Autism Spectrum in Marriage Podcast Episode

Oh, you see this differently, not just differently in the sense of different perception. We all have that. Yeah. But fundamentally, the way you process communication is different. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. My name is Matt Kaufman. 

Kaleb Beyer is with me today. Kaleb, good to have you here. It’s good to be here, Matt. As our pattern is we’re going to delve into relationships particularly the marriage relationship, Kaleb. But what I really appreciate about our conversations is you can take what you learn here in the marriage relationship and take it to the other relationships we have. Absolutely. Yeah. I fully agree with you there. We’re going to really zero in on what we talked about in neurodivergent marriages. And I’m going to want you to explain that a little bit. But we’re going to really speak to a subset of that and that is the presence of autism or autistic spectrum. Because I think it could probably be spoken more on a spectrum than that classic diagnosis, but it impacts marriage and so I really look forward to this conversation. I think it will provide a great deal of hope and bearing for relationships where this is a reality. 

Yep, I hope so. So, let’s start with that neurodiversity. Yeah. We’ve touched on it before but maybe let’s bring us into conversation with that terminology. So, we use these terms and maybe you’ve heard them before, neurotypical and neurodiverse. And so, someone who’s neurotypical is someone who processes both emotions, information, and their executive functioning is typical to the majority of the population. 

But then you have individuals who have fundamental differences in their neurology, which is not the same as the typical population. And so, we’ve talked or referenced on this podcast before. ADHD would be an example of someone who is neurodivergent. But under that neurodivergent category is a broad range of neurological differences within it. So, today the focus is on autism spectrum disorder, which is a subset underneath neurodivergent. Again, there are many, dyslexia is another one, but ADHD and autism spectrum disorder are two of the more common neurodivergent categories or ways they show up. So, then what happens? 

And I think particularly today we’re looking at when someone who is neurodivergent marries someone who’s neurotypical. Now that sets us up for a situation that can be challenging. Yeah. Two comments just as I reflect on what you’ve said, number one, is just the rise in the number of autism disorders in our population. Yeah, sure. I think that’s been borne out in research, right? Whether it’s a diagnosis or whether it’s just an awareness of what it is. But certainly, autism spectrum is a household term that probably wasn’t 30 years ago. 

Yeah. And so, we’re more aware of that. Yeah. We see its presence in our families. And so, for this now to be in the marriage makeup makes sense. Yeah. And I think meeting the time with the needs that we have is really excellent. So, comment number one is just the prevalence and comment number two is that relationships live and die on communication. Don’t they? We are communicating. Yes. And right now, we’re communicating via words. Yeah. But that’s only the tip of the iceberg. There’s communication underneath that. And with communication, there’s processing what’s being said and making meaning. 

Yes. All of that, right? Yes. It’s complex. It is very complex. And so, when we have this complex arrangement required for human relationships and then we have something neurodivergent, which is mixing messages. Okay. We have something to talk about. Yes. And so, we can see where we can really run into a jam in relationships where this is present. 

And where it’s present without proper awareness and without proper skillset. Yes. And is that what we’re trying to raise here? Yeah. Skillset and awareness. For sure. And I think your second comment, that piece you think about how much we depend on just the ability to be able to send a clear message and to receive a clear message in relationship and that sense of connection and intimacy is really built on that foundation of being able to have healthy communication. What do you do when you have two individuals with different brain structures? It isn’t about trying harder. It’s about this is fundamentally different in the way they’re processing it. Even when you say try harder it even runs on some of the economics of being human. And that is we like ease. I do. I would rather not use a hundred words if I could just say three. Yeah. And get it across, that’s right. Yeah. And so, it’s hard for us to really push and so we’re going to go the easy road and assume that I know what you mean. 

Yeah. Rather than really check. Yes. And that’s going to run its range of problems right now. And so, I think even with that you’re stepping into that sense that, par for couples that have this set up where there’s a neurotypical and a neurodiverse, in this case someone on the autism spectrum, is that they have intentionality at which they need to communicate. And how they communicate looks very different than a couple in which that dynamic does not show up. Okay. Then let’s go into that autistic space because you’re starting to fill out the uniqueness of the autistic spectrum. Yeah. So just broadly, maybe as we’re stepping in there, I think about my experience and again, I’m not an expert on this. It’s shown in couples that I work with and, as you said, we’re becoming more aware of it. There’s been research done and an understanding of it is that I would say there are three areas of fundamental differences in neurodiverse couples. One is the frequency of communication struggles. The amount and the frequency at which there are communication challenges is much higher. As we might imagine. 

