Leaving & Cleaving Podcast Episode

In Deuteronomy 13:4, we read that ye shall walk after the Lord your God, and fear him, and keep his commandments, and obey his voice, and ye shall serve him, and cleave unto him. Cling, that’s that same word, and clearly throughout Scripture we’re reminded that he alone is the one we cling to. We don’t cling to my performance, my riches, approval of others, it’s him alone.

And we know that’s a lifelong process. Kaleb Beyer is back with me today and you know when Kaleb is here, our topic is marriage. Kaleb, we’re going to talk about leaving and cleaving. Welcome. Thanks. It’s good to be here, Matt. Leaving and cleaving, we find in some of the earliest portions of the Bible.

God speaks into marriage and in particular, leaving father and mother and cleaving to one’s spouse. Am I right on that? Becoming one flesh. You’re right. Yeah. God desires for us to cleave unto him as we read in Deuteronomy, which is the same word that he uses for cleaving a man to a woman. It models the relationship that each one of us desires to have with our Lord.

So, you’re even backing up a little bit, saying that what God has laid down in example in marriage, in leaving and cleaving, first has come out of his desire for relationship with us, and we’re called to cleave to him. And that provides context now for the marriage. As he calls us to serve him and to leave anything but him behind.

The same sort of way we’re called into a marriage relationship with our spouse is to leave those things behind. Whether it’s my single life, whether it’s my family, even my pursuits of various pieces. Not that we forget them or reject them. My preoccupation with my career, for example, or whatever. I would presume this is an ongoing activity.

We’re not just speaking to the honeymooners necessarily. But throughout marriage, we’re leaving and cleaving. I think so. It comes up very clearly when a couple is engaged and gets married. But the reality is, it comes up throughout our lives. And so, weaving this conversation throughout can be a healthy dialogue to have as a couple. So yes, it’s a process. It’s not an end point. Kaleb, I can only presume since you suggested the topic and have thought a great deal about it and in your work, you see where this is done well, and you see where this is not done well. First, provide maybe a bit of a vision. When this is leaving and cleaving is happening.

Yeah. What do we see? We see a couple closely knit together that has become one flesh. There is a deep connection and union spiritually, emotionally, and there’s a sharing one with another that is inseparable. Yes, so the connection is so much so that they’re united in a way to address things that are outside of the relationship, and that happens to be in laws, that happens to be work family life balance.

Because of that, when you say oneness and togetherness and they stand with each other, that definitely smells of the cleaving part of it. But the word order says leave first before cleaving can happen. Yeah. So, we’ll go down that leaving trail. What is meant by that? Sure. We had horses growing up. And so sometimes we would tie them up when we’d saddle them up. So, we’d tie them to the fence. When we’re letting go, it would be me untying that horse and letting go of the reins and just letting it go where it wills. And I think that’s a similar picture, at least in my mind, when we think about an individual that leaves home, that’s what we’re doing is we’ve instilled truth and responsibility, character traits, the Word of God in their heart, and now it’s time to begin to let go of the reins.

There’s a parent side of things and a letting go, and then there is the couple who are now married letting go. Right? Very much so. Yeah. And what does that look like? For parents, this starts early. So, my oldest daughter is going to be 12 in December. And one of the things that we’re already talking about is a contract related to her cell phone and how we can increasingly give her responsibility and freedom so she’s able to make those choices and mess up, no doubt, at home under our care so that when she hits 18, that she has a cell phone on her own and we’re not checking in on that.

So, you’re looking long term and thinking. What do we need to prepare her for? Yes, to leave. Yeah, and so as parents, that process I think starts early. But oftentimes it’s wow, we’ve invested many years, 18 years, into them and made many sacrifices but with that investment there’s an attachment.

And so just letting go doesn’t come easy. It’s not like one day we shut off our parents, and say, see you later. That would be a painful separation. Absolutely. And so, we’re looking at this letting go, not only to be a point in time, but over time. A process. Yes. What would be some of the things you talk about? You gave the example of a cell phone, right?

But what are other qualities as you think about marriage and what is required in marriage? Yeah. Speaking to us parents as we raise our children, what are some of those qualities that we should be preparing in our children to help facilitate this leaving? Matt, I think one of the things is an area of decision making to instill confidence for them to make decisions on their own, progressively as they get older.

So rather than us making all their decisions as they get older, helping them to come to that decision on their own, but guiding it. It’s healthy for my kids to get to the point where they can leave me on that as well. And then we’re not saying they’re not going to get advice and come and get counsel and that type of thing.

Sure, absolutely. But to be able to stand up on your feet. Yeah. Leaving and letting go is not abandoning. It’s not rejecting, and it can feel like that sometimes I think to parents, and if not handled in a respectful way. Maybe that happens, but what we’re saying here is if they make a decision that’s different than ours that I disagreed with and I said it was against my counsel presuming it was not against Scripture but absolutely, that’s something we let go of and not manage. So, you’ve just given us a lens, this is not abandonment, this is good, healthy separation or leaving. Yeah. And that’s helpful. Does anything else come to mind as you think about what those qualities would be as we think about leaving?

