, the secular world isn’t so focused on marriage. They’re focused on sexual activity, so their view is we don’t care if you’re married or not, but if you’re not sexually active, you’re not a fully flourishing human being. So, we want to say two of the most important people in the world, our Savior Jesus and the Apostle Paul who wrote much of the New Testament, neither was married. Okay, and so Matt, are you willing to step out on a limb and say they were fully human flourishing people? Yeah, absolutely. You know what? And so, I think one of the things is we need to think about that. 

And again, a non-Christian person is going to think about this differently than we in the Christian Church here. And we need to make sure that as a church family, we are thinking about people first and foremost in their Christian identity as part of the body of Christ, and that, remember, the body of Christ is male and female, young and old, married and single. 

Okay? It’s all those. It’s young and old, married and single, male and female, and we need to make sure, well there are times to segment that, I mean there are times for the couples to get together, and the older folks to get together, and the young group to get together. We need to make sure that we are not over segmenting people, and we need to make sure that there is broad integration of those things. 

It’s one of the beautiful things about an intergenerational Body of Christ, is that in our potlucks, in the church choir, in the various committees, we have all those things and responsibilities throughout the church that appropriately uses all the people. Now, I’m going to tie this back to scripts. 

Yeah. Because it has very much to do with scripts. If there’s no script for the human flourishing life that includes the church singleness and devotion to Christ’s sexual ethic. That’s right. We put people in a very, maybe impossible place. I suppose I could be clever and say, Jesus continually rewrote scripts. 

Oh, he did, didn’t he? He did. And you know what? It got him crucified, actually. You know, because he took the script that they had, and it was so fixed that they were looking for the Messiah and missed him. Yeah. I mean, think about the script he rewrote by talking to the woman at the well. 

Absolutely. Think about the script he wrote by letting the sinful woman wash his feet at Simon’s house. Absolutely. Think about the scripts he was rewriting. His disciples come to him and say, hey, we just rebuked those guys because they weren’t following you. They were cast out, you know? 

And what did Jesus do? He rewrote their script. Yes. And I think one of the things is that what he does in each of those times notice he wasn’t violating God’s moral law. What he was doing was going, hey, guys, wait a minute. There are people here that we need to touch and reach and heal and work with. 

So, let’s cast a vision for a different way to think about singleness. Okay? Now again, we’re not trying to downgrade marriage and say that it’s bad or whatever. But we would also say that singleness and marriage are both ways to honor God, okay? And to flourish, okay? And there are various reasons that people stay single, and sometimes that’s by their choice, sometimes it’s not by their choice, and that creates its own sense of loss and hardship. 

But I will say this, Matt. For some, it’s a decision they have to make, and it’s about them feeling obedient to Christ. And we need to stand with them and honor their obedience. I am inspired by their obedience. Okay. And I would say it this way. We don’t have to figure out people’s singleness. What we need to figure out is how we can be good brothers and sisters to them. 

Okay. And how we see us all married, single, male, female, young, old, how we see that as an integrated body. Ted, I want now to place emphasis on the role the Church plays in these lives. Yes. My question would be, Let’s think about that believer, that Christian man or woman, who struggles with same sex attraction, who brings their sexual attraction into the alignment of God and his Holy Word, who denies themselves in all of these ways, putting Christ first, living a single life. 

Okay? This is a giant in faith, isn’t it? I believe so. And they need a church family because that person that I just described is not going to feel at home anywhere else. You know? Not in the LGBT community. And that is so important, Matt, you’re bringing up a really important thing, and that is that the LGBT community broadly does not look at somebody who’s trying to honor their biblical values in this way. 

They don’t look at them and say, hey, great job. They’re kind of like, hey, why are you doing that? You don’t need to live under those restrictions. You might be part of the problem. Yes. So, individuals in this place oftentimes don’t feel at home in the world, in the broader LGBT community. But then oftentimes they experience the church in a way in which they hear things that indicate that they’re not at home there either. 

So sometimes Matt. It’s through jokes, or comments that can be alienating, and we really need to be thinking about that, because you know what, this isn’t a joke, and what these individuals are experiencing is not a joke. Here’s what the LGBT community is really, really good at, is saying, you’re accepted here. 

Now, that is something that everybody’s heart desires, is to be accepted, to be loved. Now, I’m not trying to say that what they’re trying to accomplish with that is correct, or how they’re trying to accomplish it, but I want you to think about this message. The LGBT community says you are accepted here. 

