Selfishness

I guess I would just invite the freedom to have personal preferences, to have things that you enjoy that are different from other people. Enjoy being willing to put those on the table. Not in a demanding, this has to be the way this unfolds, and to not see that as selfish, but as to see that as an opportunity to share yourself with another person. 

Welcome everyone to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. I am Matt Kaufman. I’ve got Brian Sutter with me today. Brian, we’re going to talk about selfishness. Should be fun. It’s something that we can all relate to. And this is a topic that you’ve raised. 

I am really intrigued. And so, I want to get you into the topic as soon as possible. But I’m just going to start by saying I think selfishness is one of those terms that is understood among everyone as a negative, Christian or non-Christian. If somebody is called selfish, we know what we should think about that. 

That is not a desirable trait to have. Yeah, that’s exactly right. And I think you’re right that the starting place is to acknowledge that selfishness is universally seen as somewhere we don’t want to be, and we don’t want to be seen as, we don’t want to be labeled that direction. And so, what do we do with it and what even is selfishness, and I’d like to go there. This topic has come out of the work that you do here, so let’s start with that definition piece. How would you do it?  

Well, I mean, I think to start with is just an acknowledgement. The group that I’m really wanting to speak towards is that group that, like when they think of being labeled as selfish, they’re like, oh no. And there’s panic that comes over them. I know there’s another group that’s pretty quick to dismiss that, and that’s legitimate too. And that would be maybe another podcast. But now I’m just thinking about selfishness to that person who’s just terrified of being selfish and they maybe would, what I would call, define selfishness as having a desire. And that really puts them in a difficult place.  

If you say you’re selfish, if you have desires, then the goal becomes to eliminate desires or to not care about anything or not to have any preferences. And I think that would be what I’m trying to move away from as far as a definition, So, I think part of defining a term is seeing what it is and what it’s not and maybe where we’ve gone off the rails with the term. So, I think you just took a right-hand turn for a lot of our listeners when we are thinking about this topic, what you’re positing here in this podcast is that we have to have a good understanding of selfishness because it’s such a weighty word. 

It’s so influential. And if we get it wrong, it has ill-health effect. Is that true? Exactly. If we start in the wrong place defining it, it can have really negative consequences and, you know, taking us down the road that we don’t actually intend or desire to go down and we don’t even realize maybe that’s because we’ve started with a definition that’s not helpful and makes things bad that aren’t necessarily bad. 

Let’s go for that definition. And I think you’ve supplied authoritative mindset or connotation. So, if we were to put healthy selfishness next to unhealthy selfishness or whatever, if you look at the King James Bible, the word selfishness does not show up, but strife does. 

If you look at some of the other versions, that word is defined or translated. Selfish ambition. And so, I think that starts to give us a little bit better flavor of how to define it in a helpful way. This picture of I have something, I want something, I desire something, and then I’m going to pursue it and fight for it in a way that’s going to lead towards strife or is going to be motivated from achievement, power, and control and moving in that direction at the expense of another person. Exactly that. It’s a lack of interest in what the other person wants or cares. And just to focus on what I want and how do I push forward in that, regardless of how it may impact another person. 

So, at the beginning, you laid out two different audiences. So, there is a whole segment devoted towards selfishness going awry in people, and that’s a real issue. Some might not even be aware that they are selfish in their behavior. But we’re going to set that conversation aside today. 

Am I hearing you right? Yeah, I think so. And we are going to now look at the other population who are ruled by a fear of selfishness. Yes. Is that right? Right. Is it really okay to have a desire or a preference, and for that to be spoken and shared in a relationship? That’s the person we’re talking to. If our understanding of selfishness is only desire, we’re not thinking accurately about the term, right? Yep. What that practically means then when you are with a friend and it’s time to go to lunch and they’re saying, hey, what do you want? And you might be thinking, well, pizza sounds really good, but boy if I say this, I may be selfish, and therefore I shouldn’t say it. 

Right. And again, we’re not advocating that you say pizza and you demand that you go get pizza with your friend, but to be able, well, let’s take this out. Let’s take that scenario. Sure. Two people going to lunch, right? No. You decide. No, you decide. No. You decide. No, you decide. Right. Exactly. We can see how far that goes. 

We laugh about it, but you can see where things break down with that simple desire. Whereas if we would welcome, I think the Scriptures would give us freedom to say, yeah, you know what? I’m interested in pizza. What are you interested in? And they’re interested in going to Mexican. 

