Living Joyfully Podcast Episodes

Welcome to Breaking Bread. I’m Matt Kaufman, your host, and I’m honored to have with me some in-house clinicians here at ACCFS, Brothers Brian Sutter and Kaleb Beyer. Welcome guys. Thanks, Matt. Thanks. Good to be here. It is our prayer here at Breaking Bread that we would break the bread of life and that he could be broken today and bear himself on the topic of joy. 

We live in a high-strung, high demand world, and sometimes though we know we should be joyful in Christ, sometimes that joy doesn’t translate to our faces. So, what do we have in store here with this podcast, Brian? Yeah, I think that’s our heart. Just thinking about as we walk through life what does it look like to have joy in the journey? 

And we’re going to try to walk through five different things that might be helpful with that. So, I’ll just walk through those to give you an overview of where we’re headed. The first one we’re going to move into here pretty soon, I think, is living with intentionality, with the hope that it can give us direction with the common struggle of busyness. 

And then as we move forward, we’re going to try to move into living in the present moment as that can be really helpful in working through regrets or worries. And then we’ll move on to living in acceptance and helping us not always just wrestle with the things that we can’t change but accept what we can’t change and what that looks like. 

And then living with an appreciative heart to help us through negativity and then living with childlikeness that can help us in pain and suffering. Is that different than childishness? Well, I hope so. I’m really excited about that part. Yeah. I think that comes really natural for me. Yeah. 

And I think that it’s such a great thing. With kids, there’s so much, they drive us nuts, right? But there are also so many things that we can learn from them, and that’s the heart of that one. I think. That’s wonderful. So, they have something to teach us. Well, let’s start then with intentionality. 

What do you mean by living intentionally? Kaleb, can you speak to that? Sure. A couple parts to living with intentionality. The first is, I think, is knowing what we’re being intentional about, right? Knowing. And so, there’s a focus on that, which we want to be intentional about. And then the other part is how we engage in it. You paint somewhat of a picture that often we spend our lives doing lots of things. But not all of those things are intentional. And so, you’re calling us to an awareness of what we do and how we spend our time. 

Is that right? I think you’re right there, Matt. Like Kaleb’s saying, there’s just so many things that you can do. There are lots of really good things to do, and I think as believers we would all say that we want to do things that honor Christ. We want to follow the commandments and carry out the commission and so on. 

And that’s a great goal. But oftentimes the broadness of that leaves us at the mercy of whatever comes down the request line. And we don’t necessarily think with intentionality about what I am and does this fit or if it does fit, then how do I do it? 

And I think that’s really where we want to try to zero in to give some guidance. So, part of this discussion is narrowing the scope of the things that we engage in and realizing that yes, lots of things are good and right and Christian. But I am not called to do all the things. We can engage in many good things. 

But in the narrowing down piece, I guess I think of Mary and Martha and the concept that Martha was doing, was serving. She was providing hospitality for Jesus. And so it wasn’t that she wasn’t doing something good, but she became distracted, right? She lost focus on the intent and purpose of what she was doing. 

And Jesus spoke then to this intentionality saying, Martha, you’re worried about many things, but Mary had chosen the better part. And that better part maybe didn’t seem ambitious and didn’t seem at all to be good use of time, but he in fact verified that it was great use of time. 

Yeah. And I think that sometimes the simple things, slowing down, just sitting enjoying the presence of the Lord, be with him. We don’t see that as being “productive,” but that is a good thing to be able to do. And then if we aren’t really intentional about saying no to certain things, we will never have time to do those things that at times don’t feel as productive. 

But we are definitely called to in Scripture. So, Kaleb, you started saying that we’re going to talk about what intentionality is and we’re going to get to the how, but maybe in between the what and the how, there is this underlying presupposition or principle that we have to understand that Martha didn’t. And that is that all of those things didn’t need to get done because Christ was in the room. Christ was there. Is there something for believers that cradles this understanding that allows us as believers to say no or to say wait to certain things? Absolutely. One of the things that we need to just remember is that we don’t have to do everything. And that I think it can be very easy for us to fall into the misbelief that if I don’t do it, no one will. 

And, at first, that may be true, but it’s interesting as we step out, God always provides either somebody to fill that in or we realize that he’s okay with it not being done. And that’s okay and that can be a painful transition or process, but one that’s really important for us to realize that this is all in God’s hands. 

And he’s going to get done what needs to get done, and we can just rest and trust in that at the end of the day. And so, there’s that understanding piece that there are some things I shouldn’t say yes to because another person will say yes to that. And a larger understanding of God’s body and God’s completeness helps relinquish some of this angst that I have to say yes to everything. 

Is that true? Is that part of what we need to come to understand? It’s interesting when you look at the word decision and you look at some of the root words, it actually means that you kill something off. You and most of us don’t look at decisions that way. But that’s essentially what you’re doing by saying yes here. 

You naturally have to, even if you don’t consciously do it, say no somewhere else. And now that makes a whole lot more sense. When I was taking tests and, and multiple-choice tests, I was trying to make a decision. I was always ruling out, I don’t think it’s this one. I don’t think it’s this one. And then you just crossed your fingers and hope, right? 

It’s about saying no to those areas that maybe we’re not gifted in, don’t fill us up in a way or fit with our gifts. And being able to say yes to those areas that maybe God’s gifted us in. Others see us being able to be used by God in ways that maybe others can’t.  

So, Kaleb, now you’re really speaking to, we’re getting to that. How are we going to do this? And what I hear out of what you just said is a little bit of some rubric, a little bit of some metric on how I then evaluate the things that I do and should be thinking about. Did you say giftings? Things that fill me up. 

So, help our listeners now understand or take that rubric and size it up for themselves. What do we mean by this? Well, I think that does push on an area for all of us that’s a bit uncomfortable when we think about sitting down and saying, okay, where am I gifted? That tends to be something that makes us all a bit squeamish, but I think, is that Christian pride? 

I think it is, yes, definitely. Because if we don’t do that, in some ways, we’re denying that Christ has given us each gifts when Scripture is clear that he has. So, to say, God, I don’t know. It’s not that. We’re seeking pride, but we’re seeking his fingerprints in our lives and in our hearts. 

