Lessons Learned From Mentoring Podcast

The cross is central, and prayer is essential. Every part of life intersects with the cross at some level. And if we understand the dynamics of what happened there, and what Jesus did for us there, it will change how we interact with life. Welcome friends to Breaking Bread, the podcast brought to you by Apostolic Christian Counseling and Family Services. 

It’s great to have you along. And I’m very privileged to have two guests here in the studio, Katie Miller, who’s been on some other previous episodes. Hello Katie. Hello. It’s good to be here again, Matt. Marcia Koch is here for the first time. Thanks, Marcia, for coming in. Yeah, I’m privileged to be here. Thanks for inviting me.  

I have brought both these individuals in and asked them to talk about the topic of mentoring. Because I know mentoring lies very near to both of your hearts. But before we get too far into this. We have been introduced to Katie. Marcia, why don’t you say a few things about yourself so people can kind of place that voice. 

Okay. Go ahead, Marcia. So yeah, I’m Marcia Koch and I’m married to Justin. We go to church in Washington and I’m a teacher by profession but homeschool our two sons and now I’m in the grandparent stage. Excellent. So, this concept of mentoring discipleship, you know, sometimes we maybe exchange one term for the other. 

And maybe to even set the stage, it’s very near to the mission of ACCFS to breathe life into mentoring wherever we can in the local churches. And that’s really where this particular podcast finds its place. We would like to both motivate and equip ourselves in this area, but let’s start with just a rough definition of what we think. 

It’s sharing relationship, its sharing life, its sharing the good, the bad, the ugly, whether it’s the presence of a mentoring relationship or sometimes just a need of clarity, a need of love, a need of some kind of piece of relationship is what mentors do. Mentoring, at least in my mind, relationships become key. 

You can’t have mentorship without personal interaction, right? Absolutely. There are a lot of ways to be self-helped in our world of media out the wazoo, but none of that really qualifies for mentoring, does it? I agree. Yeah. You can get a lot in a relationship by just body language, by eyebrows raising, by eyes smiling. 

You know, tears welling, things of that nature that a podcast, a book, a TV program, you name it, that doesn’t reach. I’m glad you included podcasts. So, we do not over approximate ourselves here. That’s right. This is not the answer to a mentoring relationship, ladies. This is not it. But stay tuned. 

You’ll find out. Marcia, how would you maybe accent that definition or add to it? I just try to keep Jesus as model and view. So, Jesus wanted to disciple or mentor 12 men, and he didn’t do it from heaven. He didn’t write a book and send it down to them, but he came to earth and lived among them. The Scripture says he tabernacled, he tented among us. 

And I just think that means he came and engaged in their life. And although we will never do that to that extent. That is much the same way I am entering into someone’s life. Following the model of Jesus is so exciting. That this is something that He has sanctioned by His doing. Which is exciting. 

So, I would guess that you, Marcia, draw pretty heavily on what you learn out of Jesus doing. Right. For sure. And so that really leads us to, I’ve asked these sisters to consider, what three lessons have you learned as you have stepped into a relationship with people and have mentored or have been mentored? 

And so, Marcia, let’s start with, give us one lesson that you’ve learned. Okay, well, Katie and I wondered if we’d have overlap when we answer these, and I would say we already have because one of the foundational understandings that I’ve come to is that mentoring is primarily relational, not educational. 

So, although your advice and your answers are an important element in the relationship, actually, the friendship is foundational. You know, there’s a phrase that will occur to me that will tell me if I’m more on the educational part of things. And that’s when I think, didn’t I tell you this already? I just said that last week. 

Has that ever entered your mind? Yeah, didn’t we cover this before? And the need, Marcia brings up a good point, the need may be educational. The need might be a direction, a journey, an answer, a question. The need may be educational in and of itself. Yeah, and as a teacher, very often this concept of covering things was kind of our pursuit, which falls way short in education having said something or covered something thinking that suffices all that needs to be done.  

What you’re saying, Marcia, is no, that is a part of what needs to be done. But that other hugely important foundation is relationships. Absolutely. And so, I think that relationship, as you think about any relationship, as you think about any friendship, a couple things came to mind for me is just what grows a relationship is that there needs to be vulnerability. 

There needs to be an atmosphere of trust. And so, you’re not only asking questions and engaging in them, but you’re also disclosing part of your own life. And you’re disclosing some of your own fears and struggles in the relationship. As a mentor you are. Absolutely, yeah. Okay, so you’ve given us some equipment to think about. My job as a mentor is to be vulnerable as well. 