When they experience Christian churches, oftentimes they have not experienced that. Yes. But I think one of the things that we offer, the Christian Church offers the real, true gospel is open for everybody. It’s open to everybody. And when John 3:16 says, for God so loved the world, he didn’t just mean for this group or that group. 

He really loves the world. And he really wants people to be reconciled to him, and that is such a beautiful message, and it’s our truth. And the church then is that community? Yeah. It is that family to receive those in Christ. Oh, yeah. Which is incredibly powerful and incredibly needful.  

And so, what it means for us as believers, if somebody has some neighbors, and it’s a gay couple living together. Be a good neighbor to them. Love them. One of the attributes of Christ that I just love so much is he never felt threatened. And here’s a man who people are out to threaten him. 

That’s right. I do feel like the secular atheist community looks at these issues of gender and sexuality as somewhat of the last nail in the coffin of Christianity in biblical ethic. It’s like, okay, that was tried. And it’s been found wanting. Now look at this. And I think the church kind of wonders the same thing. 

Yeah. And I think at the heart of it, we wonder, okay, is this going to be the last straw? Is this going to topple maybe the house of cards that faith is built on? Jesus never, never felt like things were threatened and we shouldn’t either as believers. Yeah, I think that there’s no question that how things have been going. 

There’s been a broad sea change in public opinion about this and laws about this. I would also say that we need to rest, and you know what? God’s going to take care of us. God’s going to take care of us. Yeah, are there complex situations? Yes, there are, and I don’t want to minimize that but the other thing is we can take confidence that where we are and what we are going through is not outside of the power of God to help us to be the lights in dark places that he wants us to be. 

And Ted, that’s incredibly hopeful Yeah, because if we think that the issues of 2020 are the toughest to deal with sexual questions, we’ve got another thing coming. That’s for sure. Because the next decade is going to heap on scenarios that will confound us right now. That’s right. 

We didn’t even anticipate. But Christ is not confounded by them. Christ completely sees them. Even now he sees them. He sees that the cradle of the gospel and his holy Word has got well within its grasp to handle it and that’s important for us. It is and that’s why we need to remember that whatever societal issue we’re thinking of is that we need to remember that our goal first and foremost is to keep our focus on our identity as Christ followers first, bringing everything into submission to that. 

Again, whether we’re talking about our money or our sexuality or our families or what our roles are in church, all bringing that submission to Christ. And then, doing our best to help people inside the church and outside the church to experience Christ. And by doing that, we create a caring community inside the church that helps people to thrive and flourish, to know Christ, to heal, and even to deal with the various burdens that they have. 

Yeah. And whether that’s us helping somebody who is dealing with a same sex attraction issue, or whether that’s somebody dealing with another issue. But one of the things we want to remember is that Christ asked us to see people. Ted, we really haven’t done much defining of any terms in this podcast, which is usually pretty important to do. 

For example, we’ve thrown out same sex attraction. We assumed our listeners knew what that meant. In some cases, we’ve thrown out LGBT, we’ve thrown out terms like gay, and all of these are very robust terms used in very charged settings often. And we can respond to those terms. What’s there to be learned about terminology? 

Matt, this is a challenging area because the terms are in motion. And some terms that were in favor 20 years ago have fallen out of favor today, and some have fallen out of favor and then returned to favor, you know. And so, it is really interesting because when you look at definitions, they matter. And on one hand, they’re also so much in flux that it’s hard for us to say this is exactly what this means. 

So, one of the things that I would say is we just want to try to do our best to think about the attitude you use when you say a term. Okay? And I would just say that we should not be using terms and labels in a way that is demeaning pejoratively. Okay, so that just first and foremost, remember, Jesus is talking to people. 

He’s not talking about labels. So, let’s just be careful about that. Secondly, understand that sometimes even with a term like the term gay, it is used very broadly. I can think of about five ways right now that term is used by different people in different ways. Because of that, sometimes you just need to ask people what they mean, if you’re talking to somebody, what does that mean to you? 

So that you understand if you’re talking to your neighbor or you’re talking to a son or what do you mean by it? Because some people mean by it something very much in the societal sense of pro this. And sometimes people mean it anti that. And some people are meaning I think this describes my attraction. 

Sometimes people mean, this is my identity. This is my experience. And so, it does get dicey with the terms. Yeah. I think that caution and that awareness is just helpful, Ted. I think what we need to take away from that is we need to ask questions. We need to listen. We need to realize that we just use words to try to communicate and that’s what they are. 