How do I see that? So, I can use that for his honor, for his glory to be a part of the body and do the things that he’s created us to do. And knowing where we’re gifted is key in that. That makes a lot of sense, Kaleb. How would you then counsel somebody to help them understand where maybe they’re gifted or what activities are best for them to be intentional about? Yeah. Well, I think there are some practical ways. There is the spiritual gifts inventory and ways that they can go and take different tests even on our website and it gives them some sort of understanding about their spiritual gift. Right.  

I think the other thing too is just a simple self-awareness. If you’re an individual that is an extrovert, loves being with large groups of people interacting, and that’s what gives you energy, chances are one of your areas of focus is an opportunity when you can do more of that, because that fills you up, okay. Versus someone who’s an introvert. They maybe need to say no to some of those things to have space and time for reflection for them to be filled up. And so, having your ear to the ground a little bit too to know what fills you up or what drains you because that language really speaks to me. 

The activities that fill me up and are life giving differ from person to person, but I definitely know what those are for me while this activity over here might seem arduous for another person, it is life giving to me, but vice versa for another. And I think too, to be able to just know that. There are probably people that know you well who can also speak into that. I think that’s another really key thing about the body is if we have people around us, they’re probably going to have good insight into where we’re gifted and to be able to ask them. The other thing that I would just encourage people with is that you being gifted in an area doesn’t mean that you necessarily have to be the best in that area. 

Important, right, exactly. Yeah. So, even if you’re not the best at that, it doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t step into it. You know, if it’s something you have passion for, you feel like the Lord’s blessed you with a desire and some gifts there, let somebody who you feel like has that gift who’s ahead of you, come alongside and mentor you or encourage you in that. 

And it’s not that you have to be the best. If you just have a fire and a desire, learning is part of the process. I think that’s so important so we’re taking that out of the rubric. It’s not that you’re the best at something in order to do it, that’s not it at all. And it reminds me too of some other helpful distinctions to make. 

So, when I think about this process of either saying, what do I say yes to or what do I say no to? I think how you ask questions can be helpful here. So, for example, if you ask the question, could I do this? Whatever it is, that is not a particularly helpful question because a lot of times that’s going to be yes. Yeah, exactly. You’re going to be able to fit it in somewhere somehow. But I don’t think that’s the right question. So, is this a good thing to do? Again, I don’t think that’s a very helpful question. Whereas if you ask the question, is this an area that I’m gifted in? That helps to bring some separation. 

Or if in your own mind you’ve identified, here’s some places I really want to minister to over the next three months. Does it fit into those three areas that you’ve identified? You know, so that you ask questions that help bring some division, rather than always just saying yes. So, if central to a person is their family or their children, if they’re at that stage of life, you might be taking requests and saying, does this fit with how I want to interact with my family? 

Is this going to take me away from my family or is this going to breathe life into my family? Does this need to be processed within that larger scope? Is that what I’m hearing? Yes. Living with intentionality isn’t a one-time evaluation of things in my life I’m going to say yes to, but it’s an ongoing piece. 

And I would say even along with that, when there’s an opportunity, before I engage in taking on something new, to be able to say, what am I going to take off of my plate, so to speak. If I wouldn’t have this opportunity, what would I be willing to sacrifice? And viewing our time as a budget. Yeah. Really as a fixed amount of time. 

Certainly, understand that financially, we’ve got to cut this out if we’re going to add this in, I mean there’s just no other way to split the money up. Well, time is even more religious than money, isn’t it? Yes. In the day of debt and credit cards time is even more demanding in that way. 

Ah. Yeah. And at the end of the day, you’ve only got so much. You can’t make any more time than you have. I think another thing that I would just say, and maybe this is a practical piece, I think we live in a culture that values busyness. Like if you’re busy, that must mean you’re really important. 

It’s true. Yeah, and I think that’s the wrong mindset. I think if we go and we can’t wait on a Sunday afternoon to tell people how busy we are that I think we need to work at readjusting that and be able to say, wait, what are my priorities? And if I’m so busy, what do I need to take off? 

It’s not okay to just always be so busy that you don’t have time for the things that are really important to you. And you have got to be the one that makes adjustments. It won’t come at the next turn unless you do something different. And so, the question that has propagated this discussion is joy. So, what we’re saying is if we are lacking in joy, we feel run down. We feel stressed beyond measure. These are all indicators that maybe we’re not living intentionally. Is that true? Yeah, I am glad you brought it back to that because I think that’s key. The reason for the whole discussion here is if we aren’t intentional and we don’t make some decisions on the front end about what we will and won’t do, joy is just going to be drained out of our lives because we’re created as human beings that need rest and recoup. 

That’s who God has created us to be. And if we don’t have those sorts of things and we’re not using our giftedness, joy is going to be hard to find. Matt and Brian, I think the exciting part about all of this is the hope that as believers we can have joy by living intentionally in the midst of this harried life. Yeah, it is really exciting. And I think maybe just one thing that comes to me here as we’re wrapping up is the intentionality that Christ lived with. You know, I’m always amazed at his mission. If you ask that question and if you see him walk through the New Testament, he never stays in a place until everyone’s healed. That was not his mission. Interesting. Yeah, it’s fascinating. So, you would say he turned his back. Yes. At some point he did. Yeah. Can you think of being in line to meet Jesus and be healed and you are the next in line and he says it’s time to go down the road. You know, that had to have happened. 

And it’s like, how could that be? But I think again that Christ’s mission was to come and bring hope and salvation to the world. It was not to heal us physically, but it was to heal us spiritually and to stay on mission. That meant he was going to have to say no and turn away even with those that were still sick, that he loved. 

That’s part of what he had to do. And I think that gives us a model that there are going to be some things that are really good that I’m going to have to say no to, just like Christ did. And what allowed Christ to say no and to turn his back and move on was a larger understanding of what his purpose was, a larger understanding of who was going to come after him, that being the Holy Spirit, the larger understanding of the church that was going to be born, and his disciples carrying that on. 

I wonder if he almost turned away from people with joy in his heart, thinking wow, there’s going to be so much more coming. Yeah. You don’t know how great this is. You know that I’m here and that I’m leaving. I know it’s sad right now, but you don’t see the big picture. Yeah. Unless I go, the Holy Spirit won’t come. 