This is not a one-way vulnerability. I can’t ask a mentee to be vulnerable with her heart if Katie Miller is not vulnerable with her heart. Okay. Yep. And I think that makes sense. I totally agree. Do you even lead that way? Is that how you start a relationship? I would probably tend to respond as she’s sharing something and I’m thinking, Oh my goodness. 

I’ve experienced this and I experienced it in this setting. Yeah. In a Holy Spirit led kind of way. Wait for the moment to say, I’m not saying that I’ve experienced exactly what you’ve experienced. But I think I’ve experienced something similar that maybe has common principles. And why did you preface it with that disclaimer? 

Because I think that’s important. It must be important for you to say that. Yeah. I say that a lot because it’s important for them to understand that I am not just generalizing them. I think that was, actually it was one of the second things I wrote. Yeah, my second one was this sense of mentoring is not a one size fits all. 

It’s very unique, because God has all of us on a very unique journey. But you really honor them in allowing them uniqueness. Validating their emotions, validating their struggle, validating their feelings and so forth. I definitely agree with Marcia. I put there is no three steps fix it manual for relationships. 

The Bible is clear with that. The messiness of family relationships, the messiness of today’s relationships. We cannot approach this in our teacher mindset. I said it. I covered it. Take a test on it. Done. Right? That’s not relational. I’ve often thought it’s so comforting to know that God sees the uniqueness that we all carry. 

You know, as I envision your interactions with folks, so much of that is trying to understand. Trying to understand and starting with a preset that you don’t understand and trying to understand that and to know that God sees that and completely understands. As you use the word mess, God understands that mess back 20 generations. Isn’t that comforting to know that we’re trained as humans when there’s a problem, when there’s a struggle, we go in, we troubleshoot, we fix it. It’s our nature. It’s what we’re trained from little on up to be a thinker and to just be hands on and with relationships, God says, no, well, that comment really begs the question. What is our goal? Well, I think maybe it comes back to another thing I think that I’ve learned is just that the cross is central, and that prayer is essential. I’ve just learned that every part of life intersects with the cross at some level and if we understand the dynamics of what happened there and what Jesus did for us there it would change how we interact with life and so we love because we’ve been loved. 

It sounds to me, Marcia, you’ve got very much in your view, whatever the topic you’re on, you have the cross maybe in the background or maybe where you’re driving and you must be thinking then, how would bringing this person more to the cross, what color would that add to this picture? Am I saying that right? 

Oh, that’s better stated than I could have. Because I think that’s the equipment. Yeah, for sure. How to piece, and often sometimes if it’s a decision or trying to point them to that cross, point them to the central piece of the gospel, sometimes they can’t see that cross. Sometimes there’s too much blocking the view. 

Sometimes there’s something else. Maybe there’s a specific need or question they come to you. Sometimes those needs are public, a move, a different location. Oh, yes. A job. A new baby. A marriage. All of those are very public needs. But sometimes there are those private needs to be aware of. And one thing I can kind of sense, a drastic change in a regular habit. 

Maybe it was an attendance habit or a lifestyle change. Okay. So, these would be things that you would notice. Absolutely. Totally. In fact, I often, at the beginning of a relationship, just try to ask up front, what are your goals? What are your expectations? Yeah. What are you hungry for? Yeah. And some of them want to start with Scripture. 

Some of them want to start with a book and talk about the content. Yeah. Some just want to come with talking about a struggle they’re having or something. But as you listen and as you process, you listen to their self-talk, their internal dialogue. And when you listen for their fears, when you’re listening for just how they’re processing whatever the material is, then I’m always trying to think in the back of my mind, so how does the cross intersect with this? What does it matter that Jesus died? Yeah. I think you just gave us an important lens. Listening for self-talk, listening, you said that inner dialogue, can you expound a little bit on that, and then Katie I’d like to hear your thoughts on that important piece, because I think that’s also equipment. 

Oh, it’s huge. So, all of us have this tape recorder that’s running in our brains. Sometimes when we’re in a hard spot, we can tend to just get stuck, like it’s just stuck, it’s just repeating and rehearsing and rehearsing, and you need to be able to hear those kinds of things in people’s talk, in their dialogue with you. 

Can you give me an example of maybe a script that might be running in a person’s head? Something like I can’t forgive. This just hurts too much. They haven’t asked for forgiveness. I can’t forgive. I can’t move on from here, or I’m not worthy, or I’m not beautiful. If I’m not perfect, I’m not good enough. I will never fit in. 

I’m not worthy of this marriage. Relationship love. The common lies we believe are numerous and all of those examples that you just gave are dead ends. They’re like those big heavy block intersection walls and that’s a blockage to the cross, right? That’s a blocking venue and you can pick that up and just conversation and honestly, sometimes it’s because I’ve experienced the same self-taught or I believe the same lie at some point in my life. 