And we can have discussion around that. And it doesn’t have to be something that’s divisive or negative or strife. It can actually be very relational and connecting, oh, I didn’t even know that you liked Mexican. And it can actually draw us together. Whereas hiding and saying, I don’t have any interest in it, just gets us stuck. 

There actually is relational health that happens when we have personal desires and embrace them in community. Exactly. Is that right? Yeah. I think the Lord has given relationships as one of the primary things that refine us, and it’s a beautiful thing. It’s often a painful thing, but if we don’t have a good picture and we’re not tuned into what we actually are interested in or what our preferences are, what our gifts and talents are, and we just kind of try to cut those off, that’s going to make it very difficult to engage in relationships that can help bring that out. And we can be sacrificial sometimes, and sometimes maybe we do get to  do what we prefer and the other person is sacrificial and it’s a healthy thing for both of us. It can refine and encourage both of us. 

Well, just even what you said there, Brian, I think gives us another litmus test. Because you talked about how God has created us. So, a part of a person’s understanding is a reflection on their desires through the lens of God’s creation. Which takes us another Y in the road, a really healthy Y to say what we’re talking about here is it’s not just all desires. 

We’re talking about those desires that are uniquely us because God has made us uniquely us. And to be able to honor those and to see those not as bad things that we get rid of, we certainly want to align our desires over time to connect with the Lord. But I think in many ways that doesn’t necessarily mean the desires change as much as how we look at those desires and how we treat those desires. 

We don’t want to hide them, nor do we want them to rule, but to have a healthy relationship with that underneath the umbrella of God being the ultimate authority. You know, Brian, and not only does this help me reflect on myself, but the desires of other people. Because I think you’re right. If we don’t get this definition right, I could label people as being selfish pretty quickly. And we often do that. And when you do that, it’s almost like a trump card and it stalls things out. Like you are being selfish, and they might be, but I think it’s much more helpful to look at it through a lens of, boy, it looks like you’re really interested in that. 

Help me understand. And again, moving back into relational connection rather than putting out a term or a label that’s actually going to dissolve relationship, dissolve a community. That’s pretty easy to do for all of us. Yeah, for sure. Alright, so Brian, you raised this topic and you shared it with me as one that was worthwhile to present in this venue because of the work that you do in the counseling room. So, I want you to give us maybe a little bit of a sketch so that we can see how impactful this is. And why it’s important to get it right.  

I think my heart in this is just to see so many who mean to do well, who want to be sacrificial, and therefore they just keep coming up against this. Well, I would go to bed earlier, but it seems like that would be selfish or, I would share with my friend my hope and desire to do this, but I think that would be selfish or, I would like to work on this project, but it seems like that would be selfish in a way that just sucks the joy out of life and really makes it hard for them to be in relationship with anybody because they aren’t able to share anything about themselves without feeling like it’s a selfish act. And it’s so isolating and it just holds people at arm’s length, and that would be the thing that I just want to encourage people that we don’t want to be selfish, but also to rightly define the term so that we can live in a way that is full of life and the abundance of life that Christ offers us, rather than feeling like we just have to turn everything off. 

Because so much of a relationship is that vulnerability of desire, isn’t it? Right, exactly. Like that intimacy that says, hey, I want you to know who I am and see who I am. And if we take that off the table, which I think this way of defining selfishness does, then you’re outside of relational intimacy. And that’s a painful place to be, we’re not created to be in that. A person with no desires is probably pretty boring, right? Exactly. You’re just along, you’re just a passive follower and you’re meaning to do well, but you know, everybody can look and say, what is it that you’re interested or, I don’t really know anything about you, or we want people to have this picture, we want to know you, even if what you’re interested in is different than what I’m interested in. I’d like to know that and at least have a conversation around that. All right. 

So, I’m going to use this opportunity, okay. Since how I am in your office. Sure. This isn’t just high-platitude stuff, right. This weekend my son asked me to do something with him on Saturday from 1 to 4. And Brian, I can just tell you, I’m looking at the weather and I’ve got some jobs I need to get done around the house. This might be my only opportunity in weeks, and I haven’t had it in weeks. A free Saturday is like golden. Right? Sure. And I have gone through the selfish role in my head, you know? Yeah. And I’m not even sure where I’m landing on this, but my point is, this is what you’re talking about, isn’t it? 