That’s what he says in John 16. And so I think that is a great way maybe to draw this to a conclusion that we have a larger understanding of God’s goodness and God’s bigness to carry out all of the things necessary in this world. And that we don’t have to do everything because his body is so big. 

And that faith is very life giving. Brothers, thanks a lot for this discussion about intentionality. We look forward to further conversations. Thanks to our listeners for being with us today. 

Welcome back to Breaking Bread. We’re picking up a wonderful conversation with Brian Sutter and Kaleb Beyer. Welcome back to the show guys. Hi. Thanks Matt. It’s good to be here. We’re picking up a conversation about living a joyous life in a difficult world with many demands. In our last conversation, we talked about how living with intentionality was so key in order to make wise choices about how we use our time. 

We talked about how time was even on a budget and that we had limited resources. And then we ended talking about Christ and how he lived intentionally. Where are we going with the conversation today, Brian? Yeah. The next thing we’re trying to do is focus in on skill number two, living in the present and then shifting into number three, living by accepting. 

Let’s start with living in the present. Kaleb, can you expound a little bit about that? What are we talking about? Living in the present is being able to bring ourselves and calm ourselves to the point, to fully experience this moment. We do have the past that bears itself upon today, and we do have fret of tomorrow, or certainly thoughts about tomorrow. 

So, are you going to help us then here today, know how to handle yesterday and tomorrow so that we can live in the present? I hope so. I mean, at least we’ll touch on that. Yeah, sure. And you know, I’ll give you a few things to chew on, but I think in my mind, I think this is something that Paul must have been speaking to when he talked about that he had learned. 

So, I think that’s a really important word that he learned. And whatsoever state that he’s in therewith to be content. So, that tells me that he was content with whatever’s going on around him. And what a wonderful thing to be able to move towards whatever our circumstances around us, to be content, but also to recognize that Paul had to learn that. 

So, we are going to have to learn that as well. This is going to be something that we have to practice and be able to be in the moment to learn from the past, to plan for the future. But ultimately, to be in the moment and enjoy that is a big key here with Paul. What I understand is it wasn’t that he had everything in order. It wasn’t that he had figured everything out. He wasn’t in a place of perfection which allowed him to be in the present or because that’s where he wanted to be. It was not even comfortable. Yes. The present wasn’t comfortable. Absolutely. It wasn’t that it felt good. What he did know was Christ, right? 

He knew who God was and that’s what he did know. What he didn’t know was how this was going to turn out. Or if he was going to be in prison tomorrow. Or if somebody was going to show up with money the next day, or if he was going to have food. He didn’t know those sorts of things, but what he did know was who God was and what Christ had done. 

Wow. How does Christ say, sufficient for the day is the evil thereof? Matthew Chapter 6. Yes. As he talks about birds and flowers. Birds are wonderful illustrations. Watch a bird fly around and go to the feeder. I wonder if that bird is wondering if that feeder is going to be there tomorrow. Do you think there’s any concern? Yeah. It’s hard to say, but I doubt it. It sure doesn’t look like it. Well, at my house it better be worrying. Yeah, well, they have your neighbor, right? That’s true. Yeah.  

But I think this is such a wonderful thing for us to remember that anxiety is part of life. So, we’re going to experience anxiety. When we look at the future and wonder how I am going to get through that. We’re going to wonder about that and it’s going to create some anxiousness with it. We don’t want to get lost in that. We want to come back to the reality that God has it whatever’s ahead for tomorrow. 

God has it in his hands and Scripture even tells us it’s wise to plan for the future. So, we can spend some time there but then let’s come back and enjoy what’s going on right here, what the Lord has blessed us with right in front of us so that we don’t spend all of our time worrying about what will be tomorrow, that we can’t actually change. 

So, there’s a larger element of faith. Again, we can see in our last conversation, how our faith is so important in allowing us to live joyfully in the present. And without that faith of a larger God who holds the future and a larger God who puts today in context of the past as he can only do it, allows us to live now. 

Can you help give us a taste in our mouth of what it would look like practically of a person living in the present? One of the things that I think about is just the verse in Psalms about being still and knowing that I’m God, being still in the faith to know that the things that are coming up or the experiences from the past or the things that have happened in this moment.  

Right. It’s in God’s hands and he has it in control so that I can experience him and his presence now, even when those things aren’t figured out. So, one of the things I think it takes for us, Matt, is just slowing down. So, one of the earmarks of a person living in the present would be slowing down and the discipline of rest in the Lord or reflection in the Lord or quietness in the Lord. Is that what I’m hearing? Yeah. I think that is a big key, resting in the Lord. He’s got tomorrow in his hand and the things that you messed up yesterday, it’s okay. You know, he can figure them out and if there are things that we need to go back and apologize for, that’s fine. 

You do that piece. But at the end of the day. It’s okay. It’s in his hands and we can rest in that. What an act of worship or an act of faith to really rest. I mean, the only way a person can rest is to have that faith. And so, that helps me as I think about living in the present. 

I think as we walk through all five of these different things that we’re going to visit about, eventually you’ll see that the life we live in is constantly telling us that we are in charge and we need to take care of things. I mean, that’s the constant message and I guess what we’re trying to say is stepping back and wanting to have joy in your life is continuing to remind yourself that God is the one who’s in control. You don’t have to be. And to be able to be thankful for that and enjoy that.  

I think this pushes us to the next part about living with acceptance. Now I’m going to try to presuppose what you’re going to say about living with acceptance. At some point we do accept, and you’ve already mentioned it, tomorrow’s situations and things upcoming and we have to accept our past. 

We certainly can’t change it. So, let’s move on into that second part about what it means to live with acceptance. One of the things about living with acceptance is not saying that we like it. Okay, so at this moment, we go back to Paul and whether he was in jail or whether he was being persecuted or whatever. And so, it wasn’t that he liked what he was going through, but acceptance meant that this was reality in that moment. I think that brings a lot of relief, Kaleb, to know that I don’t have to like my today to live in the present and to be joyful. Or I don’t have to like the situations in my past and I’m not necessarily asked to get out of all of these all of these cares and concerns, but there is a way for me to process my cares and concerns a way for me to accept them. In a way that I can live joyfully.  