Yes. Don’t you think sometimes we get so comfortable with our self-talk that it becomes our good friend to us? Unfortunately, yes. It becomes our comfort place. It becomes our comfort place. That’s a great way to say it, Marcia. It becomes our comfort place. So, to really push through that, you’re really asking, going back to vulnerability, that’s downright scary to say that there is another option out there, which I don’t know is going to be as much comfort. 

Sometimes we forget, I think, our self-talk, the lies we believe, the comparison game, you name it, fills in the blank. We forget that the past and the histories and decisions, is going to shape us going forward, but it doesn’t have to define us. It can shape us, but not define us. And so, to get sisters and to get myself to, you know, stop that self-talk and to focus on the next step, which I had down is just listening for and asking good questions and get them to stop the trajectory and go towards something healthy is key. 

So, this is one of the top three lessons you’ve learned. Asking good questions. You know, not a one answer, yes, no type of question, but I’ll give you an example. Are you content? That’s a great question to ask a lady or a sister, right? Are you content? Or could I ask, what right now is a blessing in your life? 

Wait for it. See if they can find a positive. See what blessing they have in their life. And then, if one thing could change right now, what would that be? What does that look like? So, I’m asking the content piece, I’m having them find a positive, but I’m also going forward and saying, if I could snap my finger and one thing could change right now, what would you want that to be? 

And that really gets to their prioritization of the issues in their life, doesn’t it? It helps me as a mentor know, okay, what just elevated up and what’s the first area that I need to love, pray, and encourage through. And then could I get them to find a positive? Could I get them to acknowledge a grateful peace? 

And sometimes that’s really hard. Sometimes those blessings aren’t there. Yeah. Marcia, asking questions. What have you learned when it comes to that? Yeah, asking clarifying questions. I find that to be very helpful. So, they make a statement like nobody loves me. You have to pull out. So, what does that look like? 

If nobody loves you? Tell me what that means to you. Give me an example, right? Can you tell me why you feel that way right now? Exactly. What kind of things have been happening that make you say that about yourself? That’s really strong. Wow. I’m really sorry you feel that way. I’ve used this example before because this is the way I think in silly cartoons, I guess, but so much of communication is a Mad Lib, isn’t it? 

We’ve all played Mad Libs, where some of the words are filled in, and then there’s blanks where you’re supposed to put an adjective, an adverb, and a noun, and so on and so forth. And while we communicate, we’re just always putting in words, filling in the blanks with the things that make sense to us. And we’ve all played that game. 

Right? Everybody comes up with a different story, and really, as I hear you talking about asking good questions and then further clarifying, what you’re doing is you’re saying, I can’t fill in the blank here with this noun. You’re going to need to do that. Let’s clarify. I think, too, sometimes when we clarify or ask him, the verbiage is, so if I heard you right, you’re telling me, and you fill in what they just shared. 

You allow them to correct you. Absolutely. Number one, you allow them to correct you if you misunderstood the Mad Lib. And number two, sometimes when they hear it from someone else’s mouth, it doesn’t sound like that. It sounds different from someone else’s mouth than it sounds from their own. It’s amazing. 

Even in healthy friendship, when I hear somebody say something, I just thought I said, I’m like, Oh, no, backup. That’s not what I meant by that. So, it’s just that communication piece with men to mentor relationships. Sometimes when I hear some of my own heart struggles from a friend, I’m like, oh, so I have got to put my finger on, I think what an important point we’re making right here, this is why. 

Interpersonal relationships are required for mentoring, because you’ll never hear that dialogue by just listening to a podcast, reading a book, watching a video on a certain something. I think you’re helping us see the mentoring process brings out what’s in our brains through expression, through words. And then once that is out, outside of us, then we can look at it. 

We can work on it in light of the cross and go someplace. Right, right. And think about it. Yeah. For sure. Yeah. Marcia, do you have other relations you’ve learned? So, at the beginning, I always try to find a sustainable, regular meeting time. It’s not going to probably be thinkable that you’re going to actually meet once a week but try to meet at least once a month. And that will morph because there are times when they have more availability or less availability and you in your life Go all through the best season but try to keep it somewhat regular. So, I hear what you’re saying is what’s even more important than frequency is regularity Yeah, that can be established in an initial conversation whether it’s a formal mentoring or just a natural relationship within a church body or community that happens. But yeah, making sure the expectations of what you are able to give matches the need of what they want and so forth and be really creative with that. 

It doesn’t have to be a two-hour coffee session at a coffee shop at any age. I found I really think anyone can mentor. You just have to be creative. You just have to be willing to be available. To care and to have that compassion is really key. But yeah, setting good boundaries. It’s one thing I said too, it’s not how much you know, it’s how much you care. 

