Disagreement in Marriage Podcast

Part of the goal, again, is not just knowing your spouse, but also having a process where you continue to learn more about yourself. Why is that so important to you and what does it look like to go under the surface? Welcome, everyone, to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

Excellent to have you along. I’ve got Kaleb Beyer with me today. It’s good to be with you, Matt. We talk all things marriage. I’m looking forward to this conversation, Kaleb. You always choose very pertinent topics I think marriages are interested in because they’re very relevant. 

So go ahead and set up today’s topic. Today’s topic is Renewing through Differences. So, one of the things that happens in our marriages, which Matt, maybe you and Rebecca can relate to. I know Ange and I can, is that at times we have desires or dreams or values that can be in conflict. 

And those types of conflict are particularly challenging, a little different than I want to go to Burger King, and you want to go to Taco Bell, this sort of thing. And so, what we’d like to talk about is when they get into conflict, what are some helpful things to think about, consider, to work through that conflict? 

All right, conflict. You are narrowing the scope of what the conflict is we’re talking about. We’re talking about conflict as it happens in our values and dreams. That needs a bit of unpacking so that we can get our mind around what we’re talking about. Sure. So, let’s consider some examples. Let’s say one spouse really appreciates and values private family time. 

Not that the other spouse doesn’t appreciate that, but there is something very special and unique and meaningful about their own kind of family time together. Yes. And another spouse, they appreciate being connected, involved, and they feel it’s very purposeful and meaningful to be on committees or boards or just engaging, and that’s how they pour into purposeful, meaningful things. 

And so, free time is going to be a place of conflict for that couple. One is going to see that free time as family time, and the other one is going to see free time as service to the community or other places. Another example is just a couple where one spouse is very missional oriented and so in that sense as we think about missional this could be the mission field, but this could be just down the street and they were really pouring their life and maybe desiring to pour their family in that type of lifestyle. And the other spouse is more stability focused, meaning long term, and even considering the future, not just financially, but other physical aspects of the future of the family. 

And both are important here. You’ll notice, Matt, as we go through these examples, this isn’t like a right or a wrong, which makes it so difficult. There’s very good argumentation on both sides. Yes. And both have Scripture to back up their points. Right. Yeah.  

I think this is helpful to get examples. Yes. Give us another one. At times this comes up, Matt, where one spouse really appreciates and likes it orderly, neat, and organized in certain places in the home. And the other feels like home is a place to be free. Should I tell you that you’re smiling and it’s working right now? Let’s just keep that between us, Matt.  

I’m going to let the audience try to see in this situation, there is something behind just being orderly and organized. And being casual about home being a place where things can lay around and it’s not that big of a deal. Clearly that can create some conflict. It sure can. And it has many layers to it. Yes, from the vehicle that you would want to drive and how we’re going to spend our money on that type of thing is going to be different, and people have different values about those things, and things that are more or less important. 

Yeah. And I think the difficulty with this type of conflict, when these are deeply held values and desires, they fuel more intense emotion around the conflict. Yeah. Which then inadvertently makes it more difficult to walk through in a healthy way that leads to a sense of understanding and empathy and oneness. 

You know, at the core of the instruction of being equally yoked in the Bible is really this point that there is nothing more important than our faith. So, in that way we’re aligned, but really, you’re raising the point that in no way are we going to be completely agreeable on every matter of importance. 

And so, you’re saying some of the most difficult conflicts to work out in a marriage are these matters. Yes. Because they’re really core to who we are. And they’ve been formed over the years and what makes it difficult is that when these interactions play out, this conflict plays out over time, it can become more positional, in the sense that it feels like giving an inch is giving a mile. And about something really important to you.  

So, Kaleb, let’s get right into it then. What are the first steps here as we think about having a difficult conversation with each other about these high stakes conflicts? Sure. The first thing, Matt, is just consider the context of the relationship and where the relationship, our relationship, is at. Are we in a place to have this conversation? And if so, what are things to think about that may influence the way in which we have this conversation? All of those pieces are really helpful, even before we get into the actual dialogue, of the conflict and what are the things that we should be looking at to help us understand that? 

Sure. The first thing is just to consider how long this conflict has been going on and how high on the list you’d place this value in conflict. So, am I talking about something that is knit to my core which is very different than a value that’s developed over the last two months. Yes. Exactly. And that is going to fuel a different reaction, emotionally, and the intensity of that reaction gives us an idea of what the project looks like. All right. Yep. So, we have that. The next would be to consider really the climate of the relationship. If we’re in a relationship where there is a negative climate, which means, Matt, that our tendency is to attribute negative intention in our spouse’s behavior, then that’s probably not a good context to step into having a difficult conversation about our values, our dreams, our things that are important. So, can our relationship sustain the conversation? 

Right. Is really what you’re asking. Yeah. And what if it can’t? Then, if it can’t, we need to start first by building that friendship. Because what can happen is relationally, if we’re always focused on the conflict, the differences, and we don’t build and foster that sense of gratitude and friendship and closeness, it actually inhibits us from handling conflict in a healthy way. 