Helping us illustrate that is an important concept. I’d like to demonstrate here, just as we’re sitting here, maybe a walkthrough, an exercise that may demonstrate this piece about acceptance and what it looks like in a day and a moment in Kaleb Beyers counseling room. We’re all excited. Yes. And listeners, you won’t pay a dime for it. Oh, we’re all on pins and needles. Oh yeah. So, all right, we’re going to need to use our imagination here a bit as we walk through this. But I’d like to paint a picture of what we’ve been talking about the cares and the concerns of yesterday of tomorrow. 

What I’d like to demonstrate here are the different relationships that we have with those things in our lives. So, Brian, here’s a clipboard. And what I’d like you to imagine with this clipboard is that this represents all your stress concerns. Those things going on in your life that can just really weigh you down. 

Okay. Yep. I’ve got the clipboard with all the cares concerns. That makes sense. I’m holding it right here. Okay, great. Now to illustrate this first relationship, Brian, are there many items on your clipboard? Well, that’s a personal question, Matt. I sure hope so because there’s lots on mine. 

Yeah. The reality is yes; you’re right, it’s build up. Everybody feels better. I’m hoping Kaleb can help. It’s a bit heavy. Yeah. Now what I’d like you to do with that clipboard is to bring it up as close as you can to your nose without touching it. Okay? Okay, got it. Alright, great. 

So now as you have that clipboard there, how engaged do you feel right now as you’re here with Matt and me to carry on a conversation. Well, it’s difficult, as wonderful as your voice is without being able to see anything. This board is just so consuming that I really can’t see or be engaged. Okay, so you feel it is distracting and a barrier to be engaged in the conversation. What if your son or daughter were in the room with you here, Brian, and they wanted you to play with them, do you think you’d do that? 

Well, I think it’d be extremely difficult because, first of all, I wouldn’t be able to see them. And I think if I can’t see them, I don’t know what they need or what they’re wanting from me and, and therefore I’m just stuck here consumed with my cares and concerns that are right in front of my face. 

They can’t engage you nor you engage them. Yeah. It’s just a loss because you have engagement problems. Yeah. And I’m just concerned about those problems. Those are our past problems and our future anxieties and our present situation. So now let’s move on to the second relationship. Here, Brian, so as you have the clipboard, again, with all the problems and concerns, I want you to push that clipboard away from your body. Okay. Arms extended. And I want you to just imagine that you’re up against a wall and you’re pushing against it using quite a bit of force to hold that clipboard against the wall, so it doesn’t fall. 

Yep. Alright, so I’m doing that. I can feel that my shoulders are tense, and while I can see more going on around me, I’m consumed with keeping this board against the wall. So, you’re noticing tenseness in your body just as you’re doing that in the moment. Now, let’s imagine, Brian, that you did that for the rest of the day here, for the next six to eight hours. What do you think you’d feel like at that point? Oh, I’d be exhausted, no doubt, physically and mentally, and I think as I anticipate what it would be like to interact with my family when I get home. I can tell you. When I’m exhausted physically and mentally, I am not too pleasant to be around. I would be able to see them, which would be helpful. But to be able to engage them in the way that I want to and be able to experience joy would be nearly impossible.  

Okay, so now let’s move on to the next relationship. I’d like you to take that clipboard and just sit and hold it in your lap. Okay. So, it’s the same clipboard filled with the same stresses, concerns, and worries. Now, I would like you to describe for our listeners, just what that experience is like. You know it’s still there. But it’s in your lap. Now, what’s it like for you? Well, I feel a lot of relief. It’s still present, but it’s not all consuming like it was the first time. It’s not just draining me like it was the second time. Now it’s present, but I feel like I can see the world around me, and I can engage in it. So, this is much better.  

And now the light bulb in my own mind goes on as I watch this demonstration. I see that there is a tendency for people to feel like they can’t let go of cares and concerns. I mean these are really deep, big things in our lives, in our past and our future. And maybe it wouldn’t be right to not think of them. Maybe it wouldn’t be right for them not to be in front of our face. Maybe it wouldn’t be right not to be mindful of them all the time. 

But this changing of position, I can see where you’re accepting it. Holding them in your face and holding them on your lap is different altogether, but you’re not shirking them. Yeah. I think that’s one of the things Satan attacks the believer with all the time is all of the shoulds. 

Either you shouldn’t feel this way, or you should be able to get rid of this, or you fill it all in and it gets us to wrestle and start to fight with ourselves rather than just saying, I don’t understand it. I don’t have to like it, but this is real. And now I want to engage in life even though this is present, whatever it is. 

And so, let’s put an example to it. We might have a very close relationship with a friend that might be going through a divorce or something like that. And it’s, it’s bothering us and we think, man, we should be helping, we should be thinking, how can I enjoy my kids knowing that situation, which I’m very close to, is going on. 

So, this concept of holding that in my lap and not holding it in front of my face is altogether different and necessary. Is that right? Yeah. I think for that not to consume us and suck all the life out of us, we have to be able to have that place of saying, yeah, I care deeply for my friend. And when that comes to mind, I weep for them. I pray for them, and I want to purposefully step out of the pain and step into the things that the Lord has right here, that I can get joy in. Where I think that will help me to be filled up again so that I can go visit my friend and minister to their heart. Whereas if I just stay here with it right in front of my face or fighting it the whole time, I’m not going to be nearly as able to minister to them later, if that makes sense. 

And those problems don’t always have to be third party. I think of a story that I just recently heard where a lady was talking about her family reunions and how she had some great aunts who had some deep hurt in their lives, just real deep personal hurts and issues, but yet she can remember them washing the dishes on Thanksgiving and then just laughing. They laughed so easily, and it was so refreshing to hear that they were able to carry that clipboard on their lap and engage in the present and accept what it is. But were able to properly hold those cares and concerns. 

Is that another illustration of what we’re seeing here? Yeah, I think so. Matt, I think that’s a great illustration of the heaviness of it. The weight of it is still there, but we’re not wrestling with it. We’re not trying to figure it out, and it doesn’t rob us of that laughter, of that joy, of that opportunity. To be filled up in the present doesn’t mean that we’re going to not continue to pray about it or continue to find active ways at some point to move forward on some things. But, but we’re able to put it in its proper place. And I think one of the things with that is this is hard, and it doesn’t feel good. 