Yeah. That’s creative. And you know, I think it takes some pressure off too, Katie, to your mention, doesn’t have to be a two-hour coffee meeting. If you have the regularity that you mentioned, Marcia, then it takes the pressure off that. Well, we don’t have to finish this today, right? And you have the freedom then to say, well, I need to go now. 

I think the expectations are definitely not a calculated machine necessarily, but at any stage. So right now, I’m in the midst of raising young children. And so, I’ve been amazed over the last several years how the Spirit brings in and brings out people at just the right need, at just the right margin in my life. 

And by respecting and honoring their schedule, I just throw out there, hey, I have a couple hours during this week. What does your schedule look like? It gives a simple boundary. A walk is always great. Meeting somewhere, a phone call sometimes. If it’s a phone call and it’s an urgent need, you know, I’d love to talk to you for 15 minutes. 

Does this work? And you’re honoring your time and you’re honoring their time. You really are. Exactly. And I think Katie spoke to another thing that I had written down was just the sense of freshness. So, if you’re really trying to see more than just one dimension of this person, then freshness in the way that you interact. 

So maybe it’s a walk. She mentioned walking and talking a couple of times. Maybe it is sometimes a coffee shop, but sometimes maybe it’s in your home or maybe it’s in their home or maybe it’s a service project together. Or maybe it’s just a project together. That sense of like trying to build more than just one dimension to this relationship. 

Which helps that person see that they’re not just this issue that Marcia and I always talk about. But Marcia sees me as a companion to run errands with. Yes. Or somebody that wants my opinion on something. Or something of that nature. Am I hitting right? 

Or let’s come along. Let’s go visit a widow together. Yes. Or let’s come along and do whatever. One of the young sisters that I meet with is a teacher, and so I like to get into her room. I like to volunteer if I can, and just, you know, see her hard kids. Nice. But get into that place. Or young moms getting into their home and making meals together. 

Watching her interaction with her children. She can describe it, but when you are there watching it, you get a lot more understanding. I have learned that prayer is essential. I always try to keep in view that the Holy Spirit is the teacher. God is the master teacher. I’m just the teacher’s aide in the classroom. 

I’m just trying to come alongside with what he’s doing. And I’m not the agent of change. The Holy Spirit is the agent of change. I’m just trying to come along with what the Holy Spirit is doing. What’s he trying to shape in her life? What’s he trying to teach her? What’s he trying to bring out? What’s he trying to affirm in her? 

Am I coming alongside of that? And that’s just a prayer component of just being in prayer. And I try to not only pray for them, but I try to pray with them in every session and invite them to pray for me as well. What mentoring has taught me is actually mentoring is more about exposing my areas to grow than whatever need, decision, situation a mentee may have. 

I think the prayer, the support, filling my trust bucket during those times of mentoring has been so, so key. And like I mentioned before, it’s amazing how the Spirit just moves. Certain sisters, certain couples in and out of lives at just the right time to expose Katie Miller. And it’s not just that specific sister or that relationship. 

It’s unbelievable. The curriculum isn’t just for them. The curriculum is for me. For sure. It really is. He’s working to form my life. It’s so humbling and honoring to me when someone does enter into that relationship. I really believe that anyone can mentor. Anyone can offer encouragement. Don’t feel like there’s a barrier or a lie you’re believing in yourself that you cannot go alongside a sister and support. The gospel is too important for that. 

And I might say the first and most important thing to the whole thing is show up. Am I right? Presence. Right. Presence. So much happens just by nature of you showing up at a place where relationships can happen. Yeah. Right. And God will use you to these ends and purposes after the manner of Jesus, without maybe your cognizant notice. 

Right. It’s not what you know. It’s that you care. Absolutely. For sure. Sisters, this has been really helpful. Again, I think it’s motivating just to hear the interest and the intrigue and the excitement in your voices as well as the equipment piece of providing some real tangible things, pointing people to Jesus, listening for internal scripts, having good questions, listening carefully so that we can fill in that Mad Lib, right? 

But just even to close, a bit aspirational. I love this, and this has been said before, but I just love this connection that all of us have been mentored by people. We’re all spiritually formed by people. Marcia, you could probably list a half a dozen people names, right? And then if we go to all of those 15 or 20 people and they could give their list of the beautiful cycle, right? 

What do we have all the way back to who? Jesus. Jesus’s example has been lived out tangibly and physically for generations. Yeah. And we show up to continue that transfer, don’t we? To further generations. Thank you, each one. And to our listeners, thanks for being with us. And we trust and pray that this blesses you and encourages you to mentor and disciple.