So how then would you coach, how would you coach this conversation now for a couple who’s ready for it? Yeah. So, Matt, if we have a relationship, a marriage relationship, where there’s positive climate, there’s a few ingredients that are present. One is humility. By humility, what I mean is, there’s a level of recognition that I’m actually fueling part of this. 

And this is going to be hard for them. We care deeply about. And you take that very seriously. You do. Yeah. Patience, that this takes time. Growth takes time. Working through conflict takes time. This isn’t a once and done conversation. This is an ongoing dialogue that we have together that actually really is less about the end as much as it is the process of learning and growing and knowing our spouse more deeply. 

You know, so many times though, these points of crisis are pressure and time prompted, which makes patience difficult, Kaleb, right? It’s when the property next door’s up for sale. All of a sudden dreams are up for grabs. You know what I mean? And we don’t have that luxury to see the process out very often. 

I’m just saying. Yeah. I think sometimes we get caught on the wrong end of this. Yes. Yes. It’s when the, like you said, the crisis happens and then it fuels intense emotion, right? And then leads to interactions that are more reactive than proactive, but the encouragement nonetheless is to be patient, which makes sense. 

We don’t change our ideals quickly, right? And we probably shouldn’t. Yeah. And expect our spouse to do the same. Yeah. Another ingredient is just empathy being able to, we say sometimes, walk in the other’s shoes and let them know that their thoughts, their feelings, their experiences matter to you. 

It’s important. Because sometimes when we get caught in these conflicts, the unintended message is that they don’t matter. That we don’t want to hear. We don’t want to understand. We’re in positional places. And that reactivity and those messages can be really hurtful. Compassion is another ingredient. 

Your pain matters to me. You hurt. And when you hurt, I want to know about it. I want to understand. And that deeply moves me. And it’s just a shared purpose that we need to step into this process of engaging this dialogue. That there’s a shared purpose that we say, this would be a good idea. I mean, if one is saying, I’m not interested, and the other one’s really pushing for it, we need to be together. 

Yeah. I think so. Now, we vary on how quickly I’m going to step into conflict versus my spouse. Some of us are more conflict avoidant. Some of us are more ready to have a conversation about conflict. The purpose of renewal through differences broadens the goal. This isn’t about getting to the end of conversation, have agreement, that then we’re done. 

We have to remember that this process is renewing in us, in our hearts, in our relationship, what conflict is intended to do. Yeah. Healthy conflict. You know, as you were saying all that too, to have a viewpoint that together we will win here as opposed to coming to the table with a desire for me to win. 

Yes. That’s really what you’re asking here with shared purpose. Yes. Are you committed to a we win situation? Yes. Committed to being influenced by your spouse. Yeah. And changed by your spouse. Yes. So, with those ingredients that now further articulate what this relationship looks like, who’s ready to step in to these high stakes conflict discussions on ideals. 

What does that conversation look like then? I use the terms soft and slow, and we think about having a conversation, again, of this level, we need to think soft and slow, because often what happens is, we’re going fast, and the intensity increases. So, one way to do that is, it’s more structured. We select roles. 

So Matt, as the two of us are talking here, you’re the speaker, I’m the listener. And in that role, Matt, you have the floor, meaning you share what’s on your heart, you’re not talking about how I see things, but how you do, and why this is so meaningful to you, and what’s behind this value and dream, what are experiences you’ve had that have really formed and shaped this for you? 

And as a listener, my role is not rebuttal, my role is not to convince you that my value is more important, it’s simply to be at a place that I’m curious, interested, perhaps ask questions, but in a way that I really want to know more about you. You know, it’s interesting when you talk about stepping into this process of communication, there have actually been long disciplines to do this. 

I think of parliamentary procedure, for example, I grew up as a student, whether it was an FFA or student council, you try to do this quasi-parliamentary procedure and all seems kind of hokey, right? Well, I happened to watch a reenactment of, I think, the signing of the Declaration of Independence or something like that, and it was all done in parliamentary procedure. 

And I remember for the first time realizing the importance of parliamentary procedure because without it, ideas can win before they should win. Right? Sure. It actually slows down and gives an architecture for dispute so that we can come to a good and healthy end. And it almost manages emotions. 

Yes. You know what I mean? Yes. Because you have to make a motion, it has to be seconded, and then it has to be voted on, and all of those things just slow it down. Isn’t that interesting? Yeah. It’s very as husband and wife, you know, not that we engage in parliamentary procedure, but that we do have a procedure. 

Yeah, and I really appreciate that example, and it just really brings home, I think, or at least this is what comes to mind, Matt, is when we’re able to slow down and quiet and calm, we think better, meaning we’re less reactive, we’re more open, right? Versus when it’s this tense, more reactive environment, our brain doesn’t work as good. 

It’s more tunnel vision, it’s more rigid, it’s not as flexible and as open, and I just think that makes a difference in what and how we’re saying things. All right, so I like that. As we move into this discussion, we should be giving some good thought to how to have the discussion. 