And I think one of the promises in Scripture 1 John where it talks about our heart condemning us, right? If we’re in a place that God’s greater than our heart.  And so, we do see how faith is so foundational to allow us to have that relationship with our problems. 

Doesn’t it? It requires us to realize that we cannot be the savior of our problems. And when we realize that there is a Savior to our problems and who that Savior is, then it allows us to hold those cares and concerns and problems on our lap as opposed to in our face. Yeah. It helps us zoom out and trust that God’s got a bigger story going on. 

It doesn’t make it easy, but it can give us something to rest in within the midst of things that are unbelievably hard that you wouldn’t wish on anybody and that are just heart wrenching. What a relief that there is such wonderful hope and it just makes me smile when we go back to Christ and see him model this. Exactly. Did he live in the present? Absolutely. The kids climbed all over him. The disciples were thinking about the future and about the past and worrying about this and he’s like, move on. What do you mean, kids are here? And so, he was able to live in that present in a beautiful way because of his larger understanding of God’s plan and how he fits in that plan.  

This has given a tremendous amount of hope as we think about living in the present and living with acceptance. And that’s not denying our problems but accepting them for what they are. My brothers, thanks for being here. We look forward to future conversations. Listeners, thanks for being with us today. We trust you’ve been blessed. 

Welcome back to Breaking Bread, a podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. We’re picking up a conversation with Brian Suiter and Kaleb Beyer. Welcome back guys to the show. Thanks Matt. Good. We are picking up a conversation about living joyfully in the journey which sometimes is a trial. 

We’ve talked in past podcasts about living intentionally, living in the present, and living with acceptance. And now today we want to talk about living with thanksgiving. Kaleb, help unpack that a little bit. What do we mean by living with thanksgiving and how does that have anything to do with the joyful life? 

There are a number of references throughout Scripture that we’re reminded to be thankful, right? It’s really about expressing gratitude for goodness in our lives, or the goodness in the lives of others. It doesn’t mean that it always comes easily. Or that it comes naturally, but it’s something that is good for us. 

And I think the beauty that I look forward to unpacking is how that can bring joy to our life, which seems a little bit counterintuitive right off the start, that being thankful would be a part of the prescription for joyful living, whereas typically we might think that thanksgiving might be the outgrowth of a joyful life. 

Am I right with that juxtaposition? We are called in Scripture to thankfulness. Period. And so, that’s going to be a lot more difficult when we’re not starting in a place that’s easy or things are going our way, and then we’re thankful. But what does it look like? 

To start with, thankfulness regardless of circumstances. And I think first and foremost for us as believers to be able to be thankful because we know of God and his goodness, and that’s really the foundation of where we start. So therefore, no matter what our circumstances are, we can focus on that, but no doubt that’s a challenge.  

You’ve got me as your client here across the table with a furrowed brow saying, all right, I’m supposed to be thankful. You’ve got this one, Kaleb. I’ve just come to you and shared all these problems. Okay, but how do you counsel your clients who are going through hard stuff, and you bring up this thanksgiving piece and they furl their brow and look at you and say, seriously. Now, what are some of the talking points that you give to help bring that person to the point of thankfulness?  

If we’re working with somebody or even ourselves in the midst of really hard, painful things, we would not start with thankfulness. I think we would start with mourning and weeping with them and hurting. So, if that’s where you’re at, that’s part of the journey, but the process of then moving into, okay, it is hard, and now I want to start looking for those small things. What does it look like to rejoice in the fact that there’s food on the table, even though I don’t want to eat it, right? 

What does it look like to be able to say, thank you, Lord, even in the midst of not feeling it, not even wanting to do that. And that’s a really painful, deep place to start, but it’s a wonderful sacrifice. What I hear from this too is a bit of normalizing what we mean by thankfulness. And I think coming into this conversation we might think that thankfulness is easy. Thankfulness is automatic. Thankfulness comes out when I am thankful. Yeah. But what you’re suggesting is quite different. And I think that’s encouraging. Yeah, that is the point. 

And I think it even goes back to some of the earlier podcasts that we talked about, but that just accepting the fact that this is hard. Allowing yourself to be in difficulty while you struggle and you fight for thankfulness, that is a good thing to do. Even though it’s very painful that we’re in spots that, quite frankly, we aren’t thankful to be in but even beginning the practice of expressing that even when we don’t feel it can be a step right in the right direction. Yeah.  

You know, I think of Paul and Silas in prison in the Philippian jail, right? And they are singing praises to God. And the question that occurred to me is I’ve often thought that they must have been happy, therefore they were singing. Or was happiness an outgrowth of their singing? You know what I’m saying? Do you follow that? I do. And I think too, that’s a great example of it depends on how you look at your circumstances. So, for them it was, we’re counted worthy to suffer for the gospel. And out of that pours thanksgiving. It makes me think that every good and perfect gift comes from above. 

And that as we begin to cognize and cultivate that gratitude and thanksgiving as hard as it is, it points us back to the author or the giver of those good things. And so, it connects us with the source of life. And so, you’ve made a direct link, Kaleb, to being thankful and being faithful, having faith. And so, we might link these two terms together. It requires faith to be thankful. Am I right with that? Oh, I think so. I think it requires faith when you read a verse, whatever that is, to believe that, to hold onto that and rejoice in that when everything around you seems the opposite. Exactly. It seems contrary to that, and it takes faith to walk through that.  

And now, that brings some clarity to me, like, oh, that’s why God asked me to be thankful because he is good. Worship to him and is evidence of faith towards him. So, you’re challenging me to a much more mature view of Thanksgiving than what we might be teaching to our children to say thank you after something. 

Right? Yes. Yeah. You know, I’m fascinated a little bit by where thanksgiving arises in history. We have the Thanksgiving holiday and what did that come out of? Well, it came out of an awful winter at Plymouth, right? And then we have Abraham Lincoln setting that aside as a national holiday. 

