Habit Formation Podcast Episode

It’s not just what we are doing. I think that’s what we tend to think about with habits. But the reality is what we’re doing is doing something to us. And I think that’s a really important key to the things that we’re thinking about. Sometimes we’re like, oh, it’s not that big a deal. This is just what I do. Which is true on the one hand, but the doing of whatever that is, is actually doing something to you that a lot of times we don’t account for.  

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Excellent as always, to have you along, Matt Kaufman is my name, Brian Sutter and Kathy Knochel are with me. 

Great to have you in the studio today. Hi, Matt. Yeah, glad to be with you. Today we’re going to talk about habits. Okay. I’m going to do a little exercise. Which of the following phrases rings truer to your ears? Bad habits or good habits? Which phrase rolls off the tongue easier?  

Boy, I don’t know. Seriously. I don’t know. Yeah. I don’t know. Yes. I thought this was an easy question. No, huh? What were you expecting? Bad habits. Okay, Shauna’s in the studio because she’s running our background. Shauna, what do you think? Bad habits. Bad habits, thank you. Everybody in the audience understands this. 

Okay. Bad habits we’re trying to break, good habits we’re trying to develop. Well, actually, that sets us up perfectly. So, good habits should roll off our tongues just as easy? Yeah, I think so. Yeah. So, our topic is habits today. We want to provide good education on habits. But I think habits start out of the gate behind the curve in terms of redeeming its value and worth. 

It seems like it’s easier for me to point to bad habits than good habits, or that’s become a part of my vocabulary more than good habits. Does that make sense? So anyway. Okay, so now we hashed that beginning. Sorry, we just totally dropped the ball there. Yeah, I wasn’t real sure. Yeah. Let’s start with a habit. 

What are we talking about with habits? And maybe the objective of this podcast is to understand better the place that habits serve in our lives. But also, maybe to redeem it. If there’s any in the audience like me that resonates more with bad habit than good habit. 

Sure. Well, I can take a stab at it. I mean, I think of habits in some way as just something that we’ve done so frequently, it just becomes natural and almost, in a sense, it’s just automatic. Another way to look at habits is that they are like a sign of something deeper. But we don’t always recognize the habits that we’re doing. So, then we miss them as signs and we miss what’s driving them, whether it’s a good thing or a maladaptive thing.  

In your line of work as clinicians, habits come up in the work that you do. How do they surface, and how do you wield them for good as well as protect them from being, what did you say, maladaptive? 

Maladaptive. Yeah. We’ll let Kathy define that. Go for it, Brian. Well, that one didn’t rule off the tongue at all for me, so I’m already there. So maladaptive in the sense, like, adaptive things tend to be helpful and are good, whereas maladaptive, they’ve been corrupted. And, you know, what drives you isn’t necessarily a good thing. 

Can I assume then that presupposes that habits adapt us? Absolutely. Right? Yeah, I mean, by saying it’s maladaptive, saying it’s not adapting well, I don’t know what the opposite of that would be, but you’re really saying something powerful about habits, which I think is now at the core of the matter, right? 

So, what are we saying about habits? How do they behave? What are they? And how can we wield them for good? Yeah. And I think in my mind, that’s one of the things about habits that’s so important to recognize. It’s not just what we are doing. I think that’s what we tend to think about with habits, but the reality is what we’re doing is doing something to us. 

And I think that’s a really important key and the things that we’re thinking about. Sometimes we’re like, oh, it’s not that big a deal. This is just what I do, which is true on the one hand, but the doing of whatever that is, is actually doing something to you that a lot of times we don’t account for. 

Well, so with that, and then the maladaptive piece of it doesn’t roll off my tongue either. What I am wondering about is, does something simple like we feel stress, so we engage with scrolling on our phone and that becomes a coping skill that has turned into a bad habit. And so, then what is this doing to us? 