Second is the idea that the emotional intensity and distress is much greater. And part of that is differences in emotional regulation and processing emotions. Which is different between someone who’s neurotypical and someone who is on the autism spectrum. 

And then finally the duration or the length of the reaction and the meltdown. And so going in and working with couples, those three areas are helpful buckets. As I think about that, there are differences between a couple that has similar neurology from a couple that has very different neurology. 

These might be signals that some neurological divergence might be present. Okay. I’m curious when these are present and you’re working with a couple I’m assuming sometimes a diagnosis is present. Sometimes it’s not present. Do you encourage a diagnosis? Is that something that you want or do you work with the premise that it might be there? I’m curious. It’s a really good question. Yeah, so actually interesting in the couples that I’ve worked with, it’s actually more common that the diagnosis isn’t there. 

That is something that maybe a couple has struggled with for years, and in the process of beginning to unpack the communication struggles, we’re like, oh, you see this differently? Not just differently in the sense of different perception. We all have that. Yeah. But fundamentally, the way you process communication is different. 

I think that’s an important distinction. Yeah. Not just a different perspective. Yeah. We’re here, but we’re talking about processing. Yes. So, then we would say, yes, certainly we would highly encourage a diagnosis which requires additional testing with individuals who specialize in autism spectrum disorder. 

We would say this is something that would’ve been there in childhood. So, it’s maybe themes you’ve seen over a lifetime. But again, as we’re talking about a spectrum here, there are individuals on this one end who require a high level of support and then those on the other end are highly functioning and it’s really difficult to pick up or perceive that there actually are neurological differences there. 

So, it makes sense that they could have lived most of their life in this undiagnosed space. Yeah. And I think there’s probably room for differences of opinion on whether diagnoses should be done or not. But yeah, I want you to get to the bottom of why it would be your suggestion, your counsel to do it. Yeah. So, what is it that we’re after? Because I think there are different ways to think of labels and I think we resist that. Yeah. At some level too. Yeah. But I think there’s something more stout, sturdy that you’re after that the diagnosis supplies and what is it?  

Yes. So, if we know that this individual does have the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder, then it is a fundamental neurological difference in their brain, right? The brain is different, and that means the way they process emotions, the way they make decisions, the way they communicate is different. And so, to try to approach that individual in the same way that I would approach someone who we call neurotypical and expect the same thing is absurd. And actually, it is frustrating for both individuals. So, once we have clarity that this is a fundamental kind of difference in neurology, it now shifts what we expect from them and the way that we would approach them and the skills that we would use with them. 

So, with a couple that’s neurodiverse, we don’t use necessarily the same communication skills. Or when it comes to sensory differences. Oh, that is, different. Yeah. So, I think with it, Matt, there is really a shift in the way that we would treat the couple and the individual, which is why we oftentimes highly recommend a diagnosis. 

Yeah. And so, it sounds to me like the very core of it is truth. What is true? And if a diagnosis can help us know what it is that’s going on, yeah. Give us that awareness and that truth then that’s going to be helpful. Why not know what’s true? So that we can wisely step into it. Really, a person has got to have a desire to know themself. That’s really the calling of knowing the truth about myself, which I think sounds like it goes a long way in marriage. If we know ourselves, is that the pursuit that we’re on? Yeah. Know ourselves and our spouse. 

Yeah. Not only that but know how to know our spouse because in a neurodiverse relationship it’s a different way of processing than neurotypical. If you are typical, you already know, but if it’s divergent, you don’t. Yeah. And this gets into the theory of mind, but before we switch to that, I do think I want to mention that the process of getting a diagnosis sometimes can be expensive and it takes time. And so, for some couples I’ve worked with we just go on the path of, let’s go through a resource. Maybe they don’t go down that path. That would be the path we’d recommend. But you know what? Let’s go through a resource and say, let’s just be curious as we walk through this, do you have these experiences? Is this what you know what I’m saying? Again, that’s not ideal, but at least there’s some help for couples or those that you know going down this expensive path of finding out the truth isn’t an option for them. 

There are some good resources to support. Okay. Yeah. I really like that. And so, I think what we’re learning here is to find out what’s true about yourself and your spouse. Yeah. And that can happen in a number of ways from hard science to soft science. Yeah. What does that hard science look like though? What would a person do if they wanted to get a diagnosis. Yep. What’s the first step there? So, there are individuals who specialize in testing and diagnostic interviewing and with individuals who are on the spectrum. So, if I was working with a couple, we would give them a referral to a number of Christian counselors who specialize in this area. 

Or we would find one and then they would go, probably take a number of different tests as well as having a diagnostic interview with this psychologist. And generally, when we’re thinking about an autism spectrum disorder, they pull in family members, whether this is a spouse, a parent, that sort of a thing. 

And so, it’s fairly extensive in what they do. Because we don’t want to just slap a label on something. That’s not helpful because that’s not really the purpose of it. It’s about truth. That gives us a path of treatment that’s effective rather than trying to treat something we think is there, but we’re not sure, that sort of a thing. It gives us a pathway to understanding reality. And not only that, but perhaps potential moving forward. And what that could look like. Okay. That’s helpful, Kaleb. I really appreciate the encouragement, the diagnosis. I think you’ve made a really strong case for it, and it makes sense in some cases. 

Maybe this is a very tender topic, right? And one spouse is thinking, do I make the suggestion of the other? And then there’s trepidation, there’s fear about even that conversation. So, for sure. Speak to that a little bit. Yeah. What does that look like? Yeah. Yeah. It is Matt. Especially when there has been ongoing conflict and misunderstandings in the relationship. 

So, I think some of the important communication skills that we would say in other situations also are true here. This conversation is one that’s helpful when we approach it from a level of care and curiosity and wanting to understand. And also, I would see this as not just a one-time conversation, but an ongoing conversation and being able to choose our initial conversation on this at a time where there’s not additional stress or feeling overwhelmed or those sorts of things. And then being able to make it about us as much as possible.  

So rather than, I think you need or you are really coming from an angle of tentative language and openness of. You know what I’ve been learning a little bit about the way different people see the world or process and really using the language of different mindsets versus disorders or deficiencies or things like that. 

So, I’ve been learning a little bit about the way different people process or view the world, and it reminded me of some of the things that have come up in our relationship. Should we investigate that? And because I want us to be able to learn to manage stress better and to learn to be able to understand each other better. So now it’s about us and the relationship versus you and what needs to happen to you. I think it also means at times grieving for the neurotypical spouse. Because the spouse that I thought I expected to have is the spouse that is going to be different than I expected. And so, there’s grieving. And I think in this interaction there are ranges of emotions. And there’s grieving on both sides. There is a loss of desired reality also.  

Yes. If you think about it, Matt, one of the reasons for resisting it can play into the narrative. I’m the reason for the struggles in this relationship. How do you accept you? You know what I’m saying? So, of course there’s resistance to that because we would say that’s not true. But it feels very true, right? And so that’s a hard, like you said earlier, tender spot to navigate through. 

But I think the more that we can make it about how we understand each other better, reduce our conflict, and be able to manage stress better we’re on a good path at least. And then walk through the grief together if grief is there. Yes, or fear. What does this mean for us and our relationship? Yeah, that’s good. All right, so let’s move along from that whole diagnosis piece or knowing ourselves. What can you tell us then about what you’re learning about helping and aiding couples in this?  

Yeah, so a couple of terms and things that might be helpful. One is just the whole concept of what’s called theory of mind. So, when it comes to interpersonal relationships, one of the things we find is important is what’s called theory of mind, and it’s a cognitive construct that basically is to be able to read what you might be thinking. 

Not really reading what you’re thinking, but reading what you might be thinking, feeling, experiencing. I’m able to have a theory or interpret what your intentions are. So, a theory of another person’s mind. Yes. Is that what we’re after? Yes. Which includes not only the verbal but probably even more so the non-verbal. 

Yes. Yeah. So, if you see someone in certain behaviors, you’ll be able to relate to what they might be thinking or what their intention would be. Individuals on the autism spectrum disorder have what’s called a weak theory of mind. So, the ability to read those intentions isn’t there, or is not there to the degree of someone neurotypical. And this isn’t a weakness per se, this is just a difference. And the ability to be able to cognitively know what the other’s intent is. Okay. And the other area is what we call emotional intelligence, which we’ve talked a lot about. 

Emotional intelligence is the ability to be able to recognize, to know what I’m feeling, to be able to regulate that, but not just me. Know what I’m feeling, but to know what you’re feeling. And to be able to empathize and to be able to feel with you. Does that make sense? Yeah. So, when it comes to emotional intelligence, again, we would say, this is a overgeneralization, but in general, those with autism spectrum disorder often are high in intellectual intelligence, highly intelligent. When it comes to emotional intelligence, generally that’s lower. Okay? But one of the things that I think is important here is challenges doesn’t mean that individuals with autism spectrum disorder are not able to empathize or don’t care. In fact, they care a great deal. But they care differently and so one of the things in couples where this shows up is what’s called the double empathy problem.  

This came out of research, I think back in 2012 maybe, where we’ve often used this term that individuals with autism can’t empathize. But we’ve neglected to realize that actually the ability of those in the neurotypical category to empathize with someone who has autism is actually very low. And so, where there’s a couple where one is neurotypical and the other is on the autism spectrum there’s a double empathy problem, meaning the need goes both ways. 

Part of the goal is for the one who is neurotypical to learn what it is like for someone who has autism spectrum disorder. How they think, how they organize, how they make decisions. You with me? As well as the other way. And that’s the problem. It’s not just one way, it’s actually two way. 

And that is really helpful to think about as a couple in this place needs to get to know each other and the way that they process differently in order to make changes in the way that they communicate. I really like that. It sounds to me by that description; the goal is not to make them typical.  

Yeah. Is that even possible? If so, how does that happen? Yeah. So, I think a couple things that might be helpful, and Matt, I’m not sure this is where you are going, but I do think it helps the neurotypical realize that the seemingly harsh or blunt comments are not intentional. So, in that way, the neurotypical learns how to hear the neurodivergent. Yes. So, that’s one of the learning areas of growth. Yes. What a neurotypical spouse may internalize as well. That was a mean comment. 

Their ability to perceive it is not that. And it’s not because they’re trying to be mean or a jerk, it’s just they are more direct, logical, to the point. And when it comes to the whole theory of mind and what specifically is this understanding of the connection between the stimuli. Oh, I said something hurtful and now you’re hurt. That can be difficult for someone who is on the autism spectrum.  

So that’s really helpful and that theory of mind goes both ways. Yes. As you’ve already said. Yes. I’m just picking up on it now, and I think that’s a great explanation of how it goes in the direction towards the neurodivergent. So, the neurotypical says, ah, this is what he or she said, but this is actually what they meant. Yes. What would it look like in the other direction? Is there a lift there as well for the neurodivergent? One of the things is recognizing that the neurotypical spouse can get hurt, and it doesn’t mean they’re overly sensitive. 

Okay. Things can be factually, logically true and still come across as harsh and mean and feel mean, even when that isn’t the intent. And I think some awareness to those pieces that what I said is actually factually true and it can be that someone on the autism spectrum feels like they’re just overly sensitive. 

That’s not what I intended. Actually, it may not be that they’re overly sensitive. It may just be that, neurologically, they’re different. And so, the way they interpreted that actually hurts. Yeah. Okay. I love that word sensitivity. Because I think that’s something we can handle and take away. 

Would you say that’s very common? Yeah. As you talk about couples, that the one on the autistic spectrum has a diverse sense of sensitivity. And they need to understand that about the other when it comes to emotions. Yes. And when you say different sense of sensitivity, my mind then goes to sensory. 

Okay. Because we would say another neurological difference, Matt, is that someone who is on the autism spectrum disorder, again, this can go two different ways, is they can get too many stimuli. So, think of your senses. Whether it’s sight, sound, or touch. Exactly. Someone who’s hypersensitive when it comes to sensory input gets overwhelmed really quickly. Okay. On the other end, individuals can be hypo, meaning they just don’t pick up on it, and in some cases, more extreme cases they may seek, behaviors that they get sensation. Okay. But one of the things that’s helpful when it comes to sensitivity in the area of our senses is that someone who’s on the autism spectrum disorder, oftentimes by the end of the day, the sensory overload is they are spent. 

And it’s not because of inability to manage stress. Yes, they need to work on that, of course. But there’s a neurological difference from the individual that’s neurotypical. And that’s going to impact marriages, right? Yes. Because when are you with your spouse? Very often in the evenings, right after the day. Yeah. And if you think about what that neurodivergent individual going to work all day encounters out in the public. It’s like he or she is in a different language. Yeah. Very exhausting to process and to run all these skills with their boss and with their coworker and with their students and all of these things. 

And for that to atrophy. And having less than ideal for our spouse is probably normal. Yes. And there the key is for the neurotypical to recognize. Oh, there is something more going on that they don’t choose to be overly sensitive to stimuli. It’s not oh, I’m going to go to work today and be overwhelmed by the sounds or the lighting, or sometimes it’s food, and it’s not like they’re choosing this. It’s just the way that their brain functions. And so, for the neurotypical spouse to realize, okay, this is a real fundamental difference that I need to learn about, be curious about how it impacts my spouse.  

And then for the one who’s on the autism spectrum, that they may need to learn how to budget their energy, right? And to be able to manage and schedule time during the day so that they have some energy for their spouse or time when they get home so that they will have space and that sense of energy for their spouse. I like that. And I’m going to make a prediction here. I want you to comment on it. 

Is part of the lift being able to talk about it? Yes. In a way that we challenge negative intention? Yes. Wait, say that again. Help me understand what you said. That we talk about it in a way that we challenge negative intentions. What I mean by that is that things that come across, either as my spouse doesn’t care, or my spouse is overly sensitive and they need to get over it, is we need to challenge those things and wonder, oh, maybe there’s something else at play here. 

And so, having the conversation with curiosity and openness to maybe they’re not really intending to hurt me. Yeah. And I think when we start having conversations, one of the resources that sometimes they use with couples is an exercise that’s called walking a day in your spouse’s shoes. And so, the idea is you sit down and write out what your spouse’s day is like, what they go through, what they experience, how they process differently. Does that make sense? We just write out a day in your spouse’s shoes and then you share it together. 

Is this what it’s like for you? Or is it different? And the idea is for me to learn about what it’s like for you and your world, rather than me trying to convey to you what it’s like. Yeah. Both are needed. Yeah. But I think it sends us on a pursuit of really wanting to understand. You’re making comments that sound really hurtful, but yet you don’t get it. 

And it’s really hard for us to sit with what feels hurt and to challenge stories in that. Yeah, Matt, that’s really tough. Another piece in the area of communication is the whole idea of language. And, we would say language involves somatics, which is the meaning of the words. 

And someone who we would say is neurotypical. Sometimes we use implied meaning. So, if I say to you, it’s freezing in here, Matt, perhaps I may want you to shut the door or shut the window. Maybe I’m not saying go shut the window. Yes. But I’m making a comment that’s implied. Yeah. But is not literal. And we would say that’s the somatics of communication. That’s different for someone on the autism spectrum. Yeah, for sure. Because I keep asking and there’s been no response. Yes, exactly. Aren’t you listening to me? Yes. And they are listening. They’re just interpreting it very differently. 

And I think that difference then is a couple on a journey to learn both the neurotypical, how to be more literal, how to be more direct, how to challenge metaphors. Does that make sense? Yeah. And to really speak in a language that they can hear I think is a really important aspect for neurodiverse couples, or skills, I should say, to learn how to talk to one another. 

Yes, for sure. And then I think we’ve somewhat referenced this, the whole idea of the pragmatics of communication or language is you and I can see each other. So, body language, tone of voice, eye contact, all of those things that we would say for a neurotypical, are really important for communication. 

Someone who is on the autism spectrum disorder wouldn’t be out of the question. If I was talking to you and I’m on the spectrum that you asked me a question and I’m looking at my phone, not making eye contact, and I give you a one sentence response back. That sound sounds disinterested to me. 

It sounds like they are disinterested and distracted to you, but to the one who’s on the autism spectrum disorder, that could again seem like I’m responding to you, I am communicating to you. Does that make sense? And I’m with you. And I’m with you. Absolutely. And so, I think some of those nuances and differences show up in very different ways. 

Back to where you started with communication and how important that is to our connection. It begins to affect feeling connected and that sense of also feeling cared for, responded to, and loved and that runs really deep. Fast. So, have you seen a lot of steps forward, couples learning to live well together? 

Yes, absolutely. I think I have Matt, and I think it’s been an incredible privilege to see the neurotypical spouse recognize the care that their, husband or wife on the autism spectrum has for them, and how hard sometimes it is for them to feel like every time an issue in marriage comes up, it’s me. If I was only different.  

And how that goes to the sense of identity and when that light bulb comes on. Oh, this isn’t what I thought it was. In the sense of you don’t care and you keep saying things that are hurtful and yet you don’t stop. You know what I’m saying? Yeah. 

Like when that light bulb comes on oh, wait a second, there’s more going on here. And I have. I have been loved all this time and haven’t known it, haven’t felt it. Yeah. I think it shifts the paradigm of their marriage, and it shifts the skills that we develop and the path that we walk together. 

Kaleb, this has been really helpful, and I think it is inspiring whether we have neurodivergent relationships or not. Again, everything that’s been spoken here in terms of knowing myself and knowing others and then living into that knowledge so that we communicate well and relate provides a great deal of hope for relationships of every shade and stripe. So, thank you for that. And I hope to our listeners this provides some definition and some clarity like, oh yeah, I can see this. And I think that’s exciting to see that and that there is a path moving forward with a great deal of hope. Yeah. For sure. Thanks. Each one.