And not just to have the discussion. So, going on we have listener, speaker. Yeah. Now go on. So as the listener, even asking questions like, what is your ideal dream? Or tell me a story about your dream. Or if a miracle happened and your dream or your greatest value came true. Help me catch the vision. It doesn’t mean, yes, we’re going to do all that, but we need to hear that. And they need to share that. And that’s the goal. So, you allow filibusters then? With only two people, I wonder how voting works. Oh, I know, she gets two votes, you get one. That’s right. I get it. That’s right. I knew that already. 

So, the next thing, Matt, is just to monitor when the signs of escalation happen. That’s both within yourself and within your spouse. So, when we’re in conversation about something that is really important with someone who is really important. How do I know when I start to become reactive, or my spouse is becoming reactive? 

And we need to monitor that and say, again, we’re looking at the long term versus the short term. Meaning, maybe we need to table this, go on a walk, do something else, right? To be able to calm and quiet. So maybe we need to have several conversations, right? You know, as you say that Kaleb, it’s very contrary to how we would have an argument where we want to get our way. 

Because if you see the other person getting flustered or whatnot, that’s when you make your closing remarks, right? And you finish the deal. But because you’ve already set forward a positive climate and shared purpose, when you see your spouse in distress, you’re in distress too. 

That is a we win. Yes. That’s really not reactivity. It’s not a more closed rigid response, but it’s an open response that says actually, at the end of the day, I want my spouse, I want their dreams and desires to come true. I want to be part of actually helping that to happen. 

Obviously within, you know, the context of what is biblical truth and it’s possible. Yeah, what’s possible. Absolutely. But I want to be part of that and not see that as somehow a barrier standing in my way and so that’s good. So, then the final aspect that we walk through after there is a sense of understanding, meaning that your spouse is able to say, I feel you’ve captured and you caught my vision, my dream, my desire. 

You get it. We don’t reach this mark when I think I understand, right? I reached this mark when she feels it. So, once we’re at that place, then we move into the next piece, which we would refer to as the circle of compromise. Okay. So, this is where we have dialogue about, so if you draw a large circle, the circle of flexibility. So, when it comes to orderly and neat, maybe there are certain rooms in the house, or maybe there’s certain things like the dirty clothes that really get you, but the rest of things like toys laying around isn’t maybe that big of a deal. So, first each spouse draws a large circle and says, this is what I have some flexibility on related to this conflict that we’re having, this value conflict we’re having. 

And so, each spouse fills out that circle. Okay. As large as possible is the flexible, and then as small as possible, the circle that we would, we would refer to as inflexible, or these would be hard areas. This is what’s really important. And I think what you said there was really important. 

You try to make that flexible as large as possible. You’re really pushing yourself to say, okay, all right. I need things cleaned up Friday night. I need that. Okay. So, maybe not every night, but I need to know Friday night, for example. And then in that very constricted middle area is like, boy, this is what I have to have. 

Yes. Right. And really making that as small as possible. But then after both spouses walk through that exercise, you share. So, what kind of temporary exercise can we step into and practice and try out and see how it works and continue to have dialogue? And we try that out. 

What are some of the surprising things that you have found as you’ve helped marriages go through this? What are some of the surprising things sometimes that people walk away with? Because I think some people are going to say, oh, I can just imagine how that conversation is going to go. I don’t think I’m interested. 

Yeah. Sure. Sure. Is there something surprising about how it works? Sometimes what’s surprising is what’s underneath the value that I may be unaware of that be fueling the intensity and desire for that particular thing. So, let’s use the example of orderly and casual couple. So, for the spouse that has things orderly, that going through this dialogue leads to a place that, you know what? 

One of the things. Why I value this so much is it brings a place of peace and calm in the home, and when I was in my family, things were chaotic. And so, one way that I cope and experience the present day and why this is so important to me is I want to pass on something different to my kids. And so, the neatness and having things orderly and picked up is a place of peace for them in security. And security which couldn’t be further from my mind about what orderly means. Right, so to see that, I think, is really helpful because that now gives this exercise of compromise a lot of direction now that we know inside that little circle has got to be security. 

We have got to win security. Now let’s talk about getting that done. Yes. Right. Yeah, it really focuses and even your response there, Matt, I could see you’re on board and you’re ready to do that. Yeah. I would have to believe that most values come down to some very common ideals between us. Right. And it’s somewhat coming down to those common ideals to work from. Yeah. Now, this has been excellent. What conclusive remarks do you have for couples as they think through this, as they think through their own examples and their own marriages, as they might even consider their own climate and whether they’re ready to step into some of this. To be able to remember, to see it as a process. 

Yes. And for us to accept the discomfort of having these conversations. Part of the goal again is not just knowing your spouse, but also having a process where you continue to learn more about yourself and why is that so important to you? And what does it look like to go under the surface and to understand and unpack what are experiences or things that have happened that have led to this place for me are really healthy. 

And at another level, I think that can be a meaningful and purposeful journey together that creates deeper intimacy and oneness. Yeah, I love that. And you come out of that experience with a really solid we, don’t you? Now I start to own my wife’s values and she mine because we understand them at a deeper level which is going to bring about that unity that you described. 

Thanks so much for that very helpful advice and to our listeners we trust and pray that this was helpful to you and that you could see application in it. That you could also see a way forward in it and most importantly you see hope in it. Thanks, each one for being here.