We’re not managing our stress well, like a maladaptive habit that came into place there. Is that how you see that? Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And sometimes you can’t always trace it back unless you’re able to identify the habit. Well, I end up on my phone every night. Okay. So, what’s the why behind that? What’s the driver? And sometimes it’s like, boy, I just needed 10 minutes to check out. And sometimes it’s like, actually, I was pretty stressed. And, you know, that’s pretty effective in reducing your stress, but it may not be ideal or the only tool that you want to have.  

So, habits are pretty informative in helping us see underneath the hood of our own selves. Yeah, I think so. That’s quite a tool then. And that’s where a lot of times in counseling somebody might come in and be dealing with what we would consider a bad habit, let’s say. Well, a lot of times we don’t really focus on the bad habit. Our goal is to figure out, okay, where did that come into play? What’s driving that? And if we can work on that thing, then that’s going to put us in a much better position to move into stepping out of that habit, whatever it is. Because the habit then doesn’t have its purpose. It doesn’t have a home. 

Right. Exactly. Habits form us. What we do shapes us. I don’t think we intentionally pick up bad habits. So, they’re insidious in this way, right? That they grow on us. Speak a little bit to the development then of habits and how do we more wisely step into being a habitual creature? 

Well, I think the hard part with that is Matt, what you said is so true of we don’t choose these bad habits, they develop slowly over many days. But I think what I see a lot is we want good habits to start immediately. Good habits develop over a period of time too, but we have to have patience with ourselves and understand all these background things that we’ve talked about here in order to establish and be good at good habits. So, that would be a tactic then for human change to say we are habitual creatures and so to build in good habits is a great way to bring about health in a person’s life. Is that fair? Yes. And that’s something that you’re dealing with a lot. 

Yeah. And like we’re talking about, sometimes it’s just the habit of being thankful, like we would like that habit, but our tendency is to be critical. We don’t recognize it to be critical when we come home and you say, hey, how was the school day? And it starts off with all of the things that were wrong with it or, hey, tell me about how work went or any other thing. 

If the natural tendency is always to start off with the negative, you’re training your brain against thankfulness. Even though you might say that your goal would be to be thankful, you’re actually building the habit of starting in with all the things that didn’t go well that day. And that’s accidentally what happens. We actually train ourselves in really subtle ways that downstream show up in really powerful ways. And they’re like, wow, how did we get here? But like Kathy was saying earlier, it starts really small, subtle, and you don’t even realize it’s happening.  

So, another example, while you’re on the phone scrolling, you’re getting inundated with messages and the way to view yourself, the way to view others, the way to view the world around you. And you don’t even realize it in many ways because your brain’s turned off. But that can be the subtle seeds of these unhealthy habits. And then they show up in really big ways down the road. Yeah, here’s the uphill climb though. It would seem that habits, habitual behavior plays on reward systems, right? So, what is the immediate reward? Certainly, the more immediate the reward, the more powerful the habit producing behavior. So, if you get a hit, whether it’s dopamine or whether it’s relief or maybe it’s a habit of lashing out in anger with certain things because there’s an immediate release and something feels good about this. 

It’s like you’ve been high-fived so quickly that the habit seems to accelerate the reward of becoming a thankful person. Okay, and now I’m just going to spew my humanity and depravity. Seems like a reward that’s out there a ways. You know what I mean? Right. Like, I’m not sure I’m going to get the same endorphins, and I have no idea if that’s the right word, but I’ve just heard that word before. 

I think you’re in the right universe. It seems to be so out there that it’s just an uphill climb for a good habit to form out of intention. Am I right? Yes, and I think that the barrier there can be people waiting for the motivation to come to develop these habits, whatever it is, right? Whether it’s thankfulness or I don’t know, like going to the gym or doing a certain hobby, we can wait for the motivation to come for it. But the motivation comes from doing it. And so that uphill climb is just steep. I agree with that idea of before we feel like we have the rewards, we have to do it enough to get the reward and keep it going then, too. 

I’m still going to make a case that bad habits are easier than good habits. That’s why it’s in our book, yeah. And I was just thinking of that as we’re talking about this. I think bad habits are certainly much more natural. We slide into bad habits. You don’t slide into good habits. 

