When Our Kids Make Poor Choices Podcast

And that ties into that parental misbelief, doesn’t it? That if I’m a good Christian and I’m doing it right, my kids are going to look like this. They’re going to act like this. They’re going to say this, they’re going to do this. And that looks beautiful on paper, on the poster, on the wall, but that usually doesn’t mesh up very well with the reality that we struggle with. 

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent, as always, to have you along. Parenting when our children make bad choices. Craig Stickling and Brian Sutter are here with me. We want to acknowledge the variety of matters that come to bear. Those things vary with age. From a 10-year-old to a 25-year-old, it’s very different. 

I also want to put another axis in here, and that I’m going to call bad choices. They are those choices that perhaps are bad by everybody’s estimation, even our kids making them. It might be a morally bad decision to those I’m going to call foolish decisions, even though it’s not morally wrong or it’s a decision that can be made, but it’s a foolish decision. 

Does that make sense? So, we’ve got this age spectrum, and we also have that axis as well. But I think that’s an important starting point that our kids are going to make poor choices and we don’t have to like that, but that is an important expectation, I think, to start with. And thankfully, Brian, as you mentioned that the Word of God captures those decisions that people have made throughout history, even in good men and good women in the Bible, that there were difficulties and challenges. 

And I love how the Bible captures that for us. You might even say the Bible is the story of bad choices and what to do on the tail end of it, right? Exactly. Yes. That is going to be part of the story, but there’s hope, there’s remedy. And I think that’s also a really important lens to keep in mind here is that when we recognize our own bad choices, if there’s some degree of hope or there’s some path forward through it, that’s really hopeful and exciting. And I think offers a lot of opportunity moving through it. Whereas if there’s no remedy, if there’s no hope in the end, no hope for restoration, then that tends to just breed more and more bad choices. 

Craig, you must, as a counselor in the junior high setting, confront students who are making poor choices, bad choices, or foolish decisions, all the above on a daily basis, don’t you? Yeah. What insights do you see as you see them and even let’s juxtaposition their bad choice against their parents. 

What do you see going on in the home and what does that look like there? Yeah. I see kind of two things, Matt, that maybe run parallel here, but you have the child who is ignorant, and we use that in the word that they just don’t know, or they step into a new situation, and they don’t know what to do in that. 

So, they make a decision. They’re trying to problem solve. So, they’re going to make a decision, and they’re going to find out whether that was a good one or a bad one or a foolish one or a strong one. And then I think you step into that other side where those kids start to take a little bit of that own independent step now, right? 

I know what mom and dad have taught me. I know what they have shared with me, but I’m going to do this on my own. And I’m going to figure this out, I’m going to take this step on my own and go with it. And so, then you get that kid that’s resistant or rebellious or whatever you would call it, but you see that kid who starts to say, okay, mom and dad, thank you, but I’m now going to do this on my own.  

So, I think what you’ve just painted there, Craig, is part of the dynamic of this particular conversation. There is a relationship between our kids and the decisions they make and mom and dad. 

You just mentioned that distancing, right? And so, there is this relational element, which makes it tricky. Oh, it makes it so tricky. And I think for the mom and dad side of it, one of the things that we often see is when you start to see your child make poor decisions, it’s really hard not to take that personally. Certainly, mom and dad need to think about what they could learn from this. 

But also, to recognize that our kids and their poor choices don’t necessarily need to become, oh man, what did I do wrong? And swimming in that water actually distances us from the relationship when they really need us. And if we don’t personalize it, I think that puts us in a better position to be a resource for him or some help to that point. 

Exactly. I don’t know if you brothers have found this to be the case. Just working with people and young people, I find myself able to almost be more effective in helping decision making in another individual. I just have so much more patience, but when it comes to my own kids, my stress hits the ceiling pretty quickly. Yeah. I remember once I laughed. My wife was sharing with me and she was just like, you know, Craig, every time you talk to your daughter, it is always negative. And I was like, well, yeah, because all she’s doing is negative things. And she was like, but you’re not seeing the other stuff, right? 