And better it is for me to learn a person’s story to understand what they mean by the term than to fill in all the blanks myself based on what I think that means. That’s right. Yeah. Ted, give us some practical tips. We have a listenership that wants to love on people. You mentioned the neighbors. We want to engage our neighbors. 

We want to love them like Jesus loves them. That’s right. We want to engage our families. We want to have dialogue with our children. Okay. What are some takeaways? What are some things? Okay, bear this in mind. Yes. So, the first thing is when you’re talking to another believer who is dealing with same sex attraction, the first thing that we want to do is we want them to know that they’re just loved. 

Okay, I love our church purpose, as it’s stated, to glorify God by loving as Jesus loves. And so, to help people know that they’re loved, that they are wanted, and to help them see that you see them. And I think one of the things is that we need to think about it like we would deal with any other individual, and that is that we’re talking about a process of growth. 

Our sanctification is, what do we say? It’s a lifelong process of becoming more like Christ, putting off the old and putting on the new. And you know what? We want them to be in Bible study. We want them to be a part of this, that, and activity. I think the other thing, though, is that sometimes, depending on where they are in their own development, sometimes they have been through really hard things. 

And sometimes, for example, they have had either times of ridicule, loss, or some have come from traumatic backgrounds. Not all. You know, some have really good relationships with their families, some do not. Yeah. And so, based on that, based on whatever their needs are, seeking to help them along that way. 

Yeah. The thing that most people feel is going to happen if somebody knows is that they’re going to be rejected. And I can’t tell you how many people over time have thought for sure that once they shared something with me that I was going to fall out of my chair. Yeah. And it’s been over 20 years now and I’ve not fallen out of that chair. 

Yeah. And I think that is just such a wonderful thing that we can do for one another. And go ahead. Well, I just want to accent, Ted, because you just gave us a really important thing to think about. And that is people fear rejection. Yeah, absolutely. Just to realize how brave they are to share that with you, that detail, that brokenness in their life. 

But also, for us to realize, okay, how do we help people? Yeah. And you know what? You can just ask too, hey, how can I be a good brother or sister to you? You know, I think another thing is really work to not put this in a special category in your head. One definer. The definer. Or the big one. Yeah. It just doesn’t help whether we’re talking about somebody who had an abortion in their past, somebody who deals with pornography, someone who has whatever, whatever it is. It doesn’t help them or us to keep that as a central defining feature. Because it’s not the central defining feature when Jesus looks at them. Yeah. It is not. And I think that’s exciting. What hope is there? 

Have you seen thriving believers who struggle with gender and sexual orientation? Yes. And you know what? I don’t want to minimize the struggles that people have, because they’re real struggles. But I also want to say, I can tell you that I have watched people flourish. Okay. And I’ve seen single individuals flourish. 

I’ve seen individuals who have dealt with same sex attraction, who end up being married and they’re in mixed orientation marriages. And they’re married to the opposite sex but endure same sex attraction. That’s correct. Within that marriage even. Okay. Do those marriages work? They do. They can. I don’t want to say that marriage is the cure. The whole point is that people’s paths are different, but again, number one, submitting ourselves fully to Christ and putting our sexual identity and our sexual behavior under the Lordship of Christ is really what this is about. And that’s the commonality that we can all have. 

We need to take the long view of that reconciliation and sanctification many times in our lives. Amen. Many times, with this issue that’s needed because there are so many different things at play. But I think that’s the other thing that’s so hopeful is that while we’re living in time and we see that we feel the crisis of the moment or we feel the tension of the moment or the questions of the moment, God sees the beginning and the end, and he is the one that is seeking to set all things right. 

So, our goal is to be faithful stewards in that. Yeah. He makes all things beautiful in his time. Thanks, Ted, for this. We didn’t cover every base that could be covered. A lot of things are left unsaid, but I hope to our listeners that you have found the content today to be refreshingly hopeful. Because of Christ, because of the gospel, because of the hope that exists in church and our community. 

We just trust and release this hour to God’s work and God’s purposes in your own heart and life. We would be very welcoming to questions or comments or feedback. [email protected] would be a great way to do that. Yeah. And any questions that people have or would like to see covered, perhaps we could try to address those in some way. 

Yeah. That’s great. Thank you, each one for being here. Goodbye.