Loving Life: Pre and Post Abortion Podcast

I think none of us would want to find out years down the road that our daughter did go through this or our son went through an experience like this and never felt like they could share it with us. I think that tears up my heart more than having to deal with a crisis. Welcome, friends, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

Delighted to have you along as always. I’ve got two special guests in the studio today. Rita Metz is with me and Kevin Knapp. Both of you, welcome. Thank you. The topic really is loving life pre and post abortion. Each of you do so well with this issue, and so I want to start, Rita, with you. 

Again, I’ve already announced who you are, but say a little bit about yourself and your intersection with the topic of abortion, and then Kevin, we’ll look to you. Yes, I had the opportunity to be a part of the Pregnancy Resource Center in Bloomington, Illinois. I have been a client advocate and sonographer there for about the past five years. So, say a little bit about what that means, sonographer. I think I know, but we get to have a picture inside of the women’s womb to see the actual, whatever gestation age the baby is. And even there, Rita, I see you’re really bringing both of these two beautiful people together. 

The life within the womb and the life of the mother whom you’re working with. And I look forward in this conversation to really experiencing that with you and what that looks like. Kevin, how about you? So, Deeper Still is a healing ministry designed to help the abortion wounded heart. So, I have the opportunity to be on staff as we do retreats for that ministry. 

So, Kevin, the people that you’re working with are women and men. Men are also affected by the abortion, and they have very deep-seated feelings and hurts that surround that having gone through abortions. Exactly. And they’re dealing with the aftereffects of that post abortion. That’s correct.  

And are we talking months, years, decades? In my limited experience with it, the most recent person who had had an abortion was probably six months. We have had people go through the retreats who are in their 70s. Wow. And there’s just deep-seated hurt that has never healed. Rita, you talked about Crisis Pregnancy Center pre abortion and working with a mother and a child or an embryo there. 

To Kevin, you are post abortion. And so, I’d like to set up this issue and ask for both of you to comment on it. I feel like sometimes in the pro life, pro choice tangle, we perhaps struggle with loving all of the lives involved. And it seems kind of easy to retreat to some moral high ground or maybe dissolve some of the complexity of the situation by either demonizing the mother or explaining away the embryo. For sure. And I think both of you represent such a healthy experience. I would love to hear your thoughts on that broad brushed analysis. Yeah, I would say for sure, from our experience at the center, if we focus on the mom, if we are really truly loving her, if we are listening to her, if we are coming alongside of her and educating her, if we’re connecting her to the needed supports in her life, then there’s a much greater chance of her choosing life for her baby. So, when you pour love onto her, you see her as a person to be cared for and loved. Is that what I’m hearing? Yes. Sure. I think she’s the starting point. Kevin, your thoughts on that tension? 

Yeah, I think it is easy to get caught up in a debate or a discussion and lose the reality that these are people who have made choices, and some have not made choices. Some have had choices made for them, often years or decades ago, and they still carry the scars from that. And so, we are looking at an issue, but we are looking at a person, often a mother, a grandmother, a grandfather, a father who’s trying to navigate life and who is having some very deep emotional scarring that is being brought to the surface that we have an opportunity to expose to the sacrifice that Christ has already made for them and literally to see them being freed up from that scarring. Choices they’ve made, and then you said choices that have been made for them, I think explodes our thinking and perhaps makes us uncomfortable, especially if we like to simplify this issue. 

And we recognize just by your description there that it is much more complicated than that. And I want both of you to help us see this mother. We have a tendency to stereotype, and I think we get out of underneath empathy sometimes with stereotypes. You know what I mean? And so, I want you to expand or explode our stereotypes. 

Can you do that? Sure. I would say we see a wide variety of clients at the center. But very few of them are choosing to terminate life out of the hardness of their heart. If their circumstances were different, they would choose life. We’ve seen girls who are going to lose sports scholarships, women who are raising multiple children alone and they can barely pay the bills. 

Women who are here from other countries for college or work and they’re just feeling really alone. There are young girls who’ve heard many threats from their parents of what’s going to happen if they do get pregnant. Women who are in abusive relationships. Women who fear what this is going to do to their reputation and the list can go on. 

But I would say a common theme that we see is just the lack of any support from, or no relationship with, the father of the baby. And then secondly, just the total lack of support in general. Part of our intake process with them is just sitting them down and asking, what kind of support system do you have in your life? 