And in my school job, I could be looking at the positives and pulling out strengths, but at home she was pushing my buttons on things, and it was so easy for me just to see the negatives. 

 It’s so important to have people that can help us see where we’re erring because when it’s something that’s so close to us like our kids we often don’t see it and we need a spouse or we need somebody who’s walked that journey in front of us and say hey, wait, help me understand, is this more kind of that feeling of a foolish decision that I need to give them a little bit of space but help them see the potential wrong or is this really a bad decision that has really big consequences. And we may not be able to prevent them from either but even just that perspective helps put us in a very different position. 

 Okay, so I’m going to give you a prompt. I’d like you to respond. And that is this. As parents, our kids make a foolish decision. What should we remember? Remember this, mom and dad. How would you finish that sentence? First thing that comes to my mind is just to remember that Jesus was both grace and truth. And my child made a foolish decision. 

And I want to remember how I step into that with both lenses. There needs to be a truthful correction. There needs to be a piece that helps with that teaching, but there also needs to be a piece of grace. How do I bring in grace to where they’re at and in that moment with the ultimate goal of strengthening or growing or even preserving our relationship, not at the risk of it. 

I’m going to go die on this hill right now. Brian, what do you think? You know, I think another thought would just be to help them learn. That would be maybe the encouragement I would say there. And part of what I think was required for learning is that they’re able to be present and they’re not emotionally overwhelmed by the moment. 

And they’re not overwhelmed by either my disappointment or frustration. So, I can help them learn if I can stay calm and can even help lay out the different pieces for them that I don’t have to come in and be the consequence to them. I can help them see that if I can stay calm and just paint the picture for them.  

Give us some tips on how to engage that conversation of maybe fact-finding interrogation that doesn’t put them on their heels. Well, I think even just if you can start from a place of keeping your body posture. And a place that lets them see, okay, dad isn’t just ready to fly off of the handle, or mom isn’t ready, you know, I think that would be a helpful starting point and then from there, to kind of view yourself as an investigator, that’s just saying, hey, I’d just like to walk through this, help me understand what was going on and kind of starting with what I would call just information and high level basic information that’s not trying to pin them in a corner or not trying to say, hey, you should have, or this is where you went wrong, but really just information and exploration. 

So, Craig, I would imagine you do that a lot in your office, there with young people, that investigation piece. Something I found helpful, I wish I would have learned it earlier, and it kind of ties in Brian to that, stepping in, and that is, I don’t always have to respond right away. I don’t have to have a police car. 

You drove by me speeding. I’m turning on my lights and I’m chasing you down. But to be able to step in and acknowledge to one of our kids that a decision has been made and to be able to acknowledge that with them, but then to say, you know what, mom and I or dad and I, we’re going to come back to you on this because we’re going to have a conversation. 

And so right now is not the time, but we’re going to step back into that. That’s okay to do. And sometimes it’s going to be very helpful. Okay. One of my thoughts would be that this isn’t the end of the story, to recognize that a foolish decision may well end with outcomes that you foresaw, and that could have been prevented, but to recognize their foolish decision isn’t the end of the story. 

And perhaps then learning from their foolish decision is really what’s necessary so that they can make wise decisions in the future. And so, if you can hang in there with them and see hope and see, even through a foolish decision, a lot of learning and growth can come. I think that can be helpful. 

I think just to add on to that, Brian is to trust that that process of learning and that some learning is going to come through consequences that are going to be very logical. If you don’t pay your car insurance and your car insurance gets cancelled, or something like that, there’s going to be consequences that if we let them come into play, they’re going to be a great teacher. 

Obviously, our hearts are grievous for the really hard consequences where there’s a very high consequence or a loss like that. But there’s a lot of consequences in that other middle band that really, if we give it time, that can also be a very effective teacher. I really like both of those suggestions. 

