Having the Difficult Conversation

Proverbs says a word spoken in due season, right? It’s like apples of gold in pictures of silver. The power that the conversation can have to minister grace. Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. Wonderful to have you along. 

Arlan Miller’s with me. Arlan, we’re going to have a hard conversation today. Oh, that sounds delightful. Called you into my office. I shut the door. Have something to tell you. Actually, that’s kind of a funny story. At one of the jobs that I had, my boss would come in to my room and he would always shut the door behind himself and sit down. 

I can’t tell you how many times I thought I was being fired. The stories he started to say. And then, all of a sudden, it was about something not even remotely serious. It was something light, lighthearted or whatnot, but anyway, it’s probably a good practice not to do that type of thing, but that is kind of a segue into our conversation. 

Sometimes hard conversations need to be had, and that’s what I would like to talk to you about. I want to set this up a little bit, Arlan, to say you have done training in this area, and you might be able to say a little bit about that, but I am aware of some of that training, and I think it is excellent conversation to have. 

Because whether we like it or not, throughout life, we do have these moments where we have to broach topics. We have to have what we’re going to call, I guess, a hard conversation, whether it be with a spouse, a coworker, a boss, an employee, a child, and so anyway, we’d like a little bit of mindset and skill set. 

Sure. As it regards the hard conversation as an audience, probably listening and  I mean, are there conversations that you wish you would have had or that you know you need to have, or perhaps even like relationships where they’re just not where they need to be. And you just got that kind of ache in the back saying, I need to talk about something, but it seems really hard. 

It seems intimidating. It seems difficult. I mean Scripture says as much as lieth within you live peaceably with all men. So, there’s going to be times when we’re trying to engage and live at peace with all men, but it’s going to be hard. It’s going to be difficult. It’s going to take work. And you alluded that there are training programs, there are different books. 

You can read the Scriptures that are filled with principles that speak into this. Crucial Conversations is maybe a common book that’s been out there. There’s some training that some of us have done here at the agency in that area. I mean, there’s others out there, but they speak really into this idea, Matt. 

How do you have those difficult conversations? I think we can somewhat get a sense of what we mean by those difficult conversations or hard conversations, but I want to further define that space. We have conflict and we’ve talked a lot about conflict in this podcast, right? And those types of things. 

When we talk about a hard conversation, what is it that we’re talking about? I get a sense that we’re talking about something that perhaps has a little bit more on the line or is bubbling up to a point of no return. Something to that effect rather than the day in the day out of interactions positive negative that we have. 

Yeah. This is, you know, a higher stakes type scenario, a weightier type scenario where you’re going to have opposing points of view and you’re going through a level of stuckness. There’s something that we need to push through. There’s a breakthrough that needs to happen. 

If nothing changes. And that’s not a good thing because there’s a trajectory going on. So, I usually ask myself a couple of questions. Am I stuck somewhere? Is there something we need to push through or someplace where the relationship is not like I would like it to be? 

And maybe you got a sense of a misunderstanding or you know take a boss employee scenario. You know, you have this employee that’s just not where they need to be and it’s not working out in the right direction. You’re going to need to engage that somehow or have some type of conversation. 

Or a spouse type situation. Are there unspeakables or untouchable areas of conversation that you can continue on in that space, but it leads towards isolation. Pockets of places we just don’t go. You’re moving in trajectory towards disconnect versus a trajectory towards connection. Is there a temperamental thing here? I mean, are there people that love the hard conversations like, oh, this is what I’m all about. 

And there probably is. I can tell you, I’m not that person. Yeah. No, there are people who do not mind to step into conflict and there are people who sense it and they run away. Right, because they’re conflict avoidant. I mean, there’s a whole host in between that. And you can take this too far. 

I mean, having the difficult conversation can almost become like a badge of honor. Like, I’m going to really engage this and really what it is, is just a guise for pushing our point through to somebody else, almost bullying someone. I mean, you can go to an extreme to that level. 

That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about this idea of desiring dialogue, desiring conversation, desiring relationship so much that we aren’t going to settle in this place of having this wall between us, but we’re willing to engage to try to break down that wall in a loving manner. 

You know, just as you were saying that you painted this tension. That there are times that we should be acting, but we’re passive and we’re not acting. And yet there are times when we maybe are acting and we should be patient. The difference between patience and passivity I think can be easily conflated, especially, especially which one I’m using, right? 