Another area is just around the piece of financial management. So as parents teach our children about saving and spending and doing it in a way that gives them responsibility to manage their finances, they begin to make those decisions on their own and become accountable for their finances.

Because if the default is I’m just going to go to mom and dad for money, when I get in a pickle, that very easily can move into the marriage relationship, which isn’t a healthy dynamic to have. I think you’ve got our minds turning and saying, oh, okay, yeah, I should be preparing my kids for leaving, realizing that this is good and appropriate in marriage.

What do I want to instill in them to help that process, help facilitate it? The overall principle of instilling in our kids that I’m responsible for my actions, my emotions, decisions, and that’s really as parents, what we’re instilling in them. Well, so that transition not only goes much more smoothly, but the couple that’s getting engaged in this case that we’re talking about is much more apt to embrace that, which moves to the next piece here, which is the cleaving part, which certainly follows from the leaving.

You have to leave before you cleave. What does cleave mean? Cleave, in a simple way is like gluing two pieces together. So, when you get a drop of super glue on your fingers and you put your fingers together, they’re fastened. Yes. And you start to peel them apart. You can’t do that easily without tearing some skin off or having some pain.

And so, the same is true as we think about cleaving within a marriage relationship. It’s a gluing of two souls and mingling of two souls that become one. And then, what is the result of that cleaving? A new creation. So, when Ange and I left our families, she’s an Edelman, I’m a Beyer. We’re not creating a new Beyer family; we’re not creating a new Edelman family. We’re creating a unique, new family all its own in the Lord. And so, I think that cleaving in some ways is a new creation in the Lord. And I love it when we see a pattern. God often, I think, does things and they resemble each other.

For example, we’ve already talked about Deuteronomy, where we are supposed to leave and cleave to him. He puts it in marriage. And then he even knits our children together with the DNA matchings, right, that are leaving and cleaving. And he predetermines which come from the Beyers and which are going to come from the Edelmans.

He knits those together, but they are a unique person, right? And there is a bringing together there of two separate parties. And brought together in a way that is difficult to distinguish or unravel those different parts of the families. Yeah, where do problems come in? So, if we’re listening to this Kaleb and we’re like, I wonder if this is an issue for me.

If the discussion of in laws and extended family is frequently something that comes up and there’s tension around that within the couple relationship, that’s an indicator there’s something going on with the leaving and cleaving process. And with that, I would say if one spouse is making commitments to their own family without first talking with and talking through those social engagement commitments with their spouse, then that’s an indicator something’s going on.

Yeah. I think another thing is conflict happens within marriage. It’s part of the relationship. When one spouse is going to their family and that’s kind of a standard where they’re sharing out the conflict that happens behind closed doors, just normal conflict within a relationship. I don’t think that’s a healthy leaving and cleaving process because one spouse is relying too much for emotional support on their own family when that’s part of the leaving process.

Yeah. I think those make a lot of sense and ring true. And so how then do you do it? So, if we realize, okay, that’s me, how do we move forward with that? Yep. Initially, even recognizing this goes back a little bit to leaving. But again, the leaving process is a process, meaning it goes on for the rest of our lives and doesn’t just have to do with family. Again, it has to do with work and other commitments outside the marriage relationship. But one of the things I think that is helpful, Matt, is just knowing what it is that I’m leaving.

So, for my own family, there’s certain things that I value, that I appreciate, or maybe there’s things that, oh, wow, I’d like to do differently when I form my own family. Whatever those are, we need to label and identify how they influence our behavior and our expectations within our relationship and our marriage.

And to me, that’s the first piece. We use the term rose colored glasses. Well, I may have Kaufmann colored glasses. I came into this surely wearing those glasses. Absolutely right. Yeah. Where certain things made sense. My experience added up and made this conclusion. And I need to realize, oh, I’m wearing those glasses.

And my wife also has a set that she has on. Absolutely. That’s a good way to put it. The leaving and cleaving process is transferring loyalties. So, when I went to my parents first when I was in their home, now I’m no longer going to them first, but I’m going to my spouse first. If there is a disagreement maybe with my family and my immediate family and my family of origin, I might need to step into that space and clear it up instead of expecting my wife to clear it up.

Yeah. Is that what that looks like? Yeah. I think it’s a good example of when there is a conflict that arises with family, the one whose family it is needs to take the step ahead and not expect the other person, which would be an in law, to step in and to set the boundaries to address it within the relationship.

Would another ear marker be just like time spent on the telephone, for example? Well, sometimes we can carve out communication with our parents or our siblings and neglect our spouses. Right. And somehow, we haven’t even connected, but yet we’ve connected in a number of other ways. It just happens.