And Brian, you’d mentioned hanging in there with them. I’d love you to expand on that. Why is it important to hang in there with them and what does hang in there with them look like? And let me just add this before I turn it over to you because here’s what I find difficult. I feel like sometimes when my adult children perhaps make a foolish decision that hanging in there with them looks like I’m sanctioning their decision. 

You know what I mean? That’s running in the background. And so, I’m finding myself always kind of reminding them that this was a poor decision every time. It just doesn’t work. I’m guessing that’s probably not what hanging in there with them looks like. So, what should I remember? Yeah. 

Well, one of the things that comes to mind there, Matt, is I think it’s really important for us to distinguish between what I would call acceptance and agreement that sometimes we have to accept the decision they’ve made. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that we agree with the decision, but it can feel like that. 

It can feel like accepting means I’m agreeing. And so, I think that would be a helpful distinction. No, I have to accept that this is the decision they’re making. And for me to hang in there with them, I think primarily means, what does it look like for me to maintain relationship that then maybe the target moves away from, how do I help protect them from this decision to how do I maintain relationship so that I’m in a place when or if it falls apart like I anticipate, that I can be a safety net that catches them. And if it goes better than I anticipate I’m able to walk beside them and say okay, well, that turned out. I didn’t expect that to, but okay. 

And I can keep walking with you as somebody who’s willing to learn. But nine times out of 10, I’m going to be that safety net that catches them. I really appreciate that acceptance concept because as parents, there is a loss, isn’t there? When our kids make foolish decisions or even make bad choices, there is a loss that we have to grieve.  

So, let’s look at the heart and the head of that 16- or 18-year-old or whatever, who has made poor decisions, made foolish decisions. Maybe he’s made very intentionally wrong decisions. Satan wants to draw them away and they feel like separating away. I’m a disappointment. I’ve let mom and dad down. The family’s upset with me. And the thought then is, well, okay, how do I deal with that? Well, I just separate myself. I try to isolate. And we have to almost run ahead and be at that point to meet them to say, wherever you run, you’re not going to be able to run away from us because we are here for you and we love you and we always want to engage them in that. 

Craig, that’s a beautiful picture you’ve just painted, a beautiful picture, because I dare say that a lot of families struggle with interpersonal relationships because of disagreeable decisions that members of the family have made. And we’re talking about decades and decades ago. Just by you talking about that, Craig brings this whole matter to a point of critical nature. 

Like this is a critical moment, these decisions and how we walk through them as a family with those who are making them. And in my opinion, that’s why it’s so important to keep relationships in view, because if that gets lost, even if you protect from the foolish decision or the bad decision, the consequences of that are likely to be very bad. 

Great. And that’s not to say that there’s not going to be bumps along the road in that relationship. I think that’s part of the journey. So, when you’re in a place of conflict with your team, that’s not to say, oh no, we’ve lost it. No, that’s like how you stay in a relationship in the midst of the conflict. 

I love the space analogy of when they talked about the earlier rockets and stuff and space things as they went around the moon, they always talk about the backside of the moon. You have an idea of where they’re at, but there’s no communication going on right now. And you’re just waiting for that gravitation of the moon to bring that ship back to earth, moving toward you again, and I often think there are the backside of the moon moments that we as mom and dad go through in that ability to stay engaged in our relationship and in our prayer and our thankfulness for our kids on the dark side of the moon.  

It makes a lot of sense. But what I like about it is the hope because they’re being held by something and it’s not you anymore. Yeah. And they’re being held by a larger gravitational body. And that being held really has the promise of them coming all around the other side, which I think is a beautiful hope that we have, don’t we? I think that is really beautiful. 

It also makes me think of, right now, our 12-year-old is in that place where we’re getting close to what we would anticipate can be a bumpy season and one of the things I’ve been so grateful for is one of our close friends has just been faithfully over the last year or so, telling our 12 year old, you are going to be best friends with your mom someday. 

And it’s been such a good thing. And she is convinced that there’s no way that’s possible. But I think what a gift to just prophesy that into her life and just plant those seeds and knowing that we may be coming into the dark side of the moon, but we’ve got opportunity for communication here when it does go dark. 