So, I don’t know. Help us with that space. There’s probably no perfect answer. I mean, that’s a great tension to paint out. There’s probably no perfect answer. It’s something that each person has to wrestle through a little bit and it really pushes you to this place of saying, okay, what do I really want in a scenario? 

Right. With a relationship, you’ve got to count the cost and we stay away from it for a lot of reasons. I mean, most of us have a fear of rejection, right? We have a fear of failure. These are not easy things to do. And you see kind of this passivity easily step in. And become very enticing. And so, it’s a real, I think, heart level challenge that first happens in us. Especially I’m thinking as a believer, you’re trying to weigh out, okay, Lord, what do you want me to do here? 

Kind of praying that through. Christ says, examine your own life to take the beam out before you take the mote out and those kinds of things. That’s all true. Those are all part of that self-analysis process. But I’ve often said that. You know, 90 percent of the battle or maybe 80 percent of the battle is in this getting myself right, getting my place right before I engage into it. 

I think that’s excellent. I think so. We’ve kind of illustrated the space that it’s difficult to know sometimes when to step in and perhaps that’s what separates a wise person from maybe a foolish one as they know when to pocket veto and when it works, right? And then when not to. So, but now let’s push ahead and say we do have a matter that needs to be addressed. 

And what I’m getting from what you’re saying is you really evaluate that based on trajectory. What’s our trajectory here? Are we tracking in a good place? What is the end or the future if this matter is not addressed? And that sounds to me like something that is guiding for you. 

Yeah. What’s the cost of not engaging versus what’s the cost of engaging and thinking that through. And I think there’s another piece too, Matt, do we really value dialogue? Do we really value engagement with others? Because there’s a path that we can walk, that’s very closed off, echo chamberish, meaning we just listen to what we want to listen to or hear what we want to hear, confident and sure that we are right in all things and that will take us a certain way. 

Or there’s also a path we can choose as a mindset that says dialogue is good, engagement is good. I don’t know everything, but I value relationship in my life and I value it enough to be willing to step into hard conversations to keep that relationship alive if necessary. 

 So, what I’m hearing there even is a little bit of the goals. And in fact, that’s my question to you, what should our goals be for a difficult conversation that needs to be had? I think immediately in my mind I’m thinking well influence. I’ve got a matter that needs to be influenced. I need to step into this but it sounds to me that there’s more. What’s going on in your thinking about what should be accomplished or maybe what needs to be accomplished in these hard conversations? 

If influence is the goal, if we’re not careful, it becomes a point of just getting our way with others or just making sure things are accomplished. We’re almost encouraged in society to do that. You know, push your point through, prove your point, that kind of thing. I think we have to fight against that to some extent. 

I think a better goal is this idea of dialogue, of conversation, of relationship, where there’s a level of safety, where I feel safe, the other person feels safe, we have an openness about each other in that relationship that we’re willing to step into hard things to keep that relationship. How do you build that safety? 

That safety question, Matt, is a great question. It’s a key question. It starts again, we go back to this idea of a mindset, but it starts a little bit with this mindset that says I value the other person. I value them. I desire to have a relationship with them. And so therefore I’m moving myself from a place of forcing my way upon them. 

Not that it doesn’t mean we have things we want to share in a direction we’d like it to go, but to a place of where I’m encouraging relationship. And so that’s going to factor into our demeanor, how we approach it. If it’s viewed as this place of intimidation, that shuts down that safety. So, even just how do we think about setting the boundaries or the atmosphere around the conversation? 

That’s one aspect. But then how do you get into that conversation? I think by nature, often we want to go to this place of emotion. And usually when you’re dealing with difficult conversations or hard conversations, there’s a lot of emotion involved. And that’s why they’ve gotten to this point. There’s maybe a frustration with how things are going or just stories that we start to tell ourselves that build this emotion with our mind. 

Part of that hard work is sorting out the facts from the story, separating out the emotions from what’s really happened, and then being sure to begin the conversation in a place of fact, not emotions. I mean, Matt, how much do you like it when someone just comes in with both guns blazing? 

Where’s that going to go? This is what I’m thinking too, from experience, both in disciplining my own children and in the classroom. I found these axioms to be true. I don’t quite know how to live them out. One is if I’m passionate with negative. If I’m passionate with correction, it doesn’t go well, but I should be passionate with encouragement. So, like passion and emotion with encouragement, great ideas. Passion and emotion with negative, that’s difficult, but it’s hard not to. So, I think that’s what you’re hitting on is balancing that. 