And it’s not uncommon for them to say they really don’t have anyone. There’s just not a positive support person in their life. And that’s really hard for us to fathom. But it’s their reality. Rita, in these moments when you hear these difficult stories, you are a point of contact, a point of God’s love to them in this moment. 

Certainly, those stories are difficult to hear. And they deserve a response. What does love look like? I think a lot of it, Matt, is just sitting and listening to them. And so many of them will mention at the end of our meeting, you just listen to me and you’re the first person who sat and listened to my story. 

They just, again, it’s back to the fact that they really don’t have that positive support person in their life. So, somebody who will just sit and listen to their story and hear where they’re coming from. And just give them a chance to talk through that and what they’re dealing with right now. They’re coming in crisis, a lot of them, in panic mode. 

What do we do and who are we going to talk to about this? So just sitting and listening to them and then just sharing truth. Sharing truth and love and God’s love. These are hard truths to share. A lot of times they don’t want to know what abortion really is and what the procedures are. And just sharing truth about all of that information with them is something they’re not going to get probably anywhere else. 

You mentioned sometimes they don’t want to know the truth. I think sometimes we don’t want to know the truth. Rita, as you share those situations, sometimes it’s easier just not to know that those situations were the impetus of a person in crisis. Because it really presses us to love and do the difficult thing that love demands. 

You know? Yes. I would say so. And to bring it home, you’re going to find a lot of statistics if you look online, and it’s hard to find ones that aren’t biased from one side or another, but one that is pretty common is that one out of four women by the age of 45 will have had an abortion. And that’s staggering, but it also brings it home that this is not something happening out there somewhere, some place, it’s all around us, it’s in our community, it’s in our neighborhoods, it’s in our kids’ friends, it’s in our schools, it’s in our church, it’s all around us and it is affecting us. 

And it’s not something that people are going to openly talk about normally, so we’re not hearing about it. But I will tell you, it’s in our world, and it’s all around us. I appreciate that. And I asked for you to explode stereotypes, and you’re doing that, Rita. Kevin, we’re talking about loving the mother. 

Speak to loving the mother on your side of post abortion care. God has hardwired the woman to give birth and nurture, and the man to provide and protect. We’re hardwired that way. And so, when an abortion takes place, that’s violated and we think we can get through that because we’ve made a panic decision to overcome an obstacle. 

And what we hear from women and then from men also through that is usually the man comes to the realization that he was responsible for and every bit as much a part of that abortion process as the mother, but he either didn’t want to or was unwilling to step in and say, I will be responsible. I will take the lead. 

We don’t need to do this. He will defer, so he won’t provide and protect, and that creates angst that goes way deep. I mean, that’s like a broken spirit. What has this experience taught you? This work is hard, and there is deep spiritual warfare. It’s emotionally draining, but it’s also very rewarding. 

Anytime we’re doing what God has called us to do, there’s a fulfillment and a joy unlike any other. And I would say one thing that I have really learned is just that God’s at work and His presence is undeniable in so many ways in this ministry. A common experience is just to see that client come in and feeling so hopeless and in crisis mode and we get to be the hands and feet of Jesus to her.  

And just have a front row seat of the Spirit working and loving her and like I said, being the hands and feet of Jesus. And when she walks out, it’s a whole different demeanor that she has. And it’s such a beautiful experience and something that keeps us going back. And I just think it shows so much, how deeply God cares for the wounded, the lost, the brokenhearted, and the lonely that he might be glorified. 

Rita, as you work with these young women, I see this person in conflict, and you intersect with them. What breaks down walls like that? The exciting part of this is you just never know how the Spirit’s going to work. It can be so many different things. At one time, this lady was very abortion minded and we did her sonogram and the yolk sac is generally a round circle and it was in the shape of a perfect heart. 

And the fetal pole was laying right on top of that heart. And she looked at it and was like, there’s no way I can have an abortion. And one time it was the estimated due date was the date her mother had passed away. So, it was a really special date to her. Sometimes it’s just looking at our fetal models. 

So you just never know how the Spirit’s going to work. And that’s why we go into every session praying deeply that the Spirit will work. It’s not always our words. It’s not always the sonogram. We never know what’s going to strike a chord in her. What are the reasons why she’s coming? What brings them in the door? 

Good questions. I feel like it is a lot of God’s pursuit for them that draws them there. They’ll want a pregnancy test for free. All of our services are free. So, we can offer them a free pregnancy test and then proof of pregnancy that they can use to go get medical care if they need that. We can also do a free ultrasound for them. 