Yeah. If it gets in the way of connection of the cleaving process, absolutely. I hesitate to move in to saying a specific amount of time, simply because I think there are gender differences. I think there are personality differences as far as how much individuals spend communicating with others generally, not just their family.

Oh, yeah. I’m glad you clear that up, actually, because I was just thinking my wife talks to her sisters a lot, right? If we summed up all that communication, I think she violated what I just said, but I don’t feel that at all. Yeah, right. Anyway, good point. Excellent point. Yeah. What are some other ways that facilitate that cleaving?

The other thing is developing and establishing your own rituals as a family. So, what that means is now again, this could be a tradition that you did in your own family. If that’s something that your spouse says, yeah, hey, let’s adapt that. But I think even putting a twist on it so that it’s your own family’s tradition and things that you do together creates meaning. Again, that new creation as a family that also fosters cleaving or clinging together, which creates experiences and memories that not only do you have in that moment, but you get to laugh about or cry about through the rest of your life as a family.

And so, I think those also help establish that cleaving or clinging or gluing together. Yeah, that’s excellent. Inherent in this cleaving process is that there will be losses. So, as we form a new family, as we leave our own family and form a new family, there are things that we did growing up that we’re not going to do in our new family, that we miss.

And that’s a reality that I think we need to consciously let go of, and not internally turn on, if you will. And it sounds to me like that’s a wherewithal, just to realize that, oh, I’m going to be giving up things that I would rather not give up. Yeah. Not having an altruistic view that I get my cake and eat it too, and she can have her cake and eat it too.

In fact, we’ll just always eat cake. Hey, wouldn’t that be great? Hey, Kaleb, statistics would show that more and more people are staying single and then getting married. As opposed to yesteryear when a lot of folks went straight from home to marriage, right? Sure. And that’s the reality of it. Does that provide any other nuances in this?

Yeah, I think it does. Where individuals have left home and they’ve had a single lifestyle, that means I’m managing my own calendar. You know, I’m fully on my own. Yeah. Left home. So, the transition into marriage then is one where the one individual who has been single for a long time just needs to be aware and cognizant that I’m no longer single.

I’m married and what I do affects my spouse. And so, as I make decisions, whether it be about finances, about social engagement, that now I’m leaving the single lifestyle. And I’m moving into marriage. You know what I see? Sometimes, perhaps, the young getting married out of the house, it’s really profound leaving mom and dad.

And in a sense, the older single is leaving himself, kind of. Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Leaving my own already established tradition. And for this marriage. And I think that poses some extra challenges. You and I, off the air, have had conversations along these lines of perhaps the movement of marriage and the concept of marriage in our culture, which is very anti leaving and cleaving.

In fact, it’s very much, let’s come to an agreement and then we will allow ourselves to live the parallel lives that we will agree to. And we try to get out from underneath the cleaving, for example. Yeah. Does that make sense? Absolutely. I think that is very pervasive in marriages, and perhaps, I hope I’m wrong, but it looks like it’s the trajectory of marriage.

Yeah, I would agree with you, Matt. It’s really self-focused, and the cleaving or the attachment within a healthy, biblical marriage relationship is getting a bad rap. It’s looking like dependency rather than a healthy connecting in this relationship as one, as God calls it. As a new creation, which you’ve already used as a metaphor all the way through this podcast, which I love.

And it’s right out of the model of the gospel. We are to leave the world and join in covenant with Christ and cleave to him. And the pattern is unmistakable. For sure. What a beautiful thing. Satan hates the smell of the gospel wherever he smells it. And he smells it in Christian marriage. And so, we can expect it to be under fire.

We can expect leaving and cleaving to be under fire, right? But I appreciate the encouragement and the clear points and applications here today. Kaleb, okay, where am I at with this and how can I better leave and better cleave to my spouse? Yeah. Kaleb, we’re talking to a wide audience and you’re aware of that.

And so, as we talk about leaving and cleaving, while it applies to every marriage, it looks different in every marriage. For sure. I think in general, what we’ve been talking through in this process of leaving and cleaving is what we would consider just through the normal process of life. But there are certain situations, Matt, that come up where even this process that we’ve talked about today may not be the model process.

Or maybe it’s used against a person. I’m just going to paint an ugly picture. Perhaps there’s a great deal of sin. And one spouse is holding the other one a bit in bondage saying, no, leave and cleave. And we’re not really purporting that. No, nope. And there’s certain situations like that where they’ve tried to work things out on their own and there’s deep rooted sin or hardness of heart that bringing in a third party is necessary and needful but would be certainly different than what we’re talking about for the leaving and cleaving process.

That makes sense. Absolutely. Thanks a lot, Kaleb, for bringing this very insightful topic, and to our listeners, we just want to encourage you in your marriages and leaving and cleaving to your spouse as we leave and cleave to Christ and to his saving grace.