Like hitting snooze can be a bad habit. Do you do that, Matt? Yes, I do that. Unfortunately, yes. It is an immediate reward. And to build in a habit of not doing that, I don’t know. Yes. Well, so I think too, though, you have to ask yourself, why do you not want to hit snooze? 

So if it’s to become a morning person or to get things done in the morning there sometimes has to be, like, it doesn’t feel like an immediate reward when you get out of bed the first time early, but it’s like that person who you’re becoming, and then whatever things you do with your morning time becomes the reward. 

Snooze will always feel like a reward. That doesn’t necessarily go away. Is that right? Right. Yeah. I completely agree with you, Kathy. I think you’re absolutely right, but the immediacy of the feedback seems to be what habits play on. Right. And I think it speaks to the reality, like Kathy was saying, and I think you’re saying in a different sort of way, is that if we rely on motivation in and of ourselves or self-discipline might be a way to describe what you’re talking about, we will never make it, we’ll never become the kind of people we want to become, we’ll never create the sort of habits that form us in a way that we want to be formed. 

It has to be something different than motivation. So at least two different, two additional categories would be things like skills. What are the skills that I need that are maybe going to help me get to forming this? Now, that doesn’t apply with the snooze, but I think the thing that does would be structure. And adding a layer of structure might be helpful to make sure that I don’t hit snooze. Now, it’s not going to be a foolproof plan, but if I had the structure from bed to coffee. Yes, exactly. Exactly. Huh. Yes. I’m learning something. To speed up the immediacy of the positive feedback. Right. Yes. And you start to move into bringing your brain on board, which is just another really important point in all of this. 

We’d like to think that we’re just purely thinking creatures, we’re rational creatures. And the reality is, by God’s design, we are so much more than that. We are lovers or emotional creatures. We are spiritual creatures. We are relational creatures. So, we think that if we put our minds to something, it’s going to happen. And the reality is our minds aren’t very helpful a lot of times. They get outvoted. By emotions. Yes. Yeah. So then if you get yourself up and you’re moving, then your brain maybe catches up and then it can be helpful. But initially, not a chance.  

This conversation really, I think, brings together that complexity you said it here, Brian, about being a physical person, but emotional, spiritual, and okay, I’m chasing down my thoughts. If I learned how better to live in my body, because habits play to body, kind of. Oh, yeah. I mean, at some level, right? Sure. Very bodily. Yeah. Sure. If I learn to live in my body, it will be a boon to my brain, emotions, and relations as a whole person, which I think is kind of a fresh idea because often we think that our body is the caboose to our brain and emotions and relations, but your saying habits is one way to put the body in charge of it. 

Yeah, no, I think so, for sure. Like, so, a silly example of that would be if I’m trying to create the habit of viewing a sibling in a helpful way for my kids, and they’re in the midst of bickering, which is an easy habit to move into, and you ask them to hold each other’s hands, it may not go well, it depends on how intense the battle is, but there’s something about the body and doing something different with your hands that shifts the dynamics. 

Or, for example, if you’re trying to make a habit of exercising in the morning. You can’t think about how to get all the way to the basement where you’re going to do the exercise. It’s like, how do you get your body just to sit up in bed and put on shorts? But what I hear you’re saying, Brian, is do something different. 

Yes. And the body is a lot of times the gateway that you can use to help do something different. Because habits play to norms. And what you’re saying is juggle up the norm and you’ll be starting the battle of habit reformation. Yes, and I think to your point of just something small. The term out there is habit stacking or making it accessible would be another word I’m saying. 

So, your point of like the first time you decide to start working out in the morning you don’t have to make it all the way to the basement where you’re going to do the workout but what about just getting your gym clothes on or doing a quick stretch? All of those things have to be very close in the morning. If you make gym clothes or the keys to going to the gym or whatever accessible and part of your already morning routine, it makes it quicker that you’ll do that.  