We have parenting classes that we can offer them and then also can give them options of joining the parenting classes and earning rewards, baby bucks, to shop in our boutique for baby supplies. So, suppose a young lady comes in for a pregnancy test. Does she take the test right there? Yes. And so, do you read that result? 

Yes. And so sometimes you are the person who bears that news for the first time. Is that true? We are. That’s a very complicated moment, isn’t it? It is. Pregnancy tests are pretty readily available, so a lot of them will have done Dollar Tree pregnancy tests, but yeah, everything we do there is covered with God’s grace and help. 

I would imagine you walk a balance between affirming the life within her, that this is something, this is someone that can be celebrated, yet at the same time, a situation that might be very, very painful, and not celebratory. Sure. Thanks for doing that so well. Kevin, I mentioned, what have you learned? What has being involved in these retreats taught you? 

The retreats are bathed in prayer because there are spiritual forces at work. And so, I’ve discovered that. And at the retreats, the main thrust starts with the presentation of Christ and that he took their shame on the cross, just like he took my shame. Abortion is not an unforgivable sin. 

It is not an unforgivable sin. And yet, it has caused great damage to the individual, and that’s why they’re typically there. To be reminded at every retreat of what happened on the cross, that Christ took my shame and their shame, and it is powerfully presented. And all of a sudden, it isn’t about abortion, it is, he took my sin away. 

Why did he do that? You know, just that revelation every time of what he did. And in that, it’s very easy then to lose any view that I’m somehow superior to them because I’m not, none of us are. We are battling for the same thing, and that is a reconciliation with Christ. So, I would say what people walk in with, and if I would read testimonies, there’s a common word, and it’s, I am covered with shame. 

I am shameful. What gets lifted that makes the difference in these individuals? Is it that shame can be lifted? It is, I would say, the dominant statement. That, when they can finally articulate it was, I felt so much shame, I couldn’t share this with anyone. And sometimes they have a great relationship with their now husband and they’ve walked through all of those things. 

Sometimes they have never talked with their adult children. Sometimes they haven’t talked to a pastor or something. So it is that thing, if I am no one, no one will love me. It’s that same fear we all have. And that just gets uncovered because Jesus has already taken that shame. It’s not hard for me to imagine that shame would be so present. 

I read a statement here. This is by David Reardon. And he researched abortion. And I just thought it was really interesting. He said, abortion is not some magical surgery that turns back time to make a woman un pregnant. Instead, it is a real-life event, which is always very stressful and traumatic. Many women cannot resolve the trauma of the abortion on their own. 

I love that quote. I think that quote is so powerful. And all trauma is worked out in community at some level. I don’t think there’s any trauma that finds improvement in isolation. Yes. Or in secrecy. And so to have this as a very, very important need to be spoken into and to have people around makes perfect sense. 

Yeah. And I would say if I were to expand on that, shame would be the number one thing. The number two thing would be forgiveness of themselves to actually open their hearts up enough to expose it. And then to say, I can be forgiven and the forgiveness of others. The beauty of something I’ve learned is just the power of forgiving others and the power of understanding that Jesus really, in real life, forgave me. 

Not abstractly, but in real life for my sin, He forgave me. It’s powerful and extremely rewarding. Rita and Kevin, as both of you shared your interactions and your places of impact, we see Jesus present in these dark places, and Jesus so beautifully being the remedy in pre abortion care and post abortion care. 

What does that tell us about Jesus? It tells us that he’s never done, he never loses, he’s always pertinent, and he’s always restorative. Yes. As we bring this conversation to a close, I want you to speak to the church. Everybody’s aware of the abortion conversation and argument. 

At some level we’re all supposed experts. Both of you have been in the trenches in this matter, and I want you to speak to the church. How should we be thinking? What should we be doing? How should we be loving? How can we be Christ in this moment, in this area? Can I just share a story of a client that I visited with? 

Yes, please. I had the opportunity to meet with a college student who had recently found out she was pregnant. She was living far away from any family and was left in the college dorms, and this was the beginning of COVID, so the majority of the other students had gone home and she was very much alone there. 

She was struggling with her schoolwork because she was so nauseated and sick from the pregnancy. She did not want to tell her parents that she was pregnant, so she was not getting any medical help. She had grown up in a Christian family, and she too identified as a Christian, so was feeling really awful, and a lot of the shame we talked about already for getting herself into this scenario. 