Well, when did he do that? That was during the Civil War. I believe Martin Ringer in a battle on the cusp of being under siege in Germany wrote this hymn Now, thank We all are God. So, we see that some of the most profound and impactful thanksgivings in history come on the cusp of what you’re speaking of here today. 

Yeah. I think it is one of those fascinating things in life where our natural tendency is to give me the easy road and then I’ll be thankful. But always in Scripture, and I think as you’re just describing there in history, it says that through hard things, it helps us see the things when they are positive or when they are good. 

And out of that portion thanksgiving is not necessarily just to wake up and every day is 70 degrees. And you know, I remember I was so impacted when I was a young man. There was an older brother who stood up and prayed to start off Sunday school that morning, and it was just a terrible, awful day. 

The only reason I remember that is because he said, Lord, thank you for days like this that make me grateful for the days that are 65 and nice. And I’m like, what is this guy talking about? But it just stuck with me. It was just fascinating. And that day was redeemed in terms of its worth. 

Yeah. Right. He saw the value in it and saw that even though by the very nature of the day, it was not necessarily a good day. It cultivated thankfulness because he anticipated the good that was down the road, or he remembered the good that he experienced before. Yeah. That was contrasted by the struggle that was there and that’s a huge aha for me, even right now. Thanksgiving redeems the situations in our life. So, I feel like it really is incumbent upon the answer to this question I’d like to pose to you brothers, because I feel like if depending on the answer to this question, I see Thanksgiving as doable, but without, I don’t see it doable. 

And that is this, is God possible to wield good out of every dark situation of my life? I. Because if the answer to that question is yes, then, okay, I can muster up Thanksgiving. But if the answer to that is no, then I think this is just pie in the sky stuff. That’s right. You’re exactly right that if God is able to redeem then there’s hope and then thanksgiving makes sense, but if it’s not, there’s nowhere to go and nowhere to turn. So, I think, in my mind, a fundamental key to thanksgiving is seeing God for who he is and being able to trust that he’s big enough to have all of it in his hands, even though it doesn’t make sense to you right here, right now. It may not make sense to anybody. 

But we say, I trust the one that’s over all of this. Yeah. And I think that connects that piece of faith, the foundation piece, or connecting the faith with thanksgiving, even when I can’t see it, when I don’t have the ability to bring it to mind that in this darkness or struggle that God can bring light that he can that he can redeem it. And I think that actually speaks right out of the writings of some of the sages of the past. I think of St. John of the Cross who would write and talk about how, when all of the five senses fail, you’re left with faith. And that’s what I’m hearing a little bit, and I think that my Thanksgiving in the past has been propped up by my five senses. 

But what you’re suggesting is that sometimes when the five senses fail us, and then we are left only with the facts of God, can I worship and be thankful? And when I do, I worship faithfully in the truest sense. Yeah. And there are some of you right now who are in the midst of the dark and difficult and I want to encourage these things in you. 

And I would also say, those of you who are not, this is a great time to just pour foundation. Try over the next week that when you thank the Lord it’s not about any of your circumstances. It’s based on who God is versus what he’s given you. Like it’s okay to thank him for the food that’s on your plate but try to be bigger than that this week to build a foundation that says, Lord, I am grateful because I know you are the provider. 

Does that make sense? Yeah, I think so. Can you speak from experience, having talked to a lot of clients and more broadly than that, your life experience that you have found. You have interacted with people with great deep hurts who have exercised this and thereby have lived joyfully. I would say yes to that. And as I reflect on who I want to be at the end of life’s road, what do I want to look like? I think of men and women that I’ve either sat across from or that I’ve met with over lunch or interacted with life those are the kinds of men and women that I’m just like, Lord, give me that. 

So, you’re saying yes to my question, you have interacted with them. And I’ll give you a chance, Kaleb, to jump in on this as well, but you’re also saying, Brian, that the most compelling life is one that if you could embody or example, it would be that one. 

Yes. Yeah. And I think, to go back to your point earlier, that when you see that in people, you see it forged not by freedom of challenges, but you see that forged in them walking through, through the challenge. Yes. Through the fires. Those are the men and women who seem to have that. So, the thing that I have to remind myself of is that if that’s what I want, I don’t get the good end to it without the other. So that means I’m going to go through fires and depending on how I walk through that and where my mindset is, that either takes me to the place where I want to go or it takes me to the other side of that bitter, angry, everything is awful perspective and we’ve seen that as well. 

And that’s not a place we want to end either. That’s terrific. And to answer your question, I absolutely think that’s the beauty of being able to walk alongside individuals who walk through those struggles and to see come out of that thanksgiving part. And to see the life and light shine through darkness is to walk with individuals who are in a hard place or couples in a hard place, and then to witness how God redeems that. 

And how motivating that is and now that speaks to the joy that we’re talking about here. I can think if we have a difficult situation that we’re carrying, right, and it drains us of joy. Before this conversation, I would’ve thought, okay, we want to be joyful. That means we need to resolve this situation. After all, it is draining my joy. But you’re suggesting in this conversation that there are two ways, probably more, but two ways. Well, resolve that situation so that you’re happy with it, but one that we can do right now would be to give thanks in it. Yeah. And we acknowledge this is not easy. 

Yeah. And I think in doing that, in the midst of it, another thing that can hang people up is this belief that, well, if I’m going to be thankful, that means I need to feel it. And you’re not always going to feel it. That’s not a requirement for thankfulness. So, here’s a hypothesis. 

The more difficult it is, the more worshipful it is. Do you think that’s true? Yeah. The more difficult the issue to give thanks, the more faith that we are relinquishing to God. I think that’s an option. Yes. You know, I think that’s helpful. Yeah. That sometimes the darker the situation, the more poised we are to give glory to God through the avenue of things. Yes. Yeah. And I think if we can look at it through that perspective again, it gives us hope and gives us a lens through which to be thankful. But if we look at it through the lens of this is too big for me, or why, or this doesn’t make sense. 

Then the bigness of how dark it is takes us down that road of Satan being able to devour us. So, I think you’re right. The darker the night, the bigger the redemption and the glory and you see that commonly through the Scripture. You know, the Lord strips away and strips away and strips away until there’s no other hope than him. 