You mentioned habit stacking. What is that? So, doing it. Is that what you explained? Well, no, that was more just making it accessible. Yes. I think the habit stacking is actually being able to do it as part of your morning routine. So, you brush your teeth every morning and there is a certain habit, like, if we’re going back to the thankfulness piece, have a note by your toothbrush, what are you thankful for today? Okay. You build in that routine, that habit into a routine that you’re already doing. Good. Yeah, I think it’s really important or else it goes back to what we’ve talked about. 

We rely on motivation to take in Scripture at an unknown part of the day where I will for sure at least get this and I’m stepping into that habit of taking in Scripture first thing in the morning. Well, I really sympathize with this idea that I know I need to be a certain type of person. And sometimes on a Sunday after church we walk out and say, I am going to be this type of person, right? Just like Paul told me I should be. And then norms take over, right? Right. And that’s where I think anybody that’s wanting to do this, where you can totally relate to what you’re talking about. 

And I think one of the important things there is just to start small and to see small things as a victory. I think many times this isn’t about getting to a certain destination. So, for example, on Saturday I was with a young man. And he ran 14 miles that morning. Fourteen miles. While Matt was lying in bed hitting his snooze. I know that’s what you were thinking. I know that’s what you were thinking, Brian. Exactly. I’ve never run anywhere close to that in my life. So, if I want to become a runner, we start to ask ourselves, what would a runner do? 

And you start to step into that even in really subtle ways. You know? I want to be somebody who memorizes Scripture. Oh, okay. What would somebody who memorizes Scripture do? So, you’re really putting your mindset into an identity set, like this is the type of person that I am and allow that to drive the behavior rather than just the actions reflecting on who you really are or something like that. 

Yeah, exactly. Okay. Because then you’ll start to make good decisions when you see yourself as a non-smoker. I’m not a smoker, right? And then all of a sudden, smoking seems out of character. Right. Because again, our tendency is to lean on motivation. So, in that heat of the moment when you’re under stress you’re going to get your typical fix, whether that’s a cigarette or, a piece of candy, or whatever it is, sit down with your phone. If you ask yourself, do I have the motivation not to do this? The answer is no, but if you’re asking yourself if this kind of person I want to be, would they do this? That at least frames it in a different way. Yeah, that’s good. That’s helpful. 

I would say the two biggest barriers I see is perfectionism or all or nothing thinking, right? So, if I want to develop the habit of all the examples we’ve used, like, working out three times a week and I’ve only done it once this week, oh, I’m going to scrap the habit because it’s not perfect or if I didn’t do it well enough, I just won’t do anything at all, which is to your point of like, we have to recognize small successes in it and really kick out the all or nothing or else good habits do not form.  

Right. Another thing, and kind of to your point, we often talk of two individuals who want to create the habit of reading their Bible consistently. But the challenge a lot of times is they try to read it, and they expect a certain outcome and a certain emotional outcome. And when that doesn’t come, then it’s like, well, the exercise was pointless, so why do it? 

Huh. All right. So that is the immediate feedback loop that you have to accompany a good habit with. It has to do with the identity piece because it’s going to die the death of negative immediate feedback and say, okay, that didn’t get me where I wanted to go. But rather when doing that thing to say, I am a thankful person. I just wrote down something I’m thankful for. Or I am a person who exercises because I put my tennis shoes on is part of the exercise of immediate positive feedback. Right. It’s not out there. I can’t run 14 miles, but I am that person. Yes. Does that get in the right direction? Yeah, because even, a common approach to Habit to Forget, where it comes from, is to try to make it appealing. And that’s exactly what you’re speaking to. Try to find something, even if it’s a really subtle thing, or something you’re just coaching yourself on that helps it be appealing, that’s really powerful, if we can find a way to do that. 