The father of the baby was a friend of hers, but they had very differing ideas of where their future was headed, so they didn’t really see their relationship turning into anything else. So, to her, abortion seemed like a quick fix to get her out of the mess that she was in. But her Christian beliefs were making it very difficult to go that route. 

She asked us a lot of questions. We were able to line her up with different people to talk through abortion and adoption and what it would look like for her to parent. And we talked through prenatal development, the fact that at conception, 46 chromosomes come together. So, the baby she was carrying was a unique creation, unlike any other, and she was very troubled when she saw the baby models and the reality of what they looked like, even from very early gestation, and we did her ultrasound, and we saw the heart beating at six weeks, and she pulled me aside on one of her visits and said, can I ask you a really personal question? 

She said, do you have a daughter? And what would you say to her? How would you react if she came and told you that she was pregnant and not married? And, to her, that was just a huge hurdle. She just could not grasp the concept of trying to tell her parents and disappointing them so greatly. The many questions that were going through her mind were, how could she be a single mom? 

How could she finish her degree? How could she survive feeling so sick for even a day longer? How could she afford a baby? It all seemed like an impossible situation to her. And I would say this is not an uncommon scenario for us. And one thing that I just would really like to share today is just pleading with every parent to please have that hard conversation with your kids, with our Sunday School students, with those that you have influence over or mentor, speak the truth about abortion and what it is and what the Bible says about it. 

But also couple that with love, mercy, and grace. Let them know that without a doubt, if they find themselves in the midst of an unplanned pregnancy, we want them to come to us, and if they do come to us, that they’re going to find love and support. We just hear it so often from our younger clients. They can’t bear to share that news with their parents because of threats they’ve heard in the past. 

Or maybe they’ve heard us place judgment on someone else in that situation. Or on the other hand, if we haven’t said anything at all about the topic, then we leave them to assume what our reaction might be. And I will tell you that Satan loves darkness, and he’ll persuade them with all sorts of lies about what our reaction might be. 

And I recently read a quote that speaks so well to this situation. It’s the act leading up to the pregnancy where the sin took place. The pregnancy itself is not the sin. It’s a creation of God and a gift from God and these women need to feel that and they need to know that. Just having one safe person for them to share their journey with can make a huge difference and can help them potentially save the life of their baby. 

Thanks for sharing that testimony. I think all of us parents who have young daughters, and as a parent, I can tell you, I discipline the wrong things all the time, but we are really called here in this moment to love the right things and to correct the right things. And that I think is so powerfully illustrated by that testimony. 

Kevin, to you, what messages would you have for the church so that we can, in this very politicized issue, more healthily, godlier, approach this topic? We say we want to be a place of trust. You know, come, open your heart to us. And this is an area that, for whatever reason, we haven’t reached very well. 

You know, we just haven’t been the source. And I don’t think it’s because we don’t want to be. I think we’re kind of moving past stereotypes, and I don’t think that’s what we want. But this idea that Rita has brought out about being proactive and saying, hey, if you’re in trouble, this is the place you come, not the place you avoid. 

And so, part of that is we have to open ourselves up and be vulnerable that we are not perfect people, and we make a lot of mistakes, but we’re going to love as Jesus loves. We’re only going to try to do that. But I think one of the really powerful things that I’ve learned is this is a great example of healed people helping more than whole people. 

And so, I have seen people go from being shame filled, unforgiving, and all of the challenges that their life is presenting. And within a matter of days or weeks or months, being public about their experience because they can proclaim that Christ has redeemed them and they will no longer live in darkness. 

And so, I think that is the route. When I think of that with our church is they are living testimonies of what can happen if they’ve gone through the abortion experience, and they’ve been healed from that too. Whatever degree Christ heals them, they can be the most powerful voice. So, I would just say we want to continue to work to be the place where men and women and kids can come, and they can say I’m in a tough spot. 

What do I do? And we do have a network in our church that people will come around. We can do that well. It’s beautiful in all of its brokenness. That I think came out. It’s beautiful in all its brokenness. Which you have to just admire the Lord Jesus, don’t you? That he is not afraid to use this issue among all of our other vices also to draw people to him to save and restore them.  

And so, to our listeners, our whole prayer in this conversation is that we all would be inspired to love people pre and post abortion, to be thoughtful and to really extend Christ’s grace in this important matter. Rita and Kevin, you’ve illustrated that for us. Thank you so much. 

Thanks each one for being here Thanks for the opportunity. Yeah, likewise