I think another way, just a good self-check is just how many absolutes are you using in your statement? You know, like you always, or you never, right? Whenever you start the idea with you and then throw in an absolute, you’ve usually got both wrong feet. You start off on both wrong feet versus this place of saying, hey, I noticed this behavior or I’m wondering about this situation. Can we talk more about it? Just a totally different demeanor. In one you’re absolutely going to exaggerate and try to prove the point. In the other situation, we’re gently entering into it with facts, seeking to build conversation.  

I’d like another one I think that’s been very helpful is to caution against using why questions. Yeah, why did you do this? Or why was it that way? Comes across accusatory, but said another way, help me understand how. Yeah. I mean, you can finish the same question, get the same information, but help me understand how is so much softer and also then takes that passion down and allows us to be more objective as well. 

Yeah. We’ve really gotten into the skill set here, Matt, with some of these observations, because you’re starting with getting your heart in the right place and just your whole approach in the right place. I mean, another skill that I have used regularly, and I encourage others to do is sometimes if it’s a really difficult conversation, you’re going to have to step into sketch it out, kind of write it down. 

Like what would you ask and push yourself with the questions you’re writing down? You know, are these laden with emotion or are these absolute statements or are these you, accusatory versus really seeking to understand. It’s okay to practice this before you step into it. Now, sometimes we can’t have that luxury. 

Right. Sometimes this happens more in the moment because they’re all sprung on us. Yeah. But when it’s something planned out, definitely take the time to think it through. And it sounds to me like you’re being very thoughtful about what my goal is in this conversation because they can go sideways pretty quickly. 

And then all of a sudden we’re talking about something we had no intention talking about and it’s not even helpful. Yeah. In fact, it’s hurtful. Yeah. And there’s that gentle steering. So, is there bringing it back? Yeah, there is. There’s that gentle steering. And that’s easy to say. And sometimes it can happen. And sometimes it just isn’t. I mean, sometimes the right approach is to say, you know what, this has gotten too passionate. Let’s take a break and get back to this. But I’m purposed to get back to this and just let the emotions calm down. I mean, there’s an aspect of this with the safety and everything we talked about. 

You know, you got to put positive experiences into the bucket before you draw a more difficult one first. No one likes the drive by admonishment or whatever that happens there, so again, part of preparing for these hard conversations is making sure that we are nurturing and encouraging positive interchanges whenever possible. 

It’s that idea of encouragement. Are we quick to encourage so that we can be, have the more difficult conversations because we’ve built up that positive experience? You know, that’s, that’s interesting. You mentioned drive by. Uh, so in the classroom, sometimes I would announce to my students, as I would say, you know, I’m really worked up about something and I’m just going to give a little lecture here and I’m going to go over to this corner over here and I’m going to give it right there. So, I’ll walk over there, and I’ll give it and then I’ll leave that corner. And I think it’s important for them to see I’m leaving that corner like that’s been done. 

So there needs to be some boundaries, like I’m entering into it and now we’re exiting it as opposed to passivity, meaning I’m just dripping it out all the time. Yeah. Right? Because that’s part of the collateral damage of not having these conversations. Yeah. Is it that it tenors everything? Or we go passive aggressive. Yeah. Right? And we have these little snide comments.  

That was very helpful for me, Arlan, who is a conflict avoider. Okay. Yeah. But to think about. These hard conversations actually allow us to have easy conversations the rest of our life. 

Oh man, sign me up. And that, I think that’s helpful. And that is part of that counting the cost, right? If we do nothing, we will go this way and the walls will be built and they’ll become harder and harder. But if we can address this at an earlier stage because we’ve built up a relationship because we have shared love already and shared safety already. 

We can address this an earlier stage. It makes things go smoother down the road. You know, we’ve bounced around and we’ve talked about skill sets. We’ve talked about mindsets. I do want you to talk a little bit about what I think is an important aspect of these and I’ve heard you use the term sharing stories or managing your stories. 

That’s a real key part in having this conversation and doing it well. Speak more to that. It’s really this idea that when you’re imagining that scenario or thinking about that stuckness, that place where you feel stuck and you need to get into a conversation, taking the time to reflect upon what’s going on and what really has happened and what’s fact versus what have I built up in my mind? 