Well, and to your Bible reading example, and to use the coffee example, sometimes just pairing those. I get to enjoy my morning coffee as I’m taking in some Scripture. Even if it’s the same Scripture for several mornings in a row, you’re at least allowing yourself to be present with the Scripture while doing something enjoyable. And then, I think you can start to feel some of those rewards from that. It’s so fascinating, a lot of times, as humans, anything we do that is new, for most of us is uncomfortable. Now, there are some individuals who are just geared very much differently than that, but, if we’re doing something new, even if it’s a good thing, we should assume that that’s going to feel uncomfortable and unnatural. 

And that is not usually our assumption, but we keep doing it. And like Kathy mentioned earlier, as we do it, then the motivation comes because we settle into it and are like, oh, okay, now I know how this works, or now I have a deeper understanding or a deeper appreciation for this. I’m starting to grow an appetite for this thing and then it can continue to flourish from there. 

I think accountability is very important when we’re trying to develop good habits. If you ask someone to keep you accountable or just tell someone you’re trying to develop this habit, it really ups the stakes for sure. So, I perceive some people are wired with a preset disposition towards routine and structure and habit. They’re listening to this and they’re like, oh, preach it. Oh, man, I wish I was in the room. I’ve got a few things to share. And there are others who are listening and it’s like, I think one of my gifts is spontaneity. I think God has given me a gift that one day just doesn’t look like the other like those boring people out there that wants to get on this podcast. I wish I was in the room. I have a few things to say. Does that make sense? Yeah, totally. So, there is a personality temperament type of thing here. And so anyway, I’ll leave off and let you comment on that.  

One of the things that I think about with habits is they really are something once you develop one, your brain takes over and just does it automatically, right? 

Isn’t that how you would say that? So, when I think about the person who is spontaneous, I almost wonder how many habits they actually have that gives them room in their life to be able to be spontaneous. I feel like they go together. I feel like you can be very spontaneous but have good habits in place. 

I really think that’s very fresh. I like that, Kathy. And the way you explain that, really habit is anything that we learn. When hard things become easy, it’s probably an indicator of habits there. It could be your math skills, right? Like, hey, those hard problems are pretty easy. I don’t even have to think about them that much because I’ve got some habits built in. Or a piano piece. It seems to be difficult, but really easy. And that person who’s spontaneous is making hard things seem easy. And there are probably some habits beneath there. That’s interesting. Yeah, I would agree. 

And I think a lot of times in those situations, flexibility would be a huge habit that they’ve just matured over the years, which has become very useful. And I think it’s one of those things, too, that being carefree and spontaneous can either be very functional or not functional. And being very driven by habits and structure can either be very functional or not functional. I think both of those can be helpful and both of those can be a hindrance. Yeah, that makes sense. Victor Frankl was not a believer at all, but one of the things that he experienced when he was in the concentration camps as a Jew is that you could endure almost any what if you had a why. 

And I think as a believer, one of the things that’s so key and important with habits is that we have the ultimate why. Our why is that we want to become like Jesus. And the mechanism of how we get there, I think, is very clear in Scripture that we need the Spirit working in us to do that. And we are called to work very hard to bring those things about. 

And so, it’s how those mix together. I don’t know if that’s a mystery we will solve here today. But I do think if we can keep that in view, that as a follower of Jesus, I want to train my mind to look at fellow humans, whether it’s the person I pass in the grocery store or the person that I drive by, that I think of them in a certain way, that I start to train my mind that would be a habit. 

Or when I view my kids, whether it’s in their success or failure, that I start to train my mind what it would look like to be a follower of Christ in a faithful way? To train my mind how I think about things in my body and what it does in these certain situations, because I want to be formed into the image of Christ. That is really powerful and motivating to me. 

I love the optimism of that. I think that’s really encouraging. And maybe that will come back to where we began. I still think bad habits roll off the tongue a little bit easier than good habits, but both of you are in the profession of helping people with good habits. With an optimistic lens even a person like me could maybe even possibly get out of bed with just the alarm going off once. But I’m going to ask you not to follow up 

Thanks both of you for being on. Thanks everyone for listening, see you later.