If he doesn’t show up, you’re done. Right. I love this story, and you probably have read it. And our listeners are probably aware of the story of Corey ten Boom. The Hiding Place is the book that she wrote. And she and her sister were in a concentration camp at Ravensbrook and they had fleas in the camp barracks just awful. 

And it was miserable. And Betsy, Corey’s sister, turns to Corey and says, Corey, we need to give thanks for the fleas. And Corey said, alright, stop already. You know, you’ve been telling me to be thankful this whole journey, and I’m putting a stop at the fleas. There’s no reason we need to be thankful for these fleas. 

Well, they were thankful for the fleas and on and on it goes. And it wasn’t until afterwards; they found out that the guards at Ravensbrook would not go into their barracks because of the fleas. And because they weren’t coming into the barracks, they had Bible studies and led women to Christ. 

Wow. It was the fleas. But we’re not wise enough to know what we shouldn’t give thanks for. Yeah. I think that’s a powerful reminder that if we could see things through God’s eyes, we would always give thanks. But we’re not always given that privilege and therefore, it comes back to faith of trusting that he is working out something good here, even in the midst of things that cannot be good in our mind and in our eyes.  

Yeah. Which I think really ties back into some of the intentionality pieces, right? As we think about that, this doesn’t come naturally and we’re not able to see it. It becomes a practice in cultivating something that’s a process over time that we continually come back to. It’s not a point that we achieve or get to. It’s something we grow into.  

And Brian, I took away this point from some of the things that you mentioned, that we should probably be practicing this now. Maybe I’m in a situation right now that doesn’t have a lot of hurts in my life and maybe things are going smoothly. Some of our listeners may think life is going smoothly. Should we expect that thanksgiving is going to bubble forth when we’re tried if we’re not actively being thankful in the good times? Yeah. I mean that does seem to be incongruent. Yeah, I think that’s just such an important thing for all of us to remember that we are called to this no matter where we’re at, and if we don’t practice it and cultivate that in our lives when there aren’t really difficult circumstances, to try to build that and start that in the midst of hurt and pain is setting us up for a harder road. And so, it’s wise to start right here, right now.  

Yeah. I think the analogy of gardening and putting the seed in the ground that brings forth the fruit is a good analogy here of planting the seed and attending to it and fertilizing it so that the fruit of gratitude and thanksgiving can continue to come forward. And I’m challenged by this conversation just to even think, how do I teach my children? Okay. Because you know what? It has been on the tail end of circumstance. So maybe the next time they’re sad, I should say, sweetie, let’s give thanks for that. Right?  

And you didn’t get something from somebody. Well, let’s say thank you. Yeah. Yeah. Dad, you have lost it. What are you talking about? You need reeducation on thanksgiving. That’s right. Yeah. I mean, you give that silly example, but it’s so true. It just speaks to how much that goes against our nature and therefore doing this is so hard and it’s really Christian. 

I don’t know how you could have this viewpoint or have this lifestyle without having faith in God and be a Christian. Yeah. Right. What is thanksgiving outside of that understanding? Oh, my goodness. If you don’t have that context, that in the darkness there is redemption, there is light. It’s law. I mean you have to wait for the result. Yeah. If the circumstances don’t change, there’s nothing to be thankful for. Yeah. I mean, that’s all it would be based on, apart from a biblical worldview that says God is in control. He’s at work here. All life has value, all life was created in his image, so on and so forth, without those fundamental things present, thankfulness is a shallow thing based on circumstances.  

Brothers, thank you. This, I think, is so hugely important and I think speaks just exactly to what we’re talking about with being joyful. And this is a huge action point, very challenging for me. I know that it’s impactful and will be impactful in the way that I think from this day forward. 

I’d like to conclude just by painting a brief picture of Jesus. He’s there on the mountainside and there’s 5,000 around him. Everybody’s hungry. There’s no food to be eaten. He’s getting approached by people. He’s no doubt, you know, worn thin. He calls a little boy aside. They get this small sack lunch. 

And in the midst of that, the first thing Jesus does is he gives thanks. Isn’t that amazing? And then out of that thanksgiving, pour sustenance, food, everything they wanted. Isn’t that what we’re speaking of today? That in the midst of that need, Jesus expressed as a reaction thanksgiving. 

And then blessings follow. Yep. Yeah. Thanks again for being with us and bringing clarity to these issues. And to our listeners, thanks for listening. We trust that you have been blessed. And again, feel free always to visit our website at accounseling.org for further resources. 

Goodbye. 

Welcome back to Breaking Bread. We’re anxious to conclude and finish up this important conversation about living joyously in the journey. Brothers Brian Sutter and Kaleb Beyer are back with me. Thanks for coming guys. Good to be here, Matt. Thanks. We’re going to talk about child likeness. Yeah. Awesome. Saving the best for last.

That’s right. Yeah. What do we have to look forward to, Brian? Yeah, it’s just a great opportunity to step back and learn from the young hearts that are around us that many times do life and have joy in life. So much better than we do living in childlikeness. What does that mean, Kaleb?

Well, definitely this isn’t about being childish, right? We want to first clarify this. That’s a slight distinction there. Well, you better make that distinction clear, Kaleb, or I’m going to take liberty with this phrase. Oh. Yeah, I think we look at Jesus and we look at his life, and I think we’ve talked about that previously, how he engaged children, how he had a love for children.

And when we think about the aspect of being childlike, we think of their innocence. I think of their ability to trust. Right. Unless you become like a child, he said. Yep. And their ability to just imagine. In the moment, one of the things for our kids is they put on a rodeo, right?

And so, they drag out all this stuff and you get the tape player out, but they love it and they’re just enjoying it. And so, just in the moment. Spontaneous? Yes. Living in the present as we have previously mentioned.

Yeah, definitely. I think it’s in my mind, it’s appropriate this follows living with an appreciative heart in the sense that one of the things that I often try to remind myself to use the analogy of swimming. If I stay in the deep end of the pool, eventually I’m going to drown.

Right. So, if I’m always trying to sort out deep hard theological or just challenges of life, eventually I get I drowned. So, it’s really important for me to swim to the shallow end of the pool where you could stand, where I can just stand on the very simple, basic things. And I think kids are so very good at that.