To have something in place that is just hope on the other side. And like you’re saying, there’s community in place through that that can be protective. And then when we come out on the other side, that maybe some of those things by God’s grace come to fruition. What a beautiful thing with so much hope. 

That’s neat. I appreciate it. You mentioned earlier, Brian, about, it’s not over in our kids’ stories and we’re sometimes quick to put question marks or periods or exclamation points. And actually, that’s just a good colon place or a comma place and to be reminded of that and that it does take time in some situations and to be willing to be patient with that. 

Yeah. And I think one of the things I would encourage parents in that space too is that a lot of times we move into what do I do? And that’s a really good question, but sometimes they are not real obvious answers to that. And so at the end of the day, when you’re not sure what to do, to just think about what does it look like to try to be faithful to the calling of your role as a parent, that may not give you specific direction on how to speak into this thing or what consequence you should put in place, or even if you should have a consequence, it may not answer some of those nitty gritty things, but I think hopefully at a high level, it gives you some degree of, okay, what does it look like? 

To walk faithfully as somebody who trusts the Lord through this, and we’ll see where to go from there. I love that, Brian. And here’s the challenge, and I’m really psychoanalyzing myself. In these high stakes moments with our kids, what makes what you just said difficult is because there’s sometimes an element of self-displeasure that I personally have as a parent. 

That while this is the decision that’s being made and then there’s a string of regret, right? Or maybe it was this, or maybe I didn’t do that right. And those types of things. And I think those also weave their tentacles into these high stakes moments with decisions. 

Does that make sense? So, what should we remember in light of that? You know what I mean? Proverbs 6 says, you know what? I’m trusting in the Lord in that. Parents, it’s whatever stage, if you’re praying for help to raise your children, then you’ll make decisions the best that you can at the moment that you can. 

We get older, you get some life down the road and we look back and we could definitely see things we could have done differently. But to be able just to rest and be in the moment to say, well, for whatever, this was the moment that we had. And we did the best that we could with what we knew in the moment. 

And to be okay to let God sort out some of that rest of the if and when pieces. So, Craig, this is what I was ministered to, don’t trust what I may or may not have done, but trust the prayer. And that is something I can do. Sometimes when our kids are on the backside of the moon or they’re struggling or they’re just making those continuous decisions over and over and over that are so frustrating to just remember there is such a power in prayer.  

I remember early on in my school work, realizing having a conversation with a kid and finding out a little bit of their history or where they went and who they live with and whether church or faith or God was a piece of any of their story. And sometimes going home, I remember the first time I went home, and I just thought, I don’t know if there’s anyone who is praying for this kid. 

And that was such a heavy on my heart to recognize that moment and to go the, the flip side of that is to be able to say, oh, what a privilege that we will always have to pray for our kids. And I think one of the things that makes me think of too, Craig, is when our kids do make these poor choices that we’re talking about sometimes it can lead into isolation for us as parents and we want in some ways, I think there’s good intention, to protect our kids and that makes sense. But also, without sharing any of it with anybody then it really limits the community that God’s put around us. And that they can pray for us and they can be supportive and they can minister into our child. 

Now, depending on where the child’s at, they may or may not be open to that. So, we might have to navigate that. But I think it’s so important that we don’t isolate ourselves, and we don’t let our own fears and regrets lead us into trying to walk this alone. I’ve been blessed to hear both of you address this topic, and I think a couple of points have come to the surface and I’ll say these things in closing. 

Number one, we’re not going to get out of this parenting thing without having our children make bad decisions and poor choices. But I think the hope here is a couple of things. One is you can trust in prayer, maybe above trusting in any sort of counsel that I can give, trust in prayer, trust in the believing community. 

I think it came out that we’re one voice of many that our children can engage in the believing community and then trust in this large gravitational hold that God has, that even as we go around the dark side of the moon, that he has us in that pull and how God weaves his redemption story in and among bad decisions. 

I think that’s exciting. Thanks, each one for listening and I hope this was a blessing to you.