Yes. I have a desire for my Saturday. And some rationale. And he has a desire and he’ll be cool with what I decide, but I want to do the right thing. Right. And that voice of selfishness is a very weighty voice. And I think that’s exactly the kind of thing we’re talking about that you get in this spot of whose desire wins. 

And it can be really challenging. And this doesn’t give an answer to that question, but I think what it does is just as it’s not wrong to have a desire for what your Saturday and afternoon looks like and the reality that those are precious and limited opportunities and that to be at least a discussion or a thought process rather than how terrible of a person I am to want to do this project on a Saturday afternoon. No, I think there should be space for that, those are good things to do. And even that can be a really helpful thing in connection with your son, whether it goes the way he would like it to go or the way that you would like it to go. That can be a beautiful opportunity to navigate relationship and not something to avoid. 

Which we’ve all done, is doing things out of guilt. That’s not fun for anybody. No, it isn’t. And so, really, you’re providing a template to avoid that. Because that, over the long run, is going to lead to bitterness and frustration and getting caught in this really negative cycle of nobody cares about me, nobody pays attention to what I want, and I’ve just got to do what everybody else wants. 

And if that’s the road that you choose. I think the outcome is going to be bitterness, loneliness, cut-off isolation. And you’re trying to do it out of a good thing, right? We’re trying to be like Jesus. Exactly. But, yeah, but we’re not. So, part of it is really understanding ourselves and understanding the choice’s before us and the reasons for why we would make that choice. 

And really putting that voice of selfishness in the right place. And then embracing that interaction, that relationship, that desire, really makes it possible. And I think even in that, in your example, like to be able to embrace and highlight your son’s desire, that’s a good thing. 

And that we want him to be able to recognize what his desires are. And it can be easy, especially as parents, to move into that space that says, well, my desire is better because it’s getting something done and it’s work and yours is just play. And again, it starts to minimize good, healthy desires versus like, boy, I’m excited. I’m glad that you like that. That’s neat that you’ve got a group of people that you want to do that with. I’ve got this thing over here, like, how do we work through this together? Both of those are good desires and it’s honoring that. And I think that’s a really good thing. Yeah, I love that. I think that’s helpful. 

Okay. This has really been helpful, Brian, and this is a surprising conversation, which I love. I love that, and so why don’t we have some closing comments. I want you to maybe address how we’re thinking about selfishness and maybe both of those audiences again.  

Sure. As we come to a close, I would just invite the freedom to have personal preferences, to have things that you enjoy that are different from other people. Enjoy being willing to put those on the table. Not in a demanding, this has to be the way this unfolds way, but in a, hey, this is where I’m at. I’m curious where you’re at and just to engage that risk and to not see that as selfish, but to see that as an opportunity to share yourself with another person. 

And the other person who’s just like, well, selfish, of course I’m not selfish, I’ll help refine people. You know, to be able to just think, well actually you might be on the other side of the fence. And that you might have to think about how to not pursue selfish ambition. And if there’s strife and if we are at the expense of others. If you constantly find your place in that place of strife, that might be a signal that actually you are fighting for your desires in a way that is quite selfish. And then Brian, maybe if we get this right, we might live exciting lives.  

Like when your friend invites you over to for sushi, you can say, boy, no thanks. I don’t think I would ever do that, but I guess I’d try it. And then you might say, no, this is terrible. I’m out. And actually, I don’t think that would be the case with you, I think you will enjoy the sushi. Exactly. I think it does open up the possibility of trying new things that you maybe never would otherwise. 

And again, it doesn’t have to be your new thing. But it can bring some adventure and excitement and I think some joy to life. Yeah. I love that. I love that. Thanks for sharing this. And I think we’ve just captured maybe even a picture, how God has designed relationships and the beauty of what he has created. 

How he has created us and the uniqueness of 2, 3, 4 unique people coming together. You’re going to have a place for this to happen. You’re right. Which is exciting. It is exciting. And it can be really life-giving, or it can be really draining either way. And if we can catch a vision for how this can be life-giving, I think it would be so exciting for the church family and relationships and even just personally. 

Yeah. I love that. Thanks. And thank you each one for listening in. I’m sure you have your own examples just as I have of things to think throughout and hopefully this conversation has stirred up your mind to think about these things through the lens of God’s creation and what he intends for us and our desire and good healthy relationship. 

Bless you in that. So, thanks each one for being here.