Like you’re talking about there, Kaleb, because if we don’t do that, eventually we just get drowned out by the challenge. Yeah. And I think it’s so freeing just to be able to say, it’s important to just be simple here sometimes, that it’s just important to just trust sometimes. And I don’t have to have it figured out.

I don’t have to know. I don’t only have to have an answer. I can just celebrate and live apart from the reality that it’s hard sometimes. Are you giving me liberty then, Brian, to enjoy the comics in the newspaper and just enjoy reading there every day.

Or do I need to look over my shoulder? Yeah, I think that’s exactly right. That it’s just good to be able to laugh and to be able to have those simple things that just touch your heart, you know? And I think that’s so neat, so good. Absolutely. I think of Proverbs. How does it say? A merry heart does good like a medicine. Yeah, it does good like a medicine. The aspect of laughter is well known even in secular research how laughter is good for us as humans and I think just that ability to step back, enjoy, appreciate, and be able to laugh together.

It doesn’t mean we’re doing this all day long, but to be able to be purposeful. We need to be purposeful about it, but it’s an amazing creation. Isn’t laughter an amazing creation? I mean, you go and maybe you’ve been on some short-term mission trips or whatever. I’m always amazed how much we laugh.

In fact, the same thing strikes us funny whether you’re in Ethiopia in Haiti or Jamaica. Yeah. You know, we laugh about things and then if you think about God’s creation of it, how it tightens our diaphragm, and we go up and down and we laugh. Why? For the survival of the species.

I’m not real sure. Right, oh, there must be another reason. Yeah. I think there’s something deeply connecting about that though. When you engage in that with a group. I even think of families. And I think of an author and a speaker who once talked about how he would go to different events and see different families interacting and enjoying each other. One of the common themes that he found between this group of families is that they would camp. They’d go out and do camping together. And he had never camped before, so he’s like, we’re going to go do this. And it’s a total disaster. It’s a flat tire, it rains, but he said, we laughed about that.

The rest, I mean, we still laugh about it. And just how those memories connected them in a very deep way. Yeah. And I think that’s where sometimes we just, we just take ourselves too seriously. You know? And of course that’s a part of life. And we want to do that, but at times too, it is good to just let our hair down to laugh with each other to do silly things.

Yeah. It’s just those simple things that maybe only are funny for you or maybe are only funny for your family and to have those precious things that mean something to you guys that’s being childlike. Yeah. That’s great. Yeah. Brothers give us some practical things. For a stick in the mud like me, I need a little help. Loosen me up. Yeah. Well I think even just a small thing would be to think about when you get home to try to have one story from your day that’s going to crack a smile from somebody that you know. If you’re married and have kids, somebody in your family, if you’re single and home alone, you know, you make a phone call to a friend and you share that story, just to have something that is small.

It doesn’t have to be a deep belly laugh, right, but it just cracks a smile. Right.  Something fun. And I can visualize that around the dinner table. Yes. Going around and saying, what was something amusing today? Or what was something that caught your fancy Yeah. And be okay with it just being really simple, really small.

I think sometimes we think it’s gotta be something really big. And maybe it’s just the fact that you noticed that there was a bird that flew into a window. Yeah. And you know what, another one around the table would probably pick that story up and make it a little bit better or say something else. Right. And all of a sudden, we find that there is laughter just right underneath the surface when we’re together. And I think stories are a great way that God uses to tap in to emotion. And definitely happiness and joy would fit into that.

And laughter is certainly contagious. Absolutely. Yes. I mean, have you ever been in a group where there was just one yuck it up, you know? Yeah. Only one person laughing, just having a great time. No, it spreads. Yes. And all of a sudden everybody is laughing and has caught that. I think that was part of God’s design and his creation of the laugh.

Yeah, I think so. One of the things that we really enjoy is family videos, spending some time going back and it’s just hilarious. The kids love it too. The memory lane. See themselves when they were, you know, 1-year-old and cooing and that tie you’re wearing is so funny. Yeah, all we have to do is look at ourselves, and then we should be laughing. Yes. And if we can do that, if we can laugh about ourselves or even I think for us as good Germans. You know, one of the things we really value is hard work and being really frugal.

Those are good things, but you know what? On your way home, stop at the gas station and buy a thing of chocolates and hand that out to your friends or your neighbors or your family. You know? I’m all for budgets, but there’s a dollar-fifty you can probably work with. You know, once a month and the gain that you would get on that dollar-fifty would be a great investment.

Yes. Brothers, thanks for being on this show and sharing this very important topic. I think a lot of life was shared and a lot of truth. And that’s our intention here with Breaking Bread, an important topic such as being joyful. You know, we started the podcast talking about how joy doesn’t translate to the face, oftentimes.

Speak of the importance of that right here as we close that, if we are not living joyfully as a believer, what is at stake? Yeah. I think that is good. You know, an important thing for us to remember that abiding in Christ, having salvation in Christ, is a worthy thing to be able to communicate just through our faces.

One of my goals on Sunday morning when I stand in the room in Sunday School and the brothers are along the wall and all the kids are sitting in the pews, my hope is that I am happy and smiling and that they can see from my face that I am excited to be there, that I love singing to the Lord.

And I, really try to do that with my face. And I think that’s important for all of us to think about. That’s a small way that I try to do that. And that’s one way that the world knows that this Jesus thing works. Yes. I think even as we interact outside of that with unbelievers.

Or wherever that’s at, is that this treasure we have is glowing forth not only in, but we also don’t just keep it in here. But we allow it to radiate forth. And I think some of these things take effort and energy, but allow that light, that joy, that vibrancy to happen. Yeah.

And we read that 1 Peter chapter 3, that they will ask the reason of the hope that is within us. And when they see that hope first on our faces and then out of our lips then they’ll ask because they’ll want it too. What a wonderful thing. And so, just to recap, we’ve talked about living intentionally. Number two, we talked about living in the present. Number three, we talked about living with acceptance. Number four, we talked about living with an appreciative heart. And number five, we concluded with living in childlikeness. Listeners, I trust and pray that this has been a blessing for you and again, always feel free and we welcome you to visit our website whereby you might find helpful resources as you live in this challenging world with all kinds of demands upon us that we might live joyfully.