Marriage Podcast Episodes

The topic for conversation for this podcast series in Breaking Bread is marriage. And with me is Kaleb Beyer. He’s a clinician here at ACCFS. Thanks for being here. It’s good to be here, Matt. Thanks for having me. Kaleb, I’m anxious to have you be a part of this conversation. In fact, you approached me with this topic. 

And this comes a lot out of your counseling room. You see a lot of situations and you work with a lot of couples. Yeah. I’m looking forward to the opportunity to have this conversation about marriage about the purposes of marriage and begin to roll back some of these things that I think are good for us just to reflect on and to think about. I know this from interacting with you, and I imagine our listeners would presume it, but this is a very passionate topic of yours. You have dedicated your life to working with marriages. Which means you see a great deal of benefit in some of these points that we want to raise. 

Yes, I am passionate about it. And I think the more and the more I learn and experience marriage, the more passionate I become, because I think ultimately it points to our personal relationship to Jesus in so many ways. And as we think about the Bible, you go from Genesis 1 with marriage being shared up to Revelation, the end of the Bible. So, you have the first and the last chapter where we have the marriage of the lamb. Yes. And so, we see here that this is no accident, that God is weaving this story of marriage in the longer narrative of the Bible. Yeah. And so, I think my passion for marriage comes out of not just an earthly relationship that’s beautiful in itself, but what is behind that relationship, what it’s designed for, what God intended it to be. 

Right. Our listeners know from previous podcasts that I’ve engaged in beekeeping. You know what, Kaleb, when I opened that box for the first time, I was a bit spell bound. Like all of this has been going on without my notice. Oh yeah. God has been so intentional in this somewhat insignificant thing here, for his glory. And there’s so much organization and so much purpose and so much intention. Okay, now let’s set that aside. Marriage is that and more when we pull back the box lid, right, and look into it. There’s a great deal of value and understanding in it and looking at what God’s intending here. 

Yeah. I love that analogy, Matt, because the awe and the worship that come out of that experience, right, ultimately leads back to the giver of all good gifts and who we are called to worship him. And I think it’s so appropriate to have this conversation about marriage in particular. Some months ago, we had Amber on, and we talked about singleness. Okay. But I’d like to bring up a point that we made there is that singleness and marriage are both visible testimonies of God. They’re both wonderfully visible testimony. So, we’re not elevating marriage, are we? Above a single status? No. We’re saying it is important and let’s understand it’s wonderful visible testimony of God. If we leave some of this biblical education about marriage aside, the world has plenty of its own lessons, don’t they? Yeah. For sure. What are those myths? What are those beliefs that I have about marriage that are unrealistic, that is not really what marriage is about? 

And so, even beginning to pull those and expose those beliefs and put your finger on some of those teachings that the world or culture or just natural man is surmising about marriage that are clearly false. I think maybe to put that out there for our listeners, have your antenna up for some of those myths because I imagine through the conversation, we will bring some of those out. Yeah, I’d like to, I think it’d be helpful.  

Well, as we talk about this concept of marriage and concept of relationship, first we start with God, don’t we? God is the originator of relationship, and so as we have three episodes for this podcast series, walk us through just really quick what the three levels of relationship are that we are going to peer into as we look at God as our model for this. Sure. So, the first relationship we’re going to look at is just God in the world. Really as we think about the gospel message aspect. So, we have God reaching into this broken world. And out of that love falls wonderful lessons of marriage.  

What’s the second one then? The second one is God in the church. And we can think of Ephesians 5, certainly as a one example of Paul walking through both Christ being the groom and then the church being the bride. And so, there are pieces in that relationship that we want to glean from. And then the final one is God in himself three in one. What are pieces and aspects in that relationship that then we can begin to learn about this marriage union.  

Let’s jump right in then talking about this relationship of God with the world. And I think a classic verse would be John 3:16, right? Yeah. For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son. And so, we see God extending love towards this world in the midst of brokenness, right? So that in a nutshell, is the gospel. And what you’re suggesting is there is a principle here for marriage. What is the principle then?  

Yeah, the extension of that love, the extension of that grace was not based on us being lovable. That God so loved the world and as we think through Romans 5:8, God commended this love while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. And so, I think one of the aspects of the extension here or the correlation that we can bring back to marriage is that marriage is a context by which we can live out loving someone when they’re not so lovable. Or receiving love when we’re not. This sets up, I think, a very important concept. I can see a departure already from this sentiment and then what is probably natural, right? Because typically, when we go into marriage, we think this will fix everything. 

Right? Yeah. There shouldn’t be problems. Sure. And maybe right at the outset, this should be perhaps a comfort to our listeners who think we’re going to paint an airbrushed picture of marriage that is unattainable. That’s not what we’re talking about here, are we? No, it’s not. In fact, I would say what we’re talking about is this whole idea of bringing hope and power through what God’s original design and intent for marriage was. 

This is bigger than just liking each other and agreeing with one another and making each other both perfect and whatnot. Yes, and I think the whole aspect that you hit on is one of the myths is that marriage is going to fix everything. I’ve had to challenge myself. There’s this author, Gary Thomas, who wrote the book, “What if God Designed Marriage to Make us Holy more than Happy.” 

And I think when I’m faced with the realities of living in a broken world, in this relationship that sometimes I just want my marriage to make me happy. Yeah. And what we’re saying is this is bigger than making us happy. I think we cast the vision of a very sacred purpose of marriage in the sense that in marriage, we embody the elements of the gospel so that the marriage would be a visible testimony of the gospel and make the gospel make sense in a way. Oh, now I understand the gospel because look at that marriage. Right. Yeah. I look at the world and I see brokenness, and I see a God extend through that brokenness in love, and I look at that marriage and I see brokenness, and I see love being extended through it. 

Yeah. Is that the right model there? Yes. That is a connection. And a prerequisite, Kaleb, for that is to have brokenness. You know, when Jesus talked to the Pharisee, Mary came in and washed his feet with her tears and hair. To him that is forgiven much, loveth much. And I think one of the aspects of looking at marriage in this context is that when we see that brokenness and the reality of it, then we also see and witness the unbelievable healing of this love, this grace. Kaleb, the challenging point to boil all of that down is, is my spouse drawn to me by my continual forgiveness?  

Yeah. Okay. I’ll have to think about that some more. I think sometimes we view marriage as an end in itself. Okay. I can remember growing up and that’s what I looked for. I mean, yeah, one of my hopes was eventually getting married, having kids, you know, having a family. 

But for me, that’s where it ended. Okay. But I think this purpose moves it outside of marriage being in and of itself, but marriage also being part of the gospel message and part of the purposes of God in proclaiming that message. Kaleb, give us a specific example to bring some of the abstractness of what we’ve been talking about and put in an example that we can all kind of nod our head and say, boy, that sounds familiar, and then let’s pull out some of the gospel components there.  

Yep, sure. If we think about a transition from work to home that’s kind of a hard transition. And let’s say for example, a husband gets off of work. He had a hard day at work, he’s stressed, he comes home, and he walks through the door and he has a number of young kids that meet him at the door. First thing. Okay. And he has a wife who also has had a hard day. But the husband, because of his stress from the day, is unable to see the need and the opportunity to speak the gospel, to share love. 

So, let’s say he walks through the door and responds in anger or in a critical way, or in a perhaps demeaning way. Not intending to, but it happens. It takes place. Yeah. And so, the wife then experiences that and the coming home as very hurtful. And that’s the brokenness. Okay. So, from there then certainly there are opportunities in a couple aspects to bring the gospel forth. One is for the husband later on that evening to reflect in the gospel message. One of the aspects we understand, recognize, and appreciate is that of confession. So, one aspect can come through the husband recognizing, you know what, honey? I responded in a way that was inappropriate. Yeah. And at that point he asked for forgiveness. Right. 

He recognizes what he did wrong, not making excuses. But acknowledging, okay, this is something that perhaps is a pattern. Perhaps it came up, but now that’s the confession part where he brings it to his wife. The other aspect certainly of that is for the wife, not in the moment, to bring that piece up, but perhaps later that evening or at a time that maybe they sit down and talk together to say, you know what, I notice there’s been a pattern and just bringing up. I think one of the gospel messages is being able to speak the truth in love. Not in a critical way but being able to approach each other and share it.  

You know what I’ve noticed, this kind of transition from work to home has been hard. And it’s really hooked the two of us. The reality is that the truth of the behavior is addressed specifically in a loving manner, which provides opportunity for grace to be extended, and I would say the wife in that manner would extend grace because in that interaction, it’s easy for our buttons to get pushed to completely shut down, right? Not saying anything or spitting out something that we regret saying. So, by not spitting out in the moment when the husband responds in that way, could be argued as an extension of grace, and so we’ve seen three aspects of the gospel. One we have the brokenness. Two, the extension of grace by the wife. Three, the confession and repentance of the husband, which is the reception of grace. So, in that episode, and if you have kids in line who are watching this, think of what they’ve seen of the gospel. Yeah. 

Beautiful. Yeah. And then perhaps number four being reconciliation in the sense that embrace then happens. And then we move forward, putting that behind. Right. And that forgiveness. Yeah. You know, I think Kaleb, we can explain what grace is, right? At a theological level. And we can write the definition on the board, we can write it in multiple choice questions, you know? And quiz people. You know, be very academic. And then we can example grace much more powerfully, right? And that’s what the wife did, in the example, extend grace. There’s a huge lesson to be caught in that, but I would almost contend that the greatest lesson of them all is showing the reception of grace and what happens afterwards to complete that lesson to all who are looking on. 

Does that make sense? Yeah. What a powerful sermon for the gospel. That it’s not just that interaction, but if I understand you correctly, Matt, it’s the transformation or the power that comes out of that interaction that leads to part of the sanctification in the marriage relationship. 

As we open the box of this marriage thing, we’re like, whoa, there is way more here than meets the eye of what God has intended this marriage to do. Yeah. Yes. Designed by God, created by God for a purpose. And in that intimate relationship, we are completely vulnerable. Our masks are completely taken off. And we are seen as we are in the gospel light. Yeah. And then as we see ourselves as we are, we have opportunity from that to begin to respond out and live out the gospel message within the marriage context, and God very likely will use that marriage both to sanctify us and also to proclaim himself.  

Yeah, it’s masterful. Absolutely. And I think as we look back to one of the myths that we talked about, marriage will solve all my problems, in many aspects we are faced with our problems in a very new way, right? Yes. What will carry us through our problems? Yes. Not necessarily airbrush them out. Yes. Right. And doesn’t that speak a little bit about the divorce problem that we have? 

Our culture is a divorce problem, right? Yeah. Because we haven’t been able to navigate brokenness, right? It’s not a part of the marriage ideal, something must be wrong. There’s brokenness here. I’m out. Yeah. And we can see the heart of God for marriage and why he would detest divorce in that way for those reasons. It’s through better or worse, it’s the agape love that we see, for God so loved the world, it’s that committed love that then brings healing, the committed grace that brings healing in our personal lives, but also in our relationship. Kaleb, as we draw this episode to a close, I want to give you an opportunity to speak from experience where brokenness creeps into marriages. 

I think you’ve provided a wonderful example and we’ve seen that gospel play out in there, but I wanted to give you another opportunity to share another area that our antenna should be up? For sure. Well, if we even think about that last example that we talked through, the husband coming home from work and the, and the wife. 

Another aspect of brokenness can creep in just at our individual level. So, whether it’s the husband or the wife, but let’s, for example, take the wife. It comes in in the stories that we begin to tell ourselves about the situation or assumptions that we begin to make about our spouse. So, you’re suggesting that perhaps what’s going on in her mind in this case. She might be telling herself a story about why he is like this, why he had that interaction when he came in the door. And those stories are impactful in guiding her thinking and her response. And they may be inaccurate. Yes. For example, let’s say as he walked through the door, he approached in a critical manner and one story may be he just doesn’t care about me. 

Yeah, right. An absolute statement. He does not care about me. Which then leads her to experiencing anger, frustration, pain of feeling alone, which then as experiencing that emotion, she responds in a way that can perpetuate the negative interaction that occurred. He doesn’t want to be here. In fact, he probably wants to be somewhere else. 

Yeah. In fact, he probably wants to be with someone else. All of a sudden, we find ourselves in treacherous places with consequences of those thoughts that absolutely lead down a negative spiral because then what happens is in our brokenness, we begin to believe those stories. 

Right. Which aspects of those stories may be true. But what happens is our tendency just to believe and assume they’re fully a hundred percent true, run with them. And then we react to each other’s stories that then lead to escalation, lead to things being said that we don’t desire or intend to say. 

Right. And so, there’s a story tape playing in the husband’s mind as well. Sure. Why is she responding to me that way? For sure. She doesn’t respect me. She doesn’t think that what I contribute here is whatever. Yeah. And off we go on our own train and pretty soon we’re miles apart with a lot of falsehood in between. 

And so, the remedy then is to recognize that I’m telling a story to myself, that story needs to be brought clear, and truth needs to be shared. So, let’s talk. Yeah. At the end of the day, let’s communicate here. Yeah. And understand one another. 

Absolutely. Yeah. It’s not that we don’t bring those stories forth, it’s that we recognize that we begin to add to the experience that we just had. And some of those things that we add to aren’t necessarily the truth. It’s probably hard not to tell stories. So, it’s not about telling stories, it’s about recognizing that I am telling stories. 

It’s amazing how persuasive our stories are in the moment. Oh yeah. And then after the air is cleared and everything is settled, how did I even come up with that story? Yeah. Research even shows that as we increase in intensity and level of emotion, our judgment is narrowed. So, our ability to see other perspectives and other people’s stories and understand them when we’re high in emotion, it just isn’t there, which then makes sense why when we’re in the red zone, it’s not a good idea to have a conversation together as a couple. 

Yeah, it’s stepping back, taking a breath, calming our own hearts, praying and coming back together at a point that we’re not a red zone. Well, Kaleb, I think we have clearly not articulated that the purpose of marriage is perfection. And I hope that’s been somewhat of help and casting some hope for our listeners to be realistic about marriage. 

But to baptize marriage in the beautiful creation of God and that his gospel is so beautiful that he plants it in so many places. Right? Yes. For the salvation of our soul, but ah, don’t miss it in the marriage also. And what we’ve talked about here is the marriage is a beautiful seed bed for the gospel. 

You can pretty well expect if you are married, that you are going to have opportunity to walk the gospel through the extension of grace and love. To the reception of grace and love, to the reconciliation of the two for the visual testimony of everybody who’s watching. Right. And when we do that, we agree so much with God’s love for the world. And his prescription for reconciliation. Right. Which I think just makes marriage all that more special.  

I mean, I would rather take that marriage than the marriage that the world is punting for. Right. Absolutely. That those moments are turned into ministry rather than a place that leads to further decay, destruction, or unhealthy places as individuals. And you know what, Kaleb? I, I think the world is asking two questions when it comes to recognizing the brokenness and the gospel. Two questions are, is it real? Is the gospel real? And does it work, follows quickly after the first and what an opportunity we have in marriage to show that to our children. 

It’s real. Yeah. And it works. Show that to our neighbors. It’s real and it works to the world. And marriage has a wonderful platform to do that. Absolutely. A testimony like we talked about earlier, that they can experience in very concrete ways that seems perhaps pie in the sky to some. Yeah.  

Thanks so much. We’re looking forward to furthering this conversation about the relationships of God and what we can learn from those relationships and apply them and see them personified in our marriages. 

Kaleb Beyer is with me again on Breaking Bread. Welcome back, Kaleb. Thanks Matt. It’s good to be here. Today we’re going to talk about the relationship God has with the church. Yeah. And this is very closely tied with marriage, isn’t it? Yeah, absolutely. And we’re reminded of Ephesians 5, which is a common Scripture used when we think about the marriage covenant, but the analogy Paul uses certainly is husbands being like Christ and wives being as the church. He spells it out pretty clearly, doesn’t he? He does. As we look and begin to understand Christ’s relationship to the church aspects and how he engaged the church in his walk here below, those are all pieces that I think we can pull into our relationship and I think one obvious one is covenant, right? 

The covenant is a huge word in the Bible, the Old Testament and the New Testament. Jeremiah prophesies of this new coming covenant. Jesus is the New Testament covenant. It’s Christ and the church. And we stand up there in front of church with our spouse and we make a covenant, right? Yeah. 

This does not all just happen by chance. This is all pretty calculated, isn’t it? Absolutely. What do we get out of that covenant piece? The promise that we make on the wedding day is to enter into something that then allows this love, this unity, some of these principles that we talk about to flourish and to bring forth fruit because it’s not a contract, but it’s a covenant, meaning that my love for you is not based on how I feel, right? It’s not based on how you are, whether you are sick or healthy. I’m with you. A contract basically says, alright, these things are in place, and we are going to maintain that they stay in place. And this is the deal. And if they don’t remain in place, then everything is loosed and it all falls apart.  

And you said a covenant allows us to love. Am I right? Yeah. It sends us, so what it does, it says, now we have an age whereby these things are allowed to flourish under this agreement of relationship. Is that true? Yes. Am I seeing that right? Absolutely. I see that very differently than a contract like I’ve never before. Yeah. I think in a contract piece, it’s all about how far I go or how far my spouse goes. So, it’s kind of the 50/50 rule, if you will. Sure. Which is pretty pervasive. I think that’s pretty common in the way the world would view marriage. 

Certainly. I think it’s part of the reason youth look at our society and compatibility has been a really big thing. Because that means if I’m compatible with someone, theoretically that means minimal sacrifice. We have swallowed compatibility in the culture. That has been supreme in relationships. 

And I think what I’m hearing is you’re suggesting that it’s not. Yes. Okay. Alright. Go on. Tell me more. I mean, there are aspects of compatibility that are beautiful and that are part of a relationship, certainly that glorifies God. So, it’s not about throwing this all out from a compatibility standpoint. 

It’s either I sacrifice, or I’m fulfilled. And compatibility algorithms help us so that we don’t have to sacrifice a great deal. Yes, it minimizes the sacrifice. Yes. Maximizes fulfillment. Yes. Is that right? Yes. I’ve never thought of it like this before. Christ didn’t say, I’m going to minimize my sacrifice to maximize my fulfillment. No, not at all. Flip it on its head. He maximized his sacrifice. Yes. Right? Yeah. To maximize our fulfillment. Yes. Okay. Yes. That’s incredibly challenging. And that goes right into this relationship he has with the church in Ephesians 5. And about how husbands should be, and wives should be. 

Yes. Let’s go into some of those finer points then. Yep. What is Ephesians 5 saying? Yep. I think what we’re seeing in Ephesians 5 is mutual sacrifice. Okay. So, he talks of husbands loving their wives as Christ loved the church, which is an incredibly high calling. Right. If we’re not catching that as a husband, we’re sleeping. 

Yeah. Something’s not connecting here, for sure. If we read that without a pause. Yeah. It’s beyond us to be able to do. Let’s maybe tease that out a little bit. In what ways did he love, or how should we think about that? Husbands as we think about our wives. Yeah. He led with love and sacrifice, so, you know, in the upper room, the last supper. 

And he comes and he serves, and he washes the feet of disciples and thereby proves his servitude. And his love. And so, what an imagery, right? For husbands to be washing the feet of our wives. And to place ourselves like that. Yep. To serve them in that way means that we know them intimately and very deeply. 

So, in order to serve, I think even the disciples, Christ knew each one of them, knew what they struggled with. We can think of his interaction with Peter and with John. He washed even Judas feet, presuming Judas was there, right? And so not having a rubric, Jesus didn’t really have a rubric on what the case needs to be in order for me to wash this person’s feet. 

Sure. Yeah, in sickness or health, Matt, I think then this leads to the opportunity to lead in self-sacrificial love. Then the other aspect of this is the wife, right? Submitting themselves to the husband as the church submits herself. 

Submits herself to Christ. Now, and we have to pause here with the word submit. Yeah. I mean this word has been eroded in our culture. It’s not held and respected for the virtue that it possesses. And certainly, what we see in Scripture. 

So, we have to somewhat recalibrate what we mean by this word, biblically. Absolutely. Culture, I think, has sent each of us messages about submission and what that means, you know, giving up. Completely giving up my rights. Seems like there’s a worth piece too. That our culture has a value. So, it is like if person B submits to person A, that must mean that they are of less value than person A. It is the whole headship piece that has been taken by culture and distorted into whoever is higher up on the ladder is more valuable. And that just is not what Scripture says. 

Equality runs pretty deep in our American culture. Yeah. Doesn’t it? Yes. Anything that bucks equality is going to get a stern look and a swift reprimand. Yes, and I think that’s a little bit of what’s at play here, but we see Christ submitting to the Father in the garden like no other story. 

Yeah, no other account of deeper submission and we would not say that Christ was less than. Sometimes submission is distorted as I just lay down and I don’t do anything kind of the rug just to be walked on. Yeah. To be used and abused. Yes. And that’s not what submission is at all. 

Alright, so we’ve broached this very tenuous tension here in between what submission is and what it’s not, and how the husbands in the Scriptures are supposed to be the head of the wife and the wife submit, and yet I think there are probably some areas where Satan runs amuck with this. 

Yeah. Am I right with that? Yes, absolutely. We get a little off kilter with it and we get a little sideways with some of these concepts thinking that we’re walking in step with Ephesians 5. And yet we are not. Yeah. And so that’s where I want to ask you where do we get off kilter with some of these concepts? 

Yeah. Christ died for us. Right. So that we could be his, which is our fulfillment. Yeah. Now we die to ourselves, which is our sacrifice. Yes. So that we could be his, which is his fulfillment. Wonderful. Which moves into mutual sacrifice that leads to mutual fulfillment, which is the picture of the husband and the wife in union. In the covenant relationship that is modeled after the visible testimony of Christ in the church. Yes. Okay. Yes. Perfect. So. Where do we go wrong here? I mean, because it’s not that easy or sometimes we get off kilter and we see things incorrectly.  

Yeah. So, for husbands, I think we can move into one of two extremes. On one end, we can move into more of an authoritative leadership, which is kind of the master of the castle. What would be some indicators? If you could think of some characteristics and some consequences of that to help us taste it a little bit.  

Sure. Whatever he says goes. Okay. And so, I think the characteristics of this then are that the husband becomes more demanding. The rules within the home become very rigid. In an aspect, it is truth-based without grace. Yeah. The sense of control for how the family functions or even my role. You know, as I hear you talk about that explanation, Kaleb, I even see as we talked about covenant. I see the difference between the Old Testament covenant and the New Testament covenant. The Old Testament covenant was rigid. I mean, it was carved in stone. Yeah. Right. You clunk your head against it. Right. And then the New Testament covenant is the covenant in the law of love, Galatians makes that clear. Romans 13 makes that clear. Jesus makes that clear with the greatest commandment is love, which is different, isn’t it? Yeah.  

And so, I think the challenge that we have as husbands is we can go to that authoritative place where we really, really like the law. On one hand, it’s a shortcut for us that can fulfill our longing and desire for control. Yeah. Right. And respect. But pursuing that in a wrong way. Now, I imagine there’s another flip side of the coin to this. Perhaps the word would be, maybe complacent. Yeah. The other side of this might be a husband who comes home from work and again, viewing from the contract, I’ve put in my time, I’ve done my responsibility so I can hence forth check out. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I’m entitled to things that then lead to disengagement from the family, from my wife, and become complacent in my leadership role within the family. And I think it’s a testimony that Satan is really attacking families and marriages. 

Because you can take a husband who is just Johnny on the spot at work. And then at home, just not be able to navigate it. Yeah. Right. Yeah. I mean, this is hitting right near home, Matt. Oh, I know. Me too. Why is it so hard to do it at home? Yeah. When we’re kind of in stride at work. 

Yeah. I think Matt, this is both the beauty and the painful reality of what marriage and family life and the opportunity that God uses to continue to transform us into his image is that we can’t go into marriage or go into family life and keep our masks on for very long. Yeah. We can’t do it. Whereas you think about putting in my time at work. Yeah. Right. I can pretty easily begin to put on a mask. But when I’m living with someone day in and day out who sees me through sickness and health, right. They see every part of me, both the not so good parts and the good parts. And we come face to face with who we are. Don’t we? We have to deal with that.  

You know what, I’m over authoritarian. I am still living the old law. Or I have laid down my responsibilities and I’m just complacent. Each of us struggle with one of those two continuums and sometimes both depending on where we’re at depending on the issue. Yeah, absolutely. But it is about a process of transformation that’s present in the marriage relationship and that provides a great deal of hope. Right? Yeah. God is wanting to grow us through this.  

Let’s now look at the wife’s situation. Okay. She is, as you’ve talked about in Ephesians 5, to submit, right? And we talked about that cultural word, and we’ve hopefully redeemed it in a biblical sense. But I would imagine Satan wants to take this sideways as well. In what ways does he do it? Yeah. On one end it’s maybe being too assertive or just the lack of fully submitting. Okay. So, what this would look like is there would be a tendency towards being resistant to submission. And that many times is because I can do it better and she can’t. Don’t you think that is it sometimes? It is. Yeah. You know, that’s a bad decision. My husband just made a bad decision. 

Right. Absolutely. Or he’s not making a decision, so I’m going to make it. Right. Yeah. And so, it’s not necessarily a power grab. No. I think many times it’s out of fear. Right. We have individuals, probably both the husband and the wife, who have real fears that are motivating this type of behavior. 

We’re going to pick back up with this continuum with the wife, but I want to key in on that word fear, Kaleb. Okay. I get a sense, even from being in this environment here at ACCFS, that fear is a big thing that you counselors counsel to. You have an ear to what are you afraid of? So, I’d like to probe that a little bit deeper. I think that’s very insightful. How do we come face to face with our fears? How is it helpful if I put my finger on what I’m afraid of? Absolutely. Okay. I think it is. Is there an exercise on how I think through that? How do you help a person? Let’s say I’m a father and I’m on the complacent end. What are some of the fears that I might have? Well, I think one of the fears may be fear of failure. So, it could be if I begin to step into and engage in this leadership that I might not do it right. Okay. I may fail. It may be fear of approval, right?  

And here’s why I think this is helpful. As you talk about that, hopefully our wives are listening to what you’re saying and are saying, hmm, my husband might be afraid of those things. How can I help dispel that fear? Okay. Keep going. Yeah. You mentioned fear of approval. And so, do I have what it takes to be the spiritual leader of my home? Because just as we talked about thinking about Christ and how he engaged the disciples. I can’t do that. I try but I can’t do that. That’s too big. Talk about the authoritarianism continuum. What might the husband be afraid of? Afraid of losing control. Okay. So, I think there’s just a fear if I lose control, something bad is going to happen. 

Right. If I don’t have control of something, then my kids may turn out this way. Yeah. And what’s the remedy to fear? What do you say to a person who’s afraid? Speak hope and love into that fear, which ultimately heals. It’s much easier for a wife or a husband to speak into the reality of those fears than it is to speak into the behaviors of the authoritative husband. 

Okay, so you’re saying instead of a wife saying, honey, you need to do this. You need to lead like this, it might be more effective rather than telling him how to behave, would be to speak to that fear that he has and encourage him at that point of fear and likely gain more ground. Yes, absolutely. Okay. If we can speak into that fear that is motivating the behavior that then leads to a different behavior.  

Let’s now go back to the wife. Sure. Because we were talking about the wives and this continuum the wife would have with this concept of submission. We talked about one being assertive. Why might she be assertive? What’s the other side of that continuum then? 

So, the other side of that continuum is a wife who is overly compliant. And so, what this looks like is perhaps a wife who has difficulty saying no, or a wife who doesn’t feel like it’s her right to share her needs or her perspectives. And so, she becomes the doormat that gets walked on. And so, that can lead to internal resentment, bitterness, and in some cases not standing up against destructive behavior that could become part of the relationship or part of the family. You see a lot of marriages. You see young, and I’m assuming you see the gamut of ages in situations.  

You know, for a marriage to hear this and say, well, all right, so you pegged it. That’s it. That’s me. Is there hope? Do you see marriages move forward and become healthier in these areas? Yes. And I think that’s the encouragement and the hope. It absolutely is, and I think it’s beautiful and it’s a testimony of God’s transformation and healing power that can come through each of us. 

The only individual that we can change is ourselves. Yeah. And I think that’s a very hard reality when we’re in this dance or cycle of, well, if only my husband or if only my wife. Which is true. Yeah. There are aspects of that that are true, but the more we seek to change the other, the more it perpetuates negative emotions and just difficult reality in ourselves. 

Yes. And so, I think one of the aspects of moving towards hope is realizing that the only person I can change is myself and how I interact with my spouse. Right? Yes. My spouse doesn’t need to be every need of mine. Yes. Because Jesus does. Yeah, it releases that load or that responsibility or expectation. I don’t need to be everything to my spouse because Jesus is. Yeah. Kaleb, I would like to conclude by looking at Ephesians 5:26. It talks about Christ sanctifying and cleansing the church with the washing of the water by the Word. The imagery in this passage is so incredibly beautiful. 

Even to the example that you gave of Jesus washing the feet of the disciples. So here we have the washing of our spouses with the Word. Yeah. Can you help bring this alive to us? Because I think this is something that we could do today. Yeah. Right. We’re going to work on the fears, and we’re going to think about that and consider how our marriage relationships are, and that’s a work in progress, right? But washing one another with the Word just seems like low-hanging fruit to me. Can you help?  

Sure. Yeah. When we are communicating with one another through promises from Scripture, truths from Scripture point them back to the power, the cleansing power. It’s not just my words, but I’m speaking promises. Yes. In Christ’s words. Yes. And I think that presses us actually on two different levels, Kaleb. So, for example, let’s take a verse like Colossians 1;22. You are holy and unblameable before God. A believer is holy and unblameable before God. 

Right. Well try this on for size. Tell your spouse sometime, honey, you are unblameable. Right. Okay. There we’re going to have two different things happen. Number one, you’re going to have to think long and hard about whether that’s true or not. Because we know our spouses so intimately and it requires me to view my spouse as God views them. 

Yeah. And now my spouse hears that and they’re going to say, how can you possibly say that when you know me? And now it elevates God’s view of them. Does that make sense? Yeah. It’s an incredibly challenging thing to do but I think there’s so much power in doing exactly what you say, taking the promises, the Word and now speaking them right into your spouse. Yeah. It both challenges and encourages us individually, but also our spouse. Yeah. And I think this aspect of doing this on a regular basis then also leads us to believing and beginning to see our spouse as God sees her as a daughter or a son of the living God. Yes, and did we minister that greater covenant with Christ in our own marital covenant. Right. Yeah. We’re using Christ’s promises and sharing that with our spouse and the Scriptures are totally filled with them. 

Right. Yes. I think Colossians 1 is a great place to go, obviously. Ephesians 2 has the gospel. Titus 3 has the gospel. There are so many nuggets. And Romans chapter 8, right? Yes, for sure. You know what I mean? Yeah, there’s a lot of low hanging fruit here and I think it would be helpful as you look into the Word, as you read the Word; to be thinking, how can I minister to my spouse with these words? Yes. To know those fears. Right. And then to move into a place to be able to speak truth and grace and love into those fears. Yeah. Which then leads to hope and transformation that is possible through Christ and through his power. 

We need Jesus. You know what I’m saying? And this works because of faith. Yeah. Right. And there’s no better place to land. If this all came down to smarts, if this all came down to brawn, you know what I mean? But it doesn’t, yeah. It comes down to giving the brunt of life to Christ Jesus and allowing him to minister to our marriages, whatever it is we’re talking about. 

And that’s what we heard today. Yeah. Thanks for sharing. It’s been good to be here. To our listeners, we do have a lot of resources for marriages on our website, accounseling.org. You’ll find a marriage button with more resources provided there with descriptions for your perusal and for your use. 

We hope that that can be helpful to you as well. Till next time, have a great day. 

Kaleb, welcome into the studio today. Thanks. Today’s our last episode in the marriage series. We’ve been talking about how marriage is a visible testimony of God and his relationships, and I think today might be the quintessential visible testimony aspect of marriage, and that would be oneness. 

Would you agree with that statement? Is that an overstatement? No, I don’t think it is. And I think this aspect of oneness is the ceiling. The saying that this is kind of the living out of what we verbalized. Where do we get in Scripture that marriage at all points to oneness. Yeah. We read of the husband leaving father and mother and cleaving unto his wife and they become one flesh, and he talks of it being a great mystery. 

Right. There are aspects of this oneness that clearly are impossible for us to fully grasp or understand to plumb the entire depths of it. And that would have to be because of where it comes out of. It comes out of a Being that you can’t plumb the depths of and that is God. So, make some connections there as well. 

Sure. So, this aspect of oneness, I think God paints a beautiful picture just as we look at himself within himself. As we think of him as a triune God, one being with three distinct parts of himself that function on their own, right? We think of God the Father, God the Son, Jesus Christ. We think of him coming to the earth, his flesh and his Holy Spirit, the Trinity. 

And complete unity. For all eternity, right? Yes. It paints us a picture of openness, vulnerability, communion, back and forth, and we can see that throughout as we look at Jesus’ life here on earth. The oneness he had with God the Father, the back and forth I find to be incredibly exciting, and I think we see it in some of the clearest text in John 15, 16, 17. It talks about going away so the comforter can come, talks about the father and the oneness. And inviting even us, the church into his oneness. I don’t think we can mistake that oneness is a large theme of the Scriptures. And of the intent of the gospel. 

The fellowship he has that is made possible through the relationship of oneness and being united by just casting this vision here to say, alright, notice that marriage comes out of the DNA of God. All of a sudden, raises the sanctity of it. Right? That might make me think a little bit differently about oneness. 

Yeah. And that’s part of our intent here today. Yeah, absolutely. I think what messages, what beliefs we have over time started to accumulate that is not the sacred oneness that God speaks of in Scripture. This is so far removed from our cultural concept of physical oneness. And before I let you respond to that, I would also assert that the culture is not silent on their thoughts about sexual acts, about sexuality, about its purposes. They’re not silent. If we are not on guard, we can swallow those concepts, can’t we? Absolutely. So, I’d like you to take a moment to redeem this concept of sexual intimacy. Yeah, sure. I think we see, if we’re not careful, a far too low view of it. Sex in itself is filled with meaning. The culture has hijacked this term of sex and what it means, hijacked it in a way that it is purely physical. It’s become only a physical act and bypassed the way to true intimacy, whereas I think from Scripture, we are taught that this is not just a physical act, but there’s an emotional aspect to it, there’s a spiritual component to it, there’s a relational component to it, and I think within this, we have a much more complex aspect of oneness than the culture would like to tell us. 

I think immediately of the great law of love where Christ said the greatest commandment is this, to love the Lord your God with all of our what? Heart, soul, mind and strength. Sure. It seems to be there’s a lot more to love than just strength. Yeah. And I think in order to engage in oneness in that way, it moves away from what we talked about last time, which is this aspect of going into this for my own needs. Okay. That this oneness aspect is about giving. Right. It’s about a gift that we’re giving each other. And so, culture would say physical intimacy is the end in itself. Yes. Versus God. And you’re saying it is a means to an end. It is a means to taking us, ultimately, to our purpose which is to glorify God. 

And I believe that this oneness in marriage is one aspect, one way we can glorify God, that ultimately, it’s not about engaging in this act per se it is about moving us to him and saying, yes, this is good, this oneness is good. Do I view that act as worship? Are you suggesting it should be? Yes. Okay. So, it’s going to meet two ends. It should be worshipful in the sense of creating and establishing and maintaining oneness with my spouse and at the same time, celebrating the oneness that God has with himself and the oneness that he invites us into. Yes. Is that right? 

Absolutely. We miss the beauty, the sanctity, the completeness of this oneness, and I think it’s easy in my flesh to forget the great meaning and purpose it has in marriage. Yeah. And so, I think we can just kind of fly right over. Yeah. My views and my thoughts and my opinions are always in flux, and they are being persuaded one way or the other. It’s not stationary and fixed. And so, the amount of time and effort that our culture is pouring into sexual education subtly, overtly. I probably am affected. I know I’m affected. Yeah. More than I would care to admit. 

Yeah. I think we are Matt, whether we realize it or not. How then do we maintain this appropriate good view of oneness in marriage and in particular, the sexual act. Read through the Song of Solomon which I think is a wonderful book that speaks to this idea of physical intimacy. 

Someone who wants to recognize counterfeit money doesn’t go about searching for what various types of counterfeits there would be out there. Right. Rather, they spend hours and days looking at the real thing, knowing it so well that when any slight change or any slight difference comes their way, something’s different. So, when you are looking at and encouraging couples to read through the Song of Solomon, they are intaking, a wonderful, pure dose of love, unity, and this physical act of sexuality. Yeah.  

Yes, absolutely. And I think from that, we begin to put up our radar and even notice, hey, when I listened to that commercial, what did you hear? What sort of message does that send to you about a man, a woman, or this physical intimacy within the relationship? How am I viewing my spouse? Do I see my view towards them as an object coming into my thinking as opposed to an eternal being with a soul? Yes. Because, right now, even when you talk about gender, man and woman, our culture is confused on many levels. Yeah. And how we view the opposite gender is being corroded in many ways. 

Absolutely. It makes me think, Matt, of just the example of beauty. So how do we think of beauty itself? Beauty is something that our culture has taken and, in many ways, made it a socialized term, which means how we view beauty today is different than how beauty in itself was viewed 100 years ago, 200 years ago, 2000 years ago. When you think of a woman, that’s beautiful. Okay. But Scripture would say in 1 Peter 3:3-4 whose adorning, let it not be on the outward adorning, but let it be the hidden man of the heart in that which is not corruptible. Even the adornment of a meek and a quiet spirit. 

Yeah. And so, a message that we’re sent by society is that beautiful women lead to this wonderful experience of physical intimacy. Yeah, that’s not true. You know what, Kaleb, actually, as you give that example, okay, in the Song of Solomon, the first chapter, the woman kind of bemoans her appearance? 

Yes. Do you remember that? Yes. Do not look upon me. Yeah, because I am basically too tan, because I have had to work. Right. And yet there is this love that he has that is such an expression of grace. That we are loved in spite of ourselves. Absolutely. It points us back to Christ in experiencing our own salvation. 

So, I think this is the redemption for us, is that we experience Christ’s love for us through our spouse in that very act and that we begin to view each other, not based on external appearances, but I see the heart. Yeah. I begin to see the heart of my wife and the meek and the quiet spirit that moves me in a way that I want to be one with her. 

What other components of oneness should we be thinking about in marriage? Not necessarily tied to the physical sexual act. Sure. So, I think another aspect though of this oneness is companionship. It is this idea that I am married to someone I love, and I want to pursue, and someone who’s my best friend who I can commune with. 

Right. Fellowship with that unity aspect of the Trinity that we talked about. I love that. And you think about the completeness that the Trinity has. Okay. Kaleb, when you read in the paper and you see an 85-year anniversary of marriage. Right? I mean, it lands in the newspaper. Yeah, just for longevity, devotion, and contentment, right? And you know that oneness wasn’t necessarily in the bedroom. Yeah. Right, I mean, that didn’t maintain 85 years, but there was complete contentment with each other that has remodeled this oneness. 

And then as you think about the Trinity for eternity, 85 years is not even a drop in the bucket. So, Christ is inviting us into something so stout, secure, and fulfilling that we can be content in it. Does that make sense? Absolutely. And that, to me, empowers the oneness of my marriage, knowing that it comes out of the oneness of God. 

Yeah. That this source of power comes through him. So, it isn’t disconnected as culture would say, we are not taking this act and disconnecting from the other parts of this oneness, companionship, fellowship, and unity that is also very integral. It’s a celebration perhaps of consummation of the covenant that defines this deep relationship of soul devotion. Yeah, and I think we see this in Scripture as well, Matt, as we go back to even Genesis. When he’s creating the world, he goes through, and God says it is good right after he completes the first day and second day and so on. But when he gets to the creation of Adam and Eve, he said it is very good. He moves beyond and what can be better than the beauty that he has already created.  

And to know that he said this, Matt, when Adam himself had a pure relationship with God. Yeah, right. It was perfect. And yet he said that it is not good for man to live alone. Yeah. And he’s in complete union with God. And so, I wonder, maybe I’m extrapolating this too far. Yeah. But it speaks to the value of companionship to me, of best friend and an integral part of that in our marriage relationship. 

And so, what God was saying in a sense was, now look what we’ve created. We’ve created ourselves back into both of these. Yeah. Right. Yes. Now they can be a visible testimony of us. And when I say us, I mean the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Right. They must have looked upon that creation and said, now that’s very good. Yeah. Adam alone was not going to do that, but the relationship with another was going to further that visible testimony and for that purpose, it was very good. Yes, Kaleb. The exercise of looking at the Trinity and then looking at my marriage is very invigorating.  

Okay. So, I’m going to do another one, and it’s actually a word that you dropped at the beginning when you talked about the Trinity. You mentioned their distinctions, that they were distinct beings that are one. Alright. So, now I look at my marriage and there’s a distinction there as well.  

Yeah. Okay. Is there something below the surface here? Yeah. I think one of the myths is this idea that my spouse makes me whole, Scripture would tell us. As we look at the Trinity, in order for oneness to take place, there have to be individuals of distinct being. That oneness doesn’t happen unless there are two individuals, and that distinction is necessary.  

One of the things that I like to walk through with premarital couples is just different concepts of different frames and relationships. So let me explain. These frames are about relationships to one another within marriage. The first frame would be an A-frame. So, if you think of an A-frame, the letter A is kind of two lines leaning on each other. Okay. Yeah, so that would be a dependent relationship, which means if I pull out one line, I pull out one spouse, the other will fall over.  

The next is what’s called an H frame, which is two parallel lines, barely touching each other by one line. Okay. Which represents complete distinction. Yeah, but not really that oneness component. So, they’re living individual lives and there’s not a lot of oneness or togetherness within the relationship. Not the oneness. Okay. So, we’re not to be an A, we’re not to be an H, going through my letters here. 

So, now we look at M. And if you look at M, the outside of the lines of the M stand independent on their own. So, they’re not being held up by each other, but they’re being held up by a different source and a different power. And the center of the M is Christ. And so, this oneness aspect speaks to the need for us individually to be connected and to have our source of life and power through Christ himself. That then flows out of us into our spouse. And so here we have come again. We pretty much find once we get to the bottom of things, that faith is required. Yeah. Okay. And that’s a joyful moment when we get to that point where we see that this is not simply self-help we’re talking about here. 

But this is something that requires Christ in order for it to be lived out. Yes. Right. So, he is going to be the center of our oneness here on this earth with our spouse. And then he also is the center of our oneness. Right. In all eternity. So, he is the source and the supply and the solution all the way through with hope that there is power beyond us. Yes. Kaleb, you’ve provided a great deal of explanation as well as I think some practical application to these concepts, but I want to speak now and allow you to address the couple who might be listening and struggling with oneness. 

Maybe they have struggled for years. What hope can you cast for that situation? Matt, I think there’s a great deal of hope when we think of redeeming or restoring this aspect within couple relationships. I think the first aspect for us is to be realistic, and that this part of our marriages is complex by nature so a lot of influences. And it brings in the fact that there is a great deal of gender differences as we talk about oneness and what it means within the relationship. There are great gender differences that can create tension. There are aspects of our individual lives, whether it be trauma from the past, one’s history, deep beliefs absolutely that affect this. 

And so, sex itself is laden with meaning for all of us, which is vital for us as couples to communicate openly about. That’s one thing. If there’s just one step today that we can begin to do together, it’s to begin to communicate openly. This is the part of a couple’s relationship that oftentimes couples tiptoe around. 

Yeah, and so there are assumptions made by that nature, or there are beliefs that we begin to have that aren’t necessarily true. But all this to say that one, it’s complex, but also to say that there is hope that a process of open communication, a process of searching through the Scriptures, a process of beginning to challenge my own beliefs when I hear this word. 

Again, what comes to mind? What sorts of thoughts do I have? Do they align with Scripture? You have worked with couples that have had all these complexities and more bringing them to a spot of troubled unity in their marriage. And you have found this area of unity to be healed in their life based on these principles? 

Yes. Okay. Another question for you, Kaleb. Yeah. Is a couple’s fulfillment in this area of their life better or worse by a spiritual biblical concept of it. Yeah. 100%. See now the world would buck that, wouldn’t they? Yeah. They would say the Bible is one great way to dampen this completely. Yeah. Here’s the thing, as we think back again of our distinct purposes on earth, and we are here to glorify God, and so I think the hope and the power that we’ve been talking about, which is again, going back to the Creator of the marriage union, is like the wind in the sail. 

It is and it does all the work. It does. And so, I think that’s also true as we think about our marriage relationship when we begin to align ourselves with Scripture and the truth of Scripture with the purposes of marriage. That is the power source that moves us forward, not only in oneness and closeness with one another, but in our own individual relationship to Christ. 

And I love that metaphor and that imagery, Kaleb, and I think we’ll close with that. Even as we look at this whole podcast series of marriage that hopefully has allowed us to adjust our sails a bit to catch the wind. Right. The Holy Spirit and God and his Word, his purposes, noting and observing his relationships so that our marriages are the maximal visible testimony of him. 

Yeah. Thank you, Kaleb for sharing your expertise, sharing your heart, sharing your passion on this topic. One that is very pertinent and one I think that will be very helpful to our listeners as we recalibrate in our own heads what God has intended by marriage and that we might have a lofty view of marriage. 

In this time and day and age we live in, I think this is extremely welcome to our listeners. Thanks for being with us. Again, there are a lot of resources on our website, accounseling.org regarding marriage. We trust that they can be helpful for you. Goodbye.