I mean, some of us are novelists in the sense of the stories we can tell ourselves. We really build that up and separate out those two things. And then when you engage in the conversation, make sure that you’re engaging it in the place of fact and not in the place of story. I mean, Scripture would talk about the danger of assumptions. 

Yes. Right. That’s really what we’re talking about here is how many of us make assumptions and Arlan these moments are ripe for prolific novel writing. Yeah. Aren’t they? So, if I’ve got a difficult conversation that needs to be had, man, I’ve made a meal of it for quite a long time, and some of us have made meals of conversations for years. We’ve made a meal of it. So, sorting out fact from fiction is becoming more and more difficult. But what I hear you saying is trying to do due diligence in finding fact, sorting out fiction. But I would guess that probably sends you into that conversation with a demeanor that says I’m not sure I know completely what the story is. 

Is that true? That’s critical. And I call it the curiosity mindset. Forcing yourself into this curiosity mindset that says, I don’t know everything. There’s more to the story. There’s more that I don’t have a full understanding of. And I’m really seeking to understand. I mean, you hear that phrase tossed out there, right? 

Seek to understand more than to be understood. There’s a principle there where it’s based upon this idea that I want to know the full story because you matter. Relationship matters. Dialogue matters. Let’s learn and grow together. Arlan, I could expect that somebody’s listening right now and saying to themselves, I just don’t, I don’t have the words very often to have this hard conversation. 

Plus, the person I need to have it with is like a professional tennis player, and I’m just going to get walloped and it’s hard for me to communicate, let alone high stakes. Boy, I can really empathize with that. Right? What are your thoughts?  

It’s such a such a good question, Matt. Such a hard question. And so true. And that’s probably one of the reasons why many of us avoid these is because we feel like we won’t be able to do it justice or will just get overwhelmed by somebody else. And so, I think first off, there’s an aspect where we realize God has not called us to win or to make sure it’s done perfectly, but just to be faithful, right? 

So, kind of set our expectations to say I’m feeling nudged by the Spirit into this and I’m going to be faithful. I think sometimes this is where the idea of writing it out maybe even a letter might be the right approach. I’m not an anonymous letter. You know, this is about relationship So it’s names and all that kind of thing, but just maybe writing it out I’ve seen it before where people actually read a script, you know, in a scenario to get started just so they can get certain things through or make sure they say things the way they want to say them. 

And then I think even just being really clear to say, you know, I’m not going to say it all right. You know, almost this humble approach. I know I’m not going to say it all right, but here are some points that I really hope you hear. And then Matt, again, you go to this place to realize, you know, we can’t control what other people do or how they respond to things. We can only control ourselves and be faithful with our intent to engage in a loving manner with the relationship at our focus.  

I think that’s helpful. I think you’ve given some very practical suggestions. I think another one could be a mediator. You might bring a third party in. There are times when that’s absolutely appropriate, especially if the emotions have gotten to a place where you’re not going to hear each other on both sides because there’s a level of emotion that’s just gotten so high. 

It pushes us to that place of humility, right? A key aspect behind it is, am I approaching this humbly to build that relationship, or am I approaching this in a way to prove my point? That’s not what we’re talking about here. We’re talking about loving each other well.  

Arlan, this has been, I think, hugely helpful, but say a little bit here as we close about the opportunity. 

Yeah. I think a key point, Matt, is we can view these again, especially for conflict avoidants at all, as really hard things. And we’re saying difficult conversations. We don’t enter into these flippantly, and we don’t enter into these lightly, but I think to view the opportunity of relationship, engagement, encouragement. Proverbs says a word spoken in due season, is like apples of gold in pitchers of silver, right?  

That conversation can have to minister grace, to the hearers, but it goes back to that place of motivation. Back to that place of love and back to where we value the other person so much that we are going to engage them. That’s the opportunity. We value them so much that we are going to engage them. 

Christ did not shy away from hard conversations. He was wise and he chose time and place and all of those kinds of things, but he had this wonderful value. that he placed in that creation, that you tell one of us that he’s willing to go out there and talk it through. And that’s really the heart, I think. 

Let’s talk it through. And I appreciate that. And I think that’s hugely valuable. Thanks for being on. Thanks, each one for listening in. No doubt issues matter. Perhaps people have come to mind that thought, you know what, I’ve been pushing off a conversation for long enough. Perhaps today we’ve got a little bit of a mindset and a skill set put in place to think about and be prayerful about that conversation